Alchemist Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 That's a scary and probably a realistic scenario considering the nut jobs in charge of them across the border. As per some reports Pak is churning out a lot of nukes and probably already has a numerical superiority over India even if they are qualitatively inferior. For once we need to stop blaming Pakistan and look at ourself. No way these attacks are planned and executed from Pakistan without any internal help. We need to weed out people from within who help, directly or indirectly, these activities. If that means making particular community sad, so be it. There is no sugar coating to it. We need to bring back laws like POTA (prevention of terrorist activities) to all the states. Learn from US, They have gone well beyond in their efforts to make things safe. On their way, they are facing their own public's wrath. But they are sticking to the plan and executing it. No minority or majority community.
seedhi Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Most people simply don't realize what a first strike would mean to India. We will go down in a heap. They think Pak strikes first' date=' we lose a few million people then push a button and wipe out Pakistan. The result of a first strike is just incomprehensible, ask the Japs.[/quote']Err.. no. Pakistan's nukes are at most of 30-40 kiloton range and can probably decimate an area of upto 10 sqkm per device. Its impossible for them to take out the entire civil-military leadership at once. Moreover, the movements of ballistic missiles by pakistan is constantly monitored, not only by India but the USA, Russia etc. Any untoward movement will trigger instant alarm bells. I do not advocate war immediate war with pakistan, but there is no need to be mortally afraid of their nukes.
zen Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 @rett for ridiculing Indian Armed Forces. Have you ever met even a single Indian Army man in your life? I have lost one in my family and some are holding responsible positions in defence projects. I am not claiming we are at the same level as China or USA.. but ridiculing commitment of our armymen is simply not done - when there have been countless examples of their sacrifice. Bhai, where have I ridiculed indian armed forces? I credited them for ripping Pak .... It should be understood that when I say Indians are weak, it mainly refers to the decision makers, the politicians and general population that is more worried about it's day to day activities I don't know why you are making such ridiculous assumptions? I even said that if civilians can't stand up for the country then they should not expect defense services to die for them. I can't be posting same stuff again and again (and I m typing on an iPad), somethings should be understood :icflove:
zen Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Err.. no. Pakistan's nukes are at most of 30-40 kiloton range and can probably decimate an area of upto 10 sqkm per device. Its impossible for them to take out the entire civil-military leadership at once. Moreover, the movements of ballistic missiles by pakistan is constantly monitored, not only by India but the USA, Russia etc. Any untoward movement will trigger instant alarm bells. I do not advocate war immediate war with pakistan, but there is no need to be mortally afraid of their nukes. Finally it appears as if someone who knows something is speaking :two_thumbs_up: As I said don't over estimate Pakistan :--D
kabira Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Kabira, a few decades ago the civil services in India were both educated and strong. They used to be a good counter balance to the minister. the minster's role was policy making and the role of the civil services was to implement and administer the policy. Then the ministers and the political parties on purpose dismantled the bureaucracy and civil services and filled them with lazy ****s who were very poorly educated. This was done in order for the politicians to take complete control of both policy making and administration. Now you can see the results. An example of this is Maran approving the actual licenses to Aircel. How is that his role? It is a purely administrative order which should have been passed by the head of the DoT. hope you see what I mean. I am all for reservation in government jobs, but you have to raise the educational bar. People should be expected to be more qualified than just passing the IAS which means a good degree from one of the top Indian Universities etc. This is how you build an institution. In our case rebuild because they dismantled rather corruptly what was in place when the British left the Country. Few years ago?? Were was I?? Sorry don't agree with you. Since day of Chacha Nehru, bureaucrats have been corrupt, ofcourse not all, but majority. Whatever we are today, is due to those few good ppl. Year 92 or 93, my town had superb Collector Shri S Jagadeesan. He meant business. He wanted to get rid of shops and homes that were illegal. He started to do that. I know this because My uncles shop was bulldozed as he did not have legal papers etc. But he was transferred. He took as commissioner as Urban Development in Surat 97. He completely changed Surat. Surat once was dirtiest city in India, had plague etc. but today its very clean city. Ask any Surti and they will talk about this guy. http://persmin.nic.in/ersheet/MultipleERS.asp?HiddenStr=01GJ021700 Right now Modi has kept him for Narmada projects, and previously he was incharge of Petroleum.. These guys have power to change the system. They do. If we have 50% of them doing their job, our system will improve by leaps and bounds. Another example, when I was studying BE, I had this friend (well not close friend), his dad was IPS officer in Ahmedabad. This dude' whole aim was to appear for IPS and clear it and become IPS officer and make money. He openly used to talk about how corrupt his dad was. That was very sick to me and made me wonder, WTF, if thats why he is joining IPS, God save our country.
