akshayxyz Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 BTW how can we say Raina is cr@p when you have the great SRT snd VVS are failing here as well? Raina needs to sort out his short ball problem' date= otherwise he is ok. I would say the same regrding Mukund and Kohli and Rohit. M. Vijay was fine before he screwed up his technique/temperament. Do you realize the circular logic here - you are using SRT/VVS - performance as benchmark for - Raina, and their own performance.
Guest Gunner Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Gunner' date=' this is not just about finding the guys of the same quality - that will never happen. I'd be happy with the next Azharuddin. Even that does not look realistic.[/quote'] Bumps, couple of points there: It always looks bad before the next good/great player comes along and secondly I really do think Rohit Sharma and Pujara have the goods. The rest I don't know but these two are good enough to average mid 40s which at the moment I would be happy to take. Great players just happen there is no process, there might be a 12 year old somewhere who will do it for us just like SRT did. We can't do much other than wait.
yoda Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Do you realize the circular logic here - you are using SRT/VVS - performance as benchmark for - Raina' date=' and their own performance.[/quote'] Cause the same Raina was hailed as the next greatest after the WI series. So all this knee jerk is based on this Eng series where even proven greats have failed. Nothing circular here.
Guest Gunner Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Indeed. Murali Vijay' date=' Abhinav Mukund, Suresh Raina, Virat Kohli...its not like we've not given young batsmen chances in Test matches. Fact is, they are all ****. Sure, we can kick out the senior trio today - it isn't going to turn these new players into Test class batsmen. I mean, Ganguly retired three years ago - he was a good Test batsman but not in the Sachin/Dravid class, and yet we haven't even found a replacement for him in these three years despite the no.6 spot being vacant.[/quote'] Raina is not a test player unless he significantly reworks his technique, almost everyone concurs on this. Vijay started fine and lost his way, I don't blame him though, he can't spend his life being reserve opener for team India and wait next to the phone when he can make **** loads of money playing the IPL. Lastly, I have repeated quite a few times on this thread. get out of the "replacement" mode, we ain't gonna be able to replace anyone. We really need to throw some of the younger guys in like Sharma, Rahane, Pujara, Mukund alongwith Gambhir, VVS and Sehwag, this is how a new team will develop.
NareshK Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I dont think having a new team will work either. What's absolutely important is to prepare pitches in India which assist bounce, pace and seam bowling and these pitches have to be played on regularly in domestic cricket. Not necessarily for tests because India should always prepare wickets to suit their advantage. I dont think sending an A team for a couple of weeks every once in a while or having new guys like Raina, Kohli learn how to play in overseas conditions when they are playing tests will work. They will usually cost India important matches by the time they get used to playing on those pitches and our record will again become like the 90s. If BCCI is serious about India winning consistently abroad, there is no alternative to preparing pitches which assist pace bowling in India. Otherwise, I dont see future teams doing any damage overseas. BCCI also has the resources unlike other boards to get experts and curators come from other countries and prepare pitches like that in India. So this is something they have to start looking at right away.
yoda Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 ^^I though we can't create bouncy wickets due to soil conditions or some shyte like that. :dontknow:
Karan114 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Lastly' date=' I have repeated quite a few times on this thread. get out of the "replacement" mode, we ain't gonna be able to replace anyone. We really need to throw some of the younger guys in like Sharma, Rahane, Pujara, Mukund alongwith Gambhir, VVS and Sehwag, this is how a new team will develop.[/quote'] We are already throwing in younger guys - not just because of the no.6 vacancy but also because of frequent injuries to the senior guys. You are making it sound like younger batsmen aren't getting chances when that is far from the case.
Guest Gunner Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 We are already throwing in younger guys - not just because of the no.6 vacancy but also because of frequent injuries to the senior guys. You are making it sound like younger batsmen aren't getting chances when that is far from the case. R Sharma - 0 tests Rahane - 0 tests Pujara - 3 tests Kohli - 3 tests Mukund - 5 tests You rate those as fair number of chances, when we have had this situation for almost 2 years now to look forward to?
yoda Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 We are already throwing in younger guys - not just because of the no.6 vacancy but also because of frequent injuries to the senior guys. You are making it sound like younger batsmen aren't getting chances when that is far from the case. Well may be they will do better if they know that they are the future and not just fighting for a backup spot or one late order spot.
NareshK Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 ^^I though we can't create bouncy wickets due to soil conditions or some shyte like that. :dontknow: If I remember correctly in IPL, some of the games played in Kochi, Hyderabad and Mumbai helped the pace bowlers quite well. I dont think its impossible for experts to prepare and maintain these types of pitches for longer formats as well.
Karan114 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 R Sharma - 0 tests Rahane - 0 tests Pujara - 3 tests Kohli - 3 tests Mukund - 5 tests You rate those as fair number of chances, when we have had this situation for almost 2 years now to look forward to? But that's not an issue of not giving young players chances, but giving the wrong players chances. Raina is playing his 14th Test, which is more than enough opportunity for a young player if he is good enough (Raina clearly isn't, of course).
Guest Gunner Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 But that's not an issue of not giving young players chances' date=' but giving the wrong players chances. Raina is playing his 14th Test, which is more than enough opportunity for a young player if he is good enough (Raina clearly isn't, of course).[/quote'] Raina being selected for this tour after what transpired in South Africa against a good pace attack boggles the mind.
NareshK Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Raina being selected for this tour after what transpired in South Africa against a good pace attack boggles the mind. How are you going to get players who are good against quality pace and bounce when the ball doesnt raise above knee high in India ? Its not Raina's fault. Get someone else and he will fail as well. They need to learn how to play the short ball in domestic cricket itself and they can only do that if the nature of pitches change in India. Otherwise, replacing x with y cant make any difference.
