The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 I authored a stinging critique of Einstein's SR. But nobody bothered to cite my work nor did anyone find it of any consequence to offer me a plum post in academia. Are you afflicted with the same problem, rage boy? PS: A long sequence of posts and no smileys? let that impotent rage out next post! That's quite understandable given your tenuous grasp of the subject. But, no we are quite different in this regard. Will wait for your next attempt at online psychoanalysis.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Is that what the forum policy says? Or is that how punjabi univ ke rage boys "logically deduce" rules? God, you're fun : ) Yeah, it was fun reading your online psychoanalysis. But like all good things in life, this must also stop. Got to go. Have fun!
akshayxyz Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Yes. but Creativity is based on a foundation of knowledge and experience.the foundation has to be there. when i say the best in the field , it means 1. they had the exceptional talent and aptitude to acquire skill levels higher than most. for example if a guy cannot handle or understand complex issues beyond a particular level, he will stay at that level. so one can say the saturation point for the exceptional people is much higher. 2. their skills have been refined to a exceptional world class level by years of experience, training and refinement at a high level. 3. their instincts for the field is natural and they often make excellent decisions. 4. they can handle complexity significantly better than others. 5. they are able to acquire an excellent strategic understanding of the field due to point 4 and 1. 6. they eventually as established players can come up with first rate work consistently. A "different way of thinking" allied to the above factors works well. Anyone can say they have a different approach. but you don't become einstein or newton just by being different for sake of it. Well put, especially the bold part. I can't recall of any major inventions/inventors (theories or physical inventions) - that came w/o sitting on the shoulders or previous giants or w/o working with contemporary ones. And that includes likes of Newton, Einstein. Ramanujam is one of the exceptions though - some of his theorems were creative leap - but even he wouldn't have done w/o strong base he built from books/self-study.
Lurker Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 No hope for engineering grads from schools other than IITs to do better later in career. Why? Because' date= they aren't different, they aspire to be a poor copy of IITs, they blindly follow the leadership of IITs in structuring courses (but without the infrastructure) and have the same goals - get them absorbed in industry with little regard to their specialization. :hysterical::hysterical: ALL Engineering grads look to IITs for leadership? Dude do you work in census bureaue and go about asking ALL grads who they want and what they follow? Me thinks you are one two bit hater who never got into Engineering. And now takes out on Engineering grad by claiming a) ALL Engineering grads look to IIT for leadership. b) ALL Indian IT folks, read typically Engineers, who work abroad are 2-bit IT coolie (remember that discussion? I may be able to help you out if you lost your memory on that one) Maybe using a=b ALL Indian Engineers, including IITians, are two bit coolie. Suppose it proves Chetan Bhagat right lol. Seriously though whats with your hate for Engineers typically? You a hater at heart or an Engineer nicked your girl? :winky: xxx
Lurker Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Have you looked at the comparative success of IIT alumni Vs those of other engineering schools in India over last 30 years ? Or do you think it is all hype ? Hype is not the right word here. IITians have a lot going for them. I mean the selection is the toughest (for Engineering grads) in India. In entire country you select only a few thousands, and once they are in they get the best of academics, infrastructure, International experts etc etc. Often at a very small cost. If you compare an average IITian to a MIT, Harvard or other comparative best schools the IITian typically gets the best resources at the miminal expense to them, or their family. It is unfair to compare IIT Bombay, say, with REC Durgapur when the latter will most likely not receive 1% of the resources. So no its not all hype, IITians have done a lot of good for India, but one also has to look at how much the country typically thows at IITians. xxx
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 You didn't and now look what has happened ... an hour gone down the drain that you will never get back :facepalm: Zingggggg I see you delayed your stalking post in the thread to give the impression that you do have a life.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Me thinks you are one two bit hater who never got into Engineering. And now takes out on Engineering grad by claiming Hain? The guy claims to have written a scathing critique of Special Relativity, is working on a theory in which time doesn't move, and you are casting doubt on his pedigree? Chhoti moti research karne waale to ICF par aate hi nahin hain!