zen Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 To summarize: * Best way for Pak to carry out a nuke attack is through terrorist. (pak would know how to smuggle them into Ind) * terrorist attacks should not be taken lightly * Ind needs strong leadership * Ind needed to improve/ modernize all types of forces and design a system that passes information quickly. Improved coordination amongst various departments relating to national security * Elect strong leaders. Citizens needs to be more vocal and involved in matters relating to the nation.
maniac Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Pak is the least of our problems compared to the cancer we have internally...Please don't get me wrong...I am not talking about any religion,I am talking about the politicians. In 60 years of rule despite all the minority appeasement drama which has neither benefited lower-middleclass strata or neither the minorities. The sad truth is there are a lot of illeterate and poor muslims who are easily brainwashed into taking up terror at the same time a lot of lower and backward castes have taken up Naxalism and other forms of revolution There is a strong anti-India sentiment(Might be a bit too harsh) but lets call it lack of nationalism that has developed from the north-east which has been an ignored for far too long. Then there are people who vote for this or encourage this cancer and come up with pseudo-intellectual arguments.
maniac Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Painful things about our politics. Sonia Gandhi-She is atleast better than a bunch of pathetic leaders who portray her as the saviour of our nation just because the so called congress strong hold of backward and illetrate people will vote for her because they still think she is Indira Gandhi or her second coming. What are Rahul Gandhi's credentials for hyping him up as the future P.M? What are our president's credentials? Modi and Varun Gandhi are demonised by the media as communal forces where as congress has been responsible for most of the communal c***p in India.ps.I don't agree with Varun Gandhi's statements but as far as Modi goes when Rajiv *****hi can be P.M after the sikh riots why not Modi who has proven to be a visionary when it comes to regional development.People keep digging up 2002 but aren't the minorities prospering when the state prospers Where is the recognition for the only semi-capable p.m from congress P.V.N.rao where as useless Rajiv Gandhi gets the hype all the time. Call me a keyboard warrior but where else can a common man like me vent out his frustration about reality
MonishaSarabhai Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 why bother with solutions? the average Mumbaikar has become cynical and does not expect anything from this govt. he will quietly go to work today and the politicians will cal it "the spirit of Mumbai", laud his "resilience" and then move on to the next scam. not like anything different is going to happen this time. like someone had said, it is easier to be a terrorist than a common man. as a terrorist u can kill innocents, get killed, go to heaven n get 72 virgins. n if u do get caught, u will get royal treatment in an Indian jail.
gaurav92 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 These terrorists should be caught and immediately hanged to death or given a brutal death for killing many innocent lives, an immediate death would at least pester the evil doers and they will think about it before doing it next time around. Seriously Kasab should have been hanged to death by now or smacked in the balls 24 X 7. If these ****ers don't have any feelings when they kill some innocent lives, why the **** should we have mercy on these *******s :finger:
someone Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 Clearly there are many here who are quick to blame our intelligence agencies. Firstly, intelligence agencies are never to be thanked.If there isno attack occurs whom do you thank? But when there is an attack occurs we are constrained to find someone to blame. Secondly, we always blame the government and decide to go on war. But will be eliminate anything when we ourselves live in denial on the existance of homegrown terrosists. Thirdly, why never us? Arewe ever willing to scarifice our privacy(phonecalls,skype tapping), willing to accept inconvience caused by more random checking? I just do not think so which is why we always blame others(intelligence to Pakistan) rather than looking at our own selfishness at times.
yoda Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Being soft on terror definitely doesn't help. I understand our hands are tied regarding dealing with neighboring countries, but we surely don't need anyone's approval to clean house locally. I know it is easier said than done with our population, but people need to at least feel that something is being done.
ganeshran Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Nothing so arbitrary as numbers per year etc. They just have to continue doing their vest to stop any and all attempts. I agree. Their job is to prevent terror attacks and any failure to do so indicates a lack of effectiveness. There is no acceptable criteria of failure as far as intelligence agencies are concerned and lack of resources cannot be an excuse since security is of utmost concern. Simply wrong. It all depends on where Pakistan strikes first, if their first strike takes out the civilian and military leadership, the war is over. India will be in no position to do anything, that is a simple fact. No country has ever faced a first strike and gained experience on response. The only country which did surrendered in under 3 days. Secondly, their tactical response if you do manage to launch a strike would be to fall back. I will tell you one other thing if they do launch a first strike the whole world will step in and stop India from retaliating, the pressure on us will be unbearable, in their case like I said earlier it will be fait accompli. Absolutely wrong. This is not 1945 where a nuclear attack comes out of the blue and no one has a response ready. Liking the Japanese attack to the scenario between India and Pakistan is not right because here we have specific protocols in place including nuclear bunkers to protect the leadership if a war starts. Second strike capability is an important part of India's nuclear policy. Saying that we will simply fall in a heap is a misinformed statement. Though Pakistan has nuclear warheads it is at a disadvantage when it comes to deploying them. We have a missile defence program and our aircraft can engage their aircraft limiting their resources to launch an attack. There is also the option of preemptive attacks. This is not some wet dream of nuclear domination, it is a very plausible scenario which has been considered and planned for by the armed forces. The best response for the Indian government is to continue to strengthen intel, educate people and improve the police forces apart from obviously strengthening diplomacy. Our diplomacy at this moment consists of pleading with the US to talk to Pakistan, that is not true diplomacy. On the other hand the Pakistani diplomacy has always been to point out to the US that it is in the best interests of America to help them which is why they are rather more successful. In a negotiation diplomatic or otherwise you have to make the other party feel that their destiny is tied to yours and if you lose, they lose too. I didnt ask what should India do to prevent an attack. I asked what should India's response be if a Mumbai style attack is launched from Pakistani soil. If diplomacy is the sole response, what would prevent it from going from the same 26/11 route where Pakistan conducts a farcical trial against low level operatives? What other leverage do we use? Diplomacy is simply impotent if we dont have any other cards up our sleeve. I am not advocating war here. In fact if India launches an unprovoked attack against Pakistan I would vehemently oppose it. But the failure to retaliate in face of aggression is not ahimsa, it is simply cowardice. And there is no pragmatic or moral high ground that can justify cowardice.
someone Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 About surprise nuclear attack as questioned by ganeshran. Here is an excellent article which I agree with... "Massive blast in Jingorampur" "A mysterious blast has devastated large areas of Jingorampur. The blast which occurred at 10 AM caused the ground to shake and people in surrounding villages reported seeing a bright flash. People ran out their houses suspecting that an Earthquake had occurred. The district officials in the nearby city of Whacknagar said that although all communication had been cut off with Jingorampur - there was nothing to "be concerned about. This is a common occurrence due to power failures in Summer. The official said everything was under control. He confirmed that an earthquake could have occurred as the town was near a seismic zone - but there were no reports of any deaths so far." A few hours later.. "Jingorampur flattened" Thousands of people have been killed in what appears to have been a massive earthquake in Jingorampur..relief efforts are on..The central government is seized of the matter and an ex gratia payment of Rs 10,000 for the families of the bereaved has been announced." The next day "Death and misery in Jingorampur Quake" "Eyewitnesss reported a blast and many people have been severely burned. Even people on fields have been killed. "I was reminded of pictures of the tsunami" said one witness. Jingorampur is located 400 Km from the coast. and a tsunami has been ruled out." Some people have blamed the Army which had an ammunition dump in the area. An army rescue team member denied this. Asked why the Army team were seen wearing protective suits and masks the response was because the disaster was caused by a nuclear bomb explosion" A day later.. "Has Jingorampur been nuked?" "Reports from the Army and defence ministry sate that the disaster was caused by a nuclear explosion. NGOs were quick to blame the Atomic Energy Commission in India which is known to have a poor safety record. A demonstration in Delhi to protest against slow relief efforts was lathi charged by the police. One protester blamed Pakistan for the disaster. This was rejected by the minister of state for lame excuses. Anti national elements of the right wing are trying to harm the peace process." One week later... "It has been confirmed that Jingorampur has been devastated by a nuclear bomb. A high power governmental enquiry has been constituted, headed by retired chief justice Blahblah to try and establish the source of the bomb. In the meantime the government has asked the people to maintain communal harmony. It thanked the government of Pakistan for its offer of aid, and rejected reports in the US media that a rogue Pakistani nuclear bomb had been exploded. "The US has so many bombs - it could have been a US bomb" said a minister - not wishing to be named"" Four days later "Sehwag dropped from Cricket tour of Australia due to injury" "Price of kerosene not to be raised even as Oil prices rise to $120 a barrel" "TV returns to Jingopura - the first signs of normality".. Any opinion??