Karan114 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Well may be they will do better if they know that they are the future and not just fighting for a backup spot or one late order spot. I don't really agree with this argument. In most decent teams (not just India), there is going to be a settled core of players, and you have to force yourself in through weight of performance in the opportunities you get. As an example, Jonathan Trott was overlooked for Ravi Bopara through the 2009 Ashes, till he was finally given his Test debut in the final Test. Trott took his opportunity by smashing a hundred in that game and has made a Test spot his own. Bopara has only gotten a chance two years on after Trott got injured at Trent Bridge. If Raina was good enough, he would have scored a stack load of runs and made a spot his own after 14 Tests. I don't agree at all that he isn't doing well enough because he is fighting for a late order spot. Do you seriously think this guy can succeed in a higher order spot against a newer ball with his technique?
rkt.india Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 I think we need to have a settled India A team, like England Lions and give them more exposure to away conditions. Any Indian batsman can score runs in India, but it is the away tours where we will have problem again like we had in 90s if these guys are not exposed to those conditions. We still have 1-2 years for SRT, RD, and VVS to play and in between that we can plan about India A tours. WE need to have a settled 16 squad of India A and give them more matches in the next one to two years and then pick who is better one by one when greats retire. We will not get as good as replacement. It is impossible get another SRT or RD, but still we can get good players with this approach. Our fast bowling department needs to be worked upon too.
kabira Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 Raina being selected for this tour after what transpired in South Africa against a good pace attack boggles the mind. actually he did well in Windies, did well in Barbados. It was always him or Kohli for England tour. He took the opportunity. I have high hopes on Pujara. He is yet not corrupted with IPL and T20s, same with Rahane. Both havent done much in IPL.
The Realist Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 The performances rather than getting better as the tour goes on are getting worse. All out in 60 overs and Eng 150+ without loss. Time to start dismantling the sacred cows. Too many passengers and too many living off past achievements. And in terms of results it cannot get any worse than this tour, 4-0 is on the cards and even County teams have pumelled this team. Let the rebuliding commence - if results are poor for a while then so be it but younger players need to build up the experience.
Trichromatic Posted August 14, 2011 Posted August 14, 2011 In an earlier thread (http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?p=1598568#post1598568) I mentioned that the cycle for this team is over and we will need to build a new one. It will mean some tough months and years but eventually a good solid team. I know many of you want to continue holding on to past heroes and don't want to let go but quite honestly this is the moment to start making the changes. This is not a knee jerk reaction etc, it is time to put an old racehorse down. Your thoughts please. I don't know how long will they remain no 1 and I don't think anyone can predict that. Most of the teams are under transition and England is one team which has completed it. They have a bunch of young players who can play cricket for next 6-7 years. They have good bench strength especially with bowlers. They have used lesser number of players in last few years. Other teams haven't settled down yet. You don't know what's their best XI. It will take few years for each team to build their top XI. SA is one team which has good mix of young and senior players, but they have their own limitations. India is dependent mostly on seniors and transition hasn't started yet. England has ability to play competitive cricket for long time. Even if they lose no 1 spot for some time, they will remain in top 3. This is where India falls behind everyone. Transition hasn't started yet. Everyone says that once these batsmen will retire, we will find replacements. If not that good, then at least decent replacements. Unfortunately that's not so easy. Look at the current. After Ganguly's retirement, we are looking for no 6 batsman for over 3 years and we haven't found a single batsman who could fill that position. Why? I don't know. But this is certainly not a good sign for Indian team. Yuvraj and Raina who were supposed to talented players in middle order are not the test players and it can be easily seen with their performances. I still find it difficult to imagine how we will fill no 3, no 4 and no 5 positions suddenly. It will take years to try few youngsters, then it will take time for 1 batsman to settle down in that role and then some time for him to get used to away conditions. Overall it might be a very condition for the team if they change it suddenly. I think selectors should plan for all players. They haven't been doing so for any player especially for bowlers. There are few areas which requires focus of selectors. It's necessary that they chose which matches seniors will play and which they won't. Start giving chances to youngster from now at least in selected matches. They need to groom youngsters for 4 positions atm. It's not easy. But delay won't help either. Bowling is a bigger worry. We haven't found a leader of attack yet. We were too much dependent on Zaheer Khan and it seems his time is over. Selectors keep on going for those bowlers who have failed consistently and don't play many FC matches. It's necessary that there also they give chances to young players who are willing to join the team. At this moment and with this selection policy, there seems to almost guaranteed place for Ishant and Sreesanth in the team which is not good considering that bowling attack is so weak. Just like batting, bowlers are needed to be found for different roles. For leader of the attack, India must consistently give chances to youngsters who can bowl faster for sessions and have wicket taking ability (even if they are able to do in domestic cricket). Then for second seamer position, those who have more control should be tried and tested. PK fills the gap of 3rd seamer. Most important dept is spin bowling. I don't know what's the reason for lack of quality spinners now. If Mishra is our best spinner, then certainly it's not a good situation. What kind of pitches are given in domestic cricket? They need to provide turners and not flat pitches so that we can have spinners.
Guest Gunner Posted August 14, 2011 Posted August 14, 2011 ^^Ask the selectors what is India's backup XI. There will be a deafening silence. And that is where the trouble begins.
Trichromatic Posted August 14, 2011 Posted August 14, 2011 ^^Ask the selectors what is India's backup XI. There will be a deafening silence. And that is where the trouble begins. Ask Rajiv Shukla. He will always give an answer.
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now