Vijay.Sharma Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Huh? like? To come up with the patent/invention itself, they must have mastery with a particular field .However, the invention may have turned to be an excellent application in a different area.Often it takes years/ decades to to figure out utility of inventions- e.g super conductivity. Engg is not about invention but application to solve real world problems.You see there is this body of knowledge called Theory of Inventive Problem Solving (TRIZ) which is based on the study of patents. One of the areas of TRIZ is the evaluation of patents. There are about 5 levels, 5 being the most innovative. The study of patents filed has shown that most of the 5, quite a lot of the 4 degree patents come from people who are not in the same industry as the industry with the problem. For more info, do a google search on TRIZ and Levels of Innovation. Often the game changing patent changes the system so much that the existing system typically becomes redundant. There happens, what we call a synthesis of a new system entirely Yes. but Creativity is based on a foundation of knowledge and experience.the foundation has to be there.Creativity does not need any foundation in any knowledge area. Creativity is a state of mind...ability to kill psychological inertia or barriers. What you are referring to is "intuition". when i say the best in the field , it means 1. they had the exceptional talent and aptitude to acquire skill levels higher than most. for example if a guy cannot handle or understand complex issues beyond a particular level, he will stay at that level. so one can say the saturation point for the exceptional people is much higher. 2. their skills have been refined to a exceptional world class level by years of experience, training and refinement at a high level. 3. their instincts for the field is natural and they often make excellent decisions. 4. they can handle complexity significantly better than others. 5. they are able to acquire an excellent strategic understanding of the field due to point 4 and 1. 6. they eventually as established players can come up with first rate work consistently. A "different way of thinking" allied to the above factors works well. Anyone can say they have a different approach. but you don't become einstein or newton just by being different for sake of it.An institution rarely is the reason for an individual to have this ability. It is the individual's ability to be so good, as I had clarified in my previous post. If that wasn't true then every IITian and every IIMer would have been a genius. However, in the last few decades we are developing scientific methods that can help individuals become more creative and innovative - TRIZ body of knowledge is one such attempt. Creativity has always been in the realm of art but now thru things like TRIZ, Systematic Inventive Thinking (younger, lighter cousin of TRIZ), etc the "science" of creativity is being mapped out and repeatable methods are being devised to learn to be more innovative
yoda Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 From my own personal experience in the Silicon Valley, many of the top execs of Indian origin in successful companies and exciting new startups have an IIT undergrad. I have personally met and talked to several of them and pretty much all of them (IMO) are top class blokes, technically. Ofc most of these guys graduated about 10 years ago, if not before that and have done a Masters or a PHD from a top school in the US.
youngindia Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 You see there is this body of knowledge called Theory of Inventive Problem Solving (TRIZ) which is based on the study of patents. One of the areas of TRIZ is the evaluation of patents. There are about 5 levels, 5 being the most innovative. The study of patents filed has shown that most of the 5, quite a lot of the 4 degree patents come from people who are not in the same industry as the industry with the problem. you are most likely confusing applications of practical use in the industry with the problems themselves. what about the problem domain ? I am certain the inventor had mastery of areas related to solving the problem. It could have found practical use in a different application/ industry.Often it takes a lot of time to find practical uses of inventions. just because game programmers are used for DNA related work, that does not mean they are DNA experts. just because steve jobs looked for inspiration in design from architects,fonts,italian designers, it does not make him a architect or font specialist. Just because i use unix system services or a c compiler , i don't become a OS or compiler writer. we can be certain jet planes, rockets,laws of motion,e= mc2,solAr system,steam engine were not discovered by mastery of poetry and literature. its absurd in the real world to expect a poet or chemist to solve integration problems in aircraft. and i found only these in some 10 links about TRIZ - 1. "in initial stages of work Genrich discovered, that principles found while analyzing patents from one industry are applicable for problems in other industries.TRIZ was evolving also by transferring strong principles, from one field to another. " 2. people can find probable inspiration from elsewhere. Its different from what you are saying. you are constructing a hyperbole . And TRIZ was meant to be a tool. Not a historical work.Only that history was used in evolving the approach. And i don't think genrich made a mistake. my suspicion is your intrepretation tended towards hyperbole (based on your linkage between industry and inventions which is shaky at best ) Bringing in industry or engineering with regard to inventions itself is on shaky grounds as best .Industry is concerned with consumer services and revenue and only interested in inventions and innovations as long as it helps them to these ends with practical application. Creativity does not need any foundation in any knowledge area. Creativity is a state of mind...ability to kill psychological inertia or barriers. good luck. what are you suggesting?then people can design boeing jets and F22's without understanding airframes and engine? .we can become creative shotmakers in tennis without foundation in serve and stroke production,? i can become sachin tendulkar without learning defence ,batlift and grip? i don't understand where your views come from at all.unless i am missing something. A different way of thinking is understandable.but how is it effective when you don't have the information and experience to fall upon in the first place? to evolve a field, you need to make a highly educated strategic judgement in the first place .That judgement is not easy and not goingcome from state of mind. how can you have an educated opinion without complete reliable information? how can you intrepret your experience competently and make educated observations about an experiment or event? i don't follow you at all. Intuition in my understanding is taking decisions without complete information and thorough critical reasoning processes. A previous pattern in our experience may suggest this could be the right direction and i may take that direction. it plays a role. hence its only one part of from what i am saying about creativity. TRIZ body of knowledge is one such attempt. Creativity has always been in the realm of art but now thru things like TRIZ, Systematic Inventive Thinking (younger, lighter cousin of TRIZ), etc the "science" of creativity is being mapped out and repeatable methods are being devised to learn to be more innovative they are tools and nothing more.its theory ,its practise depends. without the right people in the right place and proper execution, a company's innovative efforts are not going anywhere. