Dhoni's luck has run out

[Sachinism]

Maybe a lil luck was involved, but there are bigger, much bigger issues at hand

[rkt.india]

You must be Kidding there' date=' Ganguly for the 95% of his Reign never had the services of Dhoni and Gambhir, Dravid , Kumble hadnt had the service of Gambhir too.[/quote'] What Dravid was there all through his captaincy. Dravid had poor form in his own captaincy. Gambhir you can say, but Gambhir cannot make for Kumble and Bhajji good bowling. And Dhoni what are you saying, service of Dhoni, People here dont even think he has any assured place in 11.:--D

[Raghav_12]

Bhai' date=' we lost badly in that series, dont be in any illusion that we won Perth. We did better in SA, lost first test but dominated next 2 tests and you forget CB series win in Aus. [b']We had not won a test series in NZ in years, we won there. We could have won all 3 tests in WI if not for rain. We were continuously losing in SL, there we at least drew the series. We never had drawn a series in SA too before. These are achievements which happened rare. Other than that 2 big ICC tournament wins as well. And look Dhoni as a weaker team in comparison to Ganguly and Dravid had, especially bowling. BHajji is not turning out good performance, Kumble has retired. Two of the best bowler of thsi decade. He even does not have a good no. 6 batsman like Ganguly.

When you have to showcase a series victory against current NZ team to prove credentials of Dhoni's captaincy, you yourself would know how hollow these credentials are. Even CURRENT Pakistan team, which has been in all sort of doldrums for some time now, won a series there with identical margin. 2. We did not lose Australia series badly. Even an Australian fan would not say so. Series victory was literally taken away by a certain Bucknor. 3. On last SA tour also we won a test match and was in a situation to force victory at Capetown like this time. 4. But rain, last England tour India would have won by margin of 2-0 not by 1-0. Now try to realize how many light-years there btw 2-0 and 0-4. 5. You must be kidding if you say Dhoni has weaker team with respect to Dravid and Ganguly. Olly area where team is weaker now, is wicketkeeping. :cantstop:. During most of his captaincy Dhoni has had resurgent Sachin and Laxman, Sehwag, Gambhir and Zaheer at their peaks, . None of other Indian captain has had luxury of such stable opening pair as Dhoni did. Dravid has been as usual. 6. I did not forget CB series win. My observations were about test matches. I still have no doubts on Dhoni's credentials as ODI captain. For test matches also I am not in favour of Dhoni being removed as captain immediately. But selectors should be prepared to take a call sometime soon. Overall if you say that drawing series' in SA and SL mean successful tours, I would say i differ from you on definition of successful tours.

[rkt.india]

When you have to showcase a series victory against current NZ team to prove credentials of Dhoni's captaincy, you yourself would know how hollow these credentials are. Even CURRENT Pakistan team, which has been in all sort of doldrums for some time now, won a series there with identical margin. 2. We did not lose Australia series badly. Even an Australian fan would not say so. Series victory was literally taken away by a certain Bucknor. 3. On last SA tour also we won a test match and was in a situation to force victory at Capetown like this time. 4. But rain, last England tour India would have won by margin of 2-0 not by 1-0. Now try to realize how many light-years there btw 2-0 and 0-4. 5. You must be kidding if you say Dhoni has weaker team with respect to Dravid and Ganguly. Olly area where team is weaker now, is wicketkeeping. :cantstop:. During most of his captaincy Dhoni has had resurgent Sachin and Laxman, Sehwag, Gambhir and Zaheer at their peaks, . None of other Indian captain has had luxury of such stable opening pair as Dhoni did. Dravid has been as usual. 6. I did not forget CB series win. My observations were about test matches. I still have no doubts on Dhoni's credentials as ODI captain. For test matches also I am not in favour of Dhoni being removed as captain immediately. But selectors should be prepared to take a call sometime soon. Overall if you say that drawing series' in SA and SL mean successful tours, I would say i differ from you on definition of successful tours.

1. Blaming Bucknor is a stupid thing for our loss. we were thrashed at MCG and were catching all the way at SCG. Perth was a win but then again struggled at Adelaide. 2. Overseas test series win is a win in alien conditions. We even used to lose in Zim some time back remember let alone winning in NZ. 3. We lost 2-1. This is a fact after winning 1st test and lost ODI series very badly too. 4. We won 1-0 in England. Rain and Dhoni saved us at Lords otherwise the story of the series could have been different and Remember it was Dhoni who people are blaming now who stayed between draw and loss then. Oval was a high scoring draw and whatever you can say, we were not gonna win that with our bowling on a flat track. 5. What are you talking about resurgent Sachin, VVS. Did not they score before? Think about why Sachin started scoring again after some dry time because he was given time and environment in the dressing room always helps in concentrating compare to Chappal time. According to you we also had resurgent Karthick, now Gambhir. Sehwag was alkways there during Ganguly's time. Zak has missed more matches than what he played and still absence of strike spinner Kumble and effective Bhajji cannot be fille dby one single bowler. 6. You are hoping selectors will remove him from test captaincy. It is the selectors who are first to blame rather than captain. Selection of inured players over and over again is not excusable. Give me a single name who replace Dhoni as a captain and WK. 7. You need to understand the kind of resources we have apart form SRT, VVS only batsmen who preformed consistently in last 1 year, RD has been a failure since 2007 apart from just concluded WI and ENG tour, Zak who has been more out than on the field, and a little bit of Ishant, we do not have good enough players to represent India in tests right now in Indian team and still we had such fantastic 3 years. It is very easy to blame or credit any individual, but important thing is to look into reality. I am not just arguing. It is a fact and most ex-cricketer and cricket experts will say the same. WE have been fortunate that even after having a rubbish team, we have seen a long winning rope as a team both in tests and ODIs for the last 3 years. Cause of concerns are bigger and deeper than just Dhoni. Any one who take place of Dhoni according to you will have to face these problems, firstly I do not see any one who right now can replace Dhoni or is better than Dhoni. If you think the tours I mentioned were not good for India then your thinking is unrealistic and you are in illusion if you think we were actually that good. W were not that good as a team. This is a team which has some great players but overall is very poor. We were number one in test, but actually our team is nit what you would look in a number one team. The kind of team we have and had, these tours were certainly good for us. Remember on SL tour, there were no main bowler was there, no Zak or Bhajji.

[putrevus]

Dhoni has been exposed both as batsmen and captain on this tour.

[rkt.india]

Dhoni has been exposed both as batsmen and captain on this tour.

SRT and Laxman are also exposed as batsmen on this tour.:winky: PS: Dhoni is not a specialist batsman, He bats at 7 and is a WK/batsman. Yes his captaincy left a lot to be desired but with the resources he had, he has done quite good in last 3 years.

[Raghav_12]

1. Blaming Bucknor is a stupid thing for our loss. we were thrashed at MCG and were catching all the way at SCG. Perth was a win but then again struggled at Adelaide.

Let facts be remained facts. We had Australia at 150/6, when Bucknor struck first time (Symonds not out) and then it was India who took first innings lead. If you can show me how India was doing catch up job all the time, in that test, I would accept that my all other arguments are null and void in this thread.

2. Overseas test series win is a win in alien conditions. We even used to lose in Zim some time back remember let alone winning in NZ.

That wasn't some time back. That was LONG time back. Now don't start comparing Dhoni with the teams which were led by amateurs prince's of India. Didn't Pak also managed to win by same margin? Also don't forget, we could not win comfortably against NZ at home too.

3. We lost 2-1. This is a fact after winning 1st test and lost ODI series very badly too.

It was you who first told that we could have won WI tour by 3-0. Fact there is that we won series by 1-0. If you want to stick to facts let's agree to do so. Also fact is, We only drew our last series in SA and lost ODI.

4. We won 1-0 in England. Rain and Dhoni saved us at Lords otherwise the story of the series could have been different and Remember it was Dhoni who people are blaming now who stayed between draw and loss then. Oval was a high scoring draw and whatever you can say, we were not gonna win that with our bowling on a flat track.

Again you started with your assumptions..!! We had won one test with same bowling attack only.You are one of very few who think that India would have faced difficulty in winning that test match.

5. What are you talking about resurgent Sachin, VVS. Did not they score before? Think about why Sachin started scoring again after some dry time because he was given time and environment in the dressing room always helps in concentrating compare to Chappal time. According to you we also had resurgent Karthick, now Gambhir. Sehwag was alkways there during Ganguly's time. Zak has missed more matches than what he played and still absence of strike spinner Kumble and effective Bhajji cannot be fille dby one single bowler.

On one hand, you give credit to Dhoni when others perform, you don't blame Dhoni when others fail. I don't believe this,but just for the sake of argument I would say it is Dhoni's captaincy which is not allowing us to find a replacement of Dada at no. 6, even after three years. And resurgent Karthick?? and no doubt Gambhir has emerged as reliable batsman only in last 2-3 years.