akshayxyz Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I agree. Their job is to prevent terror attacks and any failure to do so indicates a lack of effectiveness. There is no acceptable criteria of failure as far as intelligence agencies are concerned and lack of resources cannot be an excuse since security is of utmost concern. So you are saying divert all the funds and efforts towards security? What about others who are losing lives due to poverty, health/diseases, natural disasters.. is your life more important than theirs? or more important than those who would die on the border ( people advocating retaliatory attacks/operations). I am not suggesting to ignore the security altogether, but there has to be a balance between allocating your resources to various problems. and there are people who are trying to best of their abilities.
Guest Gunner Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Err.. no. Pakistan's nukes are at most of 30-40 kiloton range and can probably decimate an area of upto 10 sqkm per device. Its impossible for them to take out the entire civil-military leadership at once. Moreover, the movements of ballistic missiles by pakistan is constantly monitored, not only by India but the USA, Russia etc. Any untoward movement will trigger instant alarm bells. I do not advocate war immediate war with pakistan, but there is no need to be mortally afraid of their nukes. Sorry sir, I agree with your larger point that we shouldn't be mortally afraid of Pakistan however I do disagree with a couple of things: A) You are assuming the launch of just one nuke of 30-40 kilotons, a first strike could also mean 10 simultaneous launches. You are probably aware that though we are working on interceptor missiles at the moment we aren't there yet to stop even 2 out of the 10 from penetrating us. B) What is the loss of life if there is a devastation at point 0 of 10 sq kms and radiation effect for another 100 sq kms? Essentially that is about the size of New Delhi. No one has the experience to deal with that kind of damage because it will be the largest nuke strike (far larger than the ones in Japan). Therefore I disagree with your view that we will be up and about business after taking a strike at our heart of such magnitude. However, I would sya that India abandon its platitudes about no first use because it is a nonsense of a policy. What does it even mean? Does it mean that the GoI is willing to lose 20 million Indians to a Pak first strike? My point is that if we have to deal with a pak nuke attack we must have a pre-emptive strike policy, it is the only workable option. We neither have the political will nor the gumption to do it. Since you are an analytical man, I ask you this question, what is the threshold for your PM to take the critical decision to launch? I think you will able to answer that in relation to POTUS or the Russian President but no one has a cluse what will be the answer with respect to the Indian Prime Minister.
Guest Gunner Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I agree. Their job is to prevent terror attacks and any failure to do so indicates a lack of effectiveness. There is no acceptable criteria of failure as far as intelligence agencies are concerned and lack of resources cannot be an excuse since security is of utmost concern. Where did I talk about lack of resources? You are just looking for someone to blame to let out your anger at this incident and the bunny is the intelligence services. There are larger issues here like policy making etc which are more critical and which you are not addressing at all. Absolutely wrong. This is not 1945 where a nuclear attack comes out of the blue and no one has a response ready. Liking the Japanese attack to the scenario between India and Pakistan is not right because here we have specific protocols in place including nuclear bunkers to protect the leadership if a war starts. Second strike capability is an important part of India's nuclear policy. Saying that we will simply fall in a heap is a misinformed statement. Though Pakistan has nuclear warheads it is at a disadvantage when it comes to deploying them. We have a missile defence program and our aircraft can engage their aircraft limiting their resources to launch an attack. There is also the option of preemptive attacks. This is not some wet dream of nuclear domination, it is a very plausible scenario which has been considered and planned for by the armed forces. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: You really are being too optimistic about this. Let me reiterate "No one has the survival experience of a first strike other than the japanese and they lasted 3 days". The year whether it is 1945 or 2011 is irrelevant, you (i.e. India) are just as powerless against a nuke strike now as you would have been then. All the interceptor programmes are not yet fully operational. Do you know the response time to a missile launch from the Pak border? It is about 7 secs or somehting if my memory serves me right. The Arrow missile defence system failed the test!! DO you understand what that means? Aircrafts and all that on't even come into the picture. There is nothing misinformed about syaing that any country which has actually suffered a nuclear strike at its heart will go down in a heap. You are expecting resilience after instant annihilation of 500,000 people. I am sorry you are just talking through your hat. You simply are not able to visualise the magnitude of this at all. There is simply nothing plausible in what you have stated above. I didnt ask what should India do to prevent an attack. I asked what should India's response be if a Mumbai style attack is launched from Pakistani soil. If diplomacy is the sole response, what would prevent it from going from the same 26/11 route where Pakistan conducts a farcical trial against low level operatives? What other leverage do we use? Diplomacy is simply impotent if we dont have any other cards up our sleeve. I am not advocating war here. In fact if India launches an unprovoked attack against Pakistan I would vehemently oppose it. But the failure to retaliate in face of aggression is not ahimsa, it is simply cowardice. And there is no pragmatic or moral high ground that can justify cowardice. 1. Diplomacy is your only answer and as I have reiterated many times in this thread your foreign policy and diplomacy sucks. You are no where near the bulge bracket of global diplomatic powers. 2. Wrong, it is pragmatic. I would rather not fight a war which will cause millions of death and render us beggars forever. There are other possibilities of retaliation which we can discuss though.
ganeshran Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 India used diplomacy against Pakistan after the Mumbai attacks - what is the end result? How many people were punished? The mastermind roams freely till date. In the advent of another attack what different diplomacy will be used by the Indian government? I am curious to hear about other forms of retaliation.
asterix Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 This is a tale of two brothers. One is doing well in his life and the other is not doing that well.You cannot wish away the problems of the brother who is not doing well as it can affect your family too. The best way is to help the struggling brother to make progress in his life and and starts valuing the brotherly relations (increasing massive amount of trade contacts). This way the struggling brother will (hopefully) sort out his own problems and start taking actions to prevent any future harm to their brotherly relations..
ganeshran Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: You really are being too optimistic about this. Let me reiterate "No one has the survival experience of a first strike other than the japanese and they lasted 3 days". The year whether it is 1945 or 2011 is irrelevant, you (i.e. India) are just as powerless against a nuke strike now as you would have been then. All the interceptor programmes are not yet fully operational. Do you know the response time to a missile launch from the Pak border? It is about 7 secs or somehting if my memory serves me right. The Arrow missile defence system failed the test!! DO you understand what that means? Aircrafts and all that on't even come into the picture. There is nothing misinformed about syaing that any country which has actually suffered a nuclear strike at its heart will go down in a heap. You are expecting resilience after instant annihilation of 500,000 people. I am sorry you are just talking through your hat. You simply are not able to visualise the magnitude of this at all. There is simply nothing plausible in what you have stated above. Bollocks. When Japan was attacked the whole nuclear war concept never existed. No one knew what had to be done and neither did they have any sort of comparable retaliatory capability. This scenario would be valid in today's age only if its a war between a nuclear and non nuclear armed country. In India's case this simply does not hold true. Nuclear war is very much a reality for us. The army leadership is aware of this and a lot of planning goes into planning retaliation in case of nuclear attack. It is not something which will strike us out of the blue and leave the armed forces clueless. There is also the option of a preemptive strike if we feel Pakistan is going to fire its nukes. Given the absence of a missile defense system there is no chance for them to intercept any such attack. But if you say war is not the only option, I would be happy to listen to the other alternatives. I am no fan of death and destruction either and if there are options for India to effectively retaliate I would be more than happy to support their use. But please don't list diplomacy as the only available solution. We already saw how effective it turned out to be in the case of Mumbai attacks.
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