6. You are hoping selectors will remove him from test captaincy. It is the selectors who are first to blame rather than captain. Selection of inured players over and over again is not excusable. Give me a single name who replace Dhoni as a captain and WK.

No. I told he should be given some more time. But we should be prepared as well.

7. You need to understand the kind of resources we have apart form SRT, VVS only batsmen who preformed consistently in last 1 year, RD has been a failure since 2007 apart from just concluded WI and ENG tour, Zak who has been more out than on the field, and a little bit of Ishant, we do not have good enough players to represent India in tests right now in Indian team and still we had such fantastic 3 years. It is very easy to blame or credit any individual, but important thing is to look into reality.

Team, that Dhoni had, has been best since the time I started watching cricket. Settled batting order. Second best pace bowler india ever had and add Ishant to that mix.

I am not just arguing. It is a fact and most ex-cricketer and cricket experts will say the same. WE have been fortunate that even after having a rubbish team, we have seen a long winning rope as a team both in tests and ODIs for the last 3 years. Cause of concerns are bigger and deeper than just Dhoni. Any one who take place of Dhoni according to you will have to face these problems, firstly I do not see any one who right now can replace Dhoni or is better than Dhoni.

Agree that we had fantastic three years, but to give credit to Dhoni for these three years is not fair. A good team was already shaping up during times of Ganguly, Dravid and Kumble. Dhoni just reaped dividends. I had started thinking that embarrassing defeats on away tour have become things of past, until this Dhoni' team produced most embarrassing of them.

[Raghav_12]

SRT and Laxman are also exposed as batsmen on this tour.:winky: PS: Dhoni is not a specialist batsman, He bats at 7 and is a WK/batsman. Yes his captaincy left a lot to be desired but with the resources he had, he has done quite good in last 3 years.

Because we didn't travel much in last three years. As I mentioned earlier as well, performance of Indian pitches should not be criterion for performance of Indian captains. Didn't Azhar had a run of four years where he didn't lose a single series? Till now Dhoni's away record is: 1. Defeated NZ by 1-0. Team whch was also beaten by Pak by same margin. 2. Defetaed BD (I don't care about margin) 3. Defeated WI by 1-0 3. Drawn SL 4. Drawn SA 5. Lost to England by 0-4. Compare that with Dravid's away Tours 1. Lost to SA by 2-1 2. Defeated WI - 1-0 3. Defeated Eng - 1-0 Hope I haven't miss any of Dravid's tour.

[rkt.india]

Let facts be remained facts. We had Australia at 150/6, when Bucknor struck first time (Symonds not out) and then it was India who took first innings lead. If you can show me how India was doing catch up job all the time, in that test, I would accept that my all other arguments are null and void in this thread. That wasn't some time back. That was LONG time back. Now don't start comparing Dhoni with the teams which were led by amateurs prince's of India. Didn't Pak also managed to win by same margin? Also don't forget, we could not win comfortably against NZ at home too. It was you who first told that we could have won WI tour by 3-0. Fact there is that we won series by 1-0. If you want to stick to facts let's agree to do so. Also fact is, We only drew our last series in SA and lost ODI. Again you started with your assumptions..!! We had won one test with same bowling attack only.You are one of very few who think that India would have faced difficulty in winning that test match. On one hand, you give credit to Dhoni when others perform, you don't blame Dhoni when others fail. I don't believe this,but just for the sake of argument I would say it is Dhoni's captaincy which is not allowing us to find a replacement of Dada at no. 6, even after three years. And resurgent Karthick?? and no doubt Gambhir has emerged as reliable batsman only in last 2-3 years. No. I told he should be given some more time. But we should be prepared as well. Team, that Dhoni had, has been best since the time I started watching cricket. Settled batting order. Second best pace bowler india ever had and add Ishant to that mix. Agree that we had fantastic three years, but to give credit to Dhoni for these three years is not fair. A good team was already shaping up during times of Ganguly, Dravid and Kumble. Dhoni just reaped dividends. I had started thinking that embarrassing defeats on away tour have become things of past, until this Dhoni' team produced most embarrassing of them.

But it was not settled on England tour. We never played our best 11 in England. Even when we play with 11, they were actually no 11. We never even drew a test series in SA. It was certainly a big foot step. Lead does not matter, if the team cannot bat well in second innings. Look at Adelaide test in 2003, Aus took lead, but still lost.

That wasn't some time back. That was LONG time back. Now don't start comparing Dhoni with the teams which were led by amateurs prince's of India. Didn't Pak also managed to win by same margin? Also don't forget, we could not win comfortably against NZ at home too.

Yeah we did not win comfortably against NZ at home, that is why I am saying this is not a great team. This is an ordinary team with 2-3 great players, nothing else, which performed exceptionally under Dhoni. Otherwise, it was same team under Kumble when we drew 2 tests against Aus. Kumble was captain in first test, we could just avoid defeat, Dhoni captain in 2nd we won, Kuble captian in 3rd another draw, Dhoni captain in 4ht we won. There were real differences in captaincy style of both too. He may be looked bit out sorts in England series, but I must nonstop much cricket has taken its toll. You should tell me one name who can replace Dhoni as captain.

[rkt.india]

Because we didn't travel much in last three years. As I mentioned earlier as well, performance of Indian pitches should not be criterion for performance of Indian captains. Didn't Azhar had a run of four years where he didn't lose a single series? Till now Dhoni's away record is: 1. Defeated NZ by 1-0. Team whch was also beaten by Pak by same margin. 2. Defetaed BD (I don't care about margin) 3. Defeated WI by 1-0 3. Drawn SL 4. Drawn SA 5. Lost to England by 0-4. Compare that with Dravid's away Tours 1. Lost to SA by 2-1 2. Defeated WI - 1-0 3. Defeated Eng - 1-0 Hope I haven't miss any of Dravid's tour.

So what are you trying to suggest. Draw in SA is biggest win for us, I would say. We may not win that series, but we dominated it in last 2 tests. I am not saying Dhoni is a great captain, but with this team, the result we have are we are fortunate to have those results. I would say only this thing.

[Raghav_12]

But it was not settled on England tour. We never played our best 11 in England. Even when we play with 11, they were actually no 11. We never even drew a test series in SA. It was certainly a big foot step. Lead does not matter, if the team cannot bat well in second innings. Look at Adelaide test in 2003, Aus took lead, but still lost. Yeah we did not win comfortably against NZ at home, that is why I am saying this is not a great team. This is an ordinary team with 2-3 great players, nothing else, which performed exceptionally under Dhoni. Otherwise, it was same team under Kumble when we drew 2 tests against Aus. Kumble was captain in first test, we could just avoid defeat, Dhoni captain in 2nd we won, Kuble captian in 3rd another draw, Dhoni captain in 4ht we won. There were real differences in captaincy style of both too. He may be looked bit out sorts in England series, but I must nonstop much cricket has taken its toll. You should tell me one name who can replace Dhoni as captain.

Do you still stand by your statement that we were doing catch up job all the time in SCG test match in 07? I have told repeatedly he should not be sacked just now (we can't be a Pakistan man :winky:), but other options should be looked at both for WK position (Away test tours) and for Captaincy. For captaincy, I think Gambhir can be an option.

[Raghav_12]

So what are you trying to suggest. Draw in SA is biggest win for us, I would say. We may not win that series, but we dominated it in last 2 tests. I am not saying Dhoni is a great captain, but with this team, the result we have are we are fortunate to have those results. I would say only this thing.

I don't undervalue a draw in SA. That was good achievement without being great. (In fact, the only good achievement by Dhoni on away test tours). I would put that draw equal to Dravid's win in Eng. But with this most embarrassing defeat, Dhoni doesn't come anyway closer to Dravid in terms of success on away tours.

[rkt.india]

Do you still stand by your statement that we were doing catch up job all the time in SCG test match in 07? I have told repeatedly he should not be sacked just now (we can't be a Pakistan man :winky:), but other options should be looked at both for WK position (Away test tours) and for Captaincy. For captaincy, I think Gambhir can be an option.

yes...we had lead in Ist innings, but remember that too because of SRT-bhajji parternship, our top order strugled and we were never in winning position at SCG. Umpiring decisions can go here and there. We saw how quite a few decisions went against us in recent England test series, even 3rd umpire made mistakes. Problem in this ENG series was, we never had our first eleven fully fit. Without Zak, our team is half who is more important for us even more than SRT, VVS, or RD. in 2007, we had full first 11. Zak is the biggest architect of us reaching no. 1, but lately his injureis harmed the team. Captain does not have any magic, he just uses whatever resources he has and what ever the best he can take out of them. I dont give whole credit to Dhoni too. I am just saying he played an important role in India reaching no. 1 in last 3 years along with Viru, Gambo, SRT, VVS, RD, Ishant, Zak, and Bhajji. Only these are the players we can count on, but even these players have not performed consistently or have been injured like Gambo has missed several tests in last 1-2 years and has been out of form in last one year, same is with Viru, RD was out of form for last 3 years, Zak has been having consistent injuries, Ishant too blows hot and cold. only SRT and VVS were the consistent performers who too did not perform in England. In a series like this, whole team needs to click together consistently to challenge a strong team.

[Raghav_12]

yes...we had lead in Ist innings' date= but remember that too because of SRT-bhajji parternship, our top order strugled and we were never in winning position at SCG. Umpiring decisions can go here and there. We saw how quite a few decisions went against us in recent England test series, even 3rd umpire made mistakes. Problem in this ENG series was, we never had our first eleven fully fit. Without Zak, our team is half who is more important for us even more than SRT, VVS, or RD. in 2007, we had full first 11. Zak is the biggest architect of us reaching no. 1, but lately his injureis harmed the team. Captain does not have any magic, he just uses whatever resources he has and what ever the best he can take out of them. I dont give whole credit to Dhoni too. I am just saying he played an important role in India reaching no. 1 in last 3 years along with Viru, Gambo, SRT, VVS, RD, Ishant, Zak, and Bhajji. Only these are the players we can count on, but even these players have not performed consistently or have been injured like Gambo has missed several tests in last 1-2 years and has been out of form in last one year, same is with Viru, RD was out of form for last 3 years, Zak has been having consistent injuries, Ishant too blows hot and cold. only SRT and VVS were the consistent performers who too did not perform in England. In a series like this, whole team needs to click together consistently to challenge a strong team.

I think there is no point in arguing thing after that "yes". If you think a team taking first innings lead,a team putting other team on ropes by reducing them to 150/6 on first day, is doing catch up job all the time, I would say there are DEEP difference in the way we understand cricket. On a final note, I am not saying that Dhoni is only to blame for this defeat. But over last two-three years he has been given way too much credit for India's success than he deserved.

[rkt.india]

I think there is no point in arguing thing after that "yes". If you think a team taking first innings lead,a team putting other team on ropes by reducing them to 150/6 on first day, is doing catch up job all the time, I would say there are DEEP difference in the way we understand cricket. On a final note, I am not saying that Dhoni is only to blame for this defeat. But over last two-three years he has been given way too much credit for India's success than he deserved.

we were always catching up because we were 1-0 behind. if 1-0 behind is not catching up than what is and then we were never in position to win, yes there were a few bad decisions, but our batsmen didnt apply in second innings.

[Sid]

I can be the captain too if Dhoni can :phehehe: Field placements like Munaf at Deep Mid Wicket, bowling choices like Vinay Kumar in the final over (In fact Vinay Kumar in the side at first place), and not to forget the dazzling 8 off 8 and that shot off one hand straight into the juggling hands of long off - debutante was a treat from Dhoni. Some goof ups behind the stumps, especially in the final over was :facepalm: All in all, Dhoni should be dropped from the side, the guy needs a break, he has been playing too much Kirkut, let him have some rest before he takes on the mantle for the all important CL :icflove:

Abe chup kar saale :finger:,match thread banana ban karo iska .

[gaurav92]

rkt yaar calm down. Ab dhoni ki tarafdaari karne mein aap bewakoof nazar aa rahe hain. Sorry to use that word bhai but your post doesn't make much sense :hehe:

[Late Cut]

Funny stuff here; So Dhoni (31) is a horrible batsman, even though he has the 4th highest average on this tour, a few runs behind Tendulkar(34) no less- so that means that Laxman (22), Gambhir(17), Mukund (16), Raina (13), and Sehwag (10!) are what, awesome? crappier? need to be fliushed down the toilet? It sure looks like you all are heaping blame on Dhoni, the same way some of you are saying that he was getting too much praise. So if Dhoni, as a batsman/wicketkeeper needs to be dropped for his "poor batting," what about the rest of the wonderful SPECIALIST Batsman? Enquring minds want to know. I'd love to have seen you all talk about Dhoni's replacement- Parthiv, Karthik etc. if they had played instead; I am sure they would have lit it up!!! :cantstop:

[Asoka]

@Late Cut Karthik is really good. He has won India a few matches. He is as good as/better than Dhoni. I won't be surprised if both he and Dhoni play in the XI after the trio retire.

[Pagalpanti]

1 bad series and Karthik is better than Dhoni??? :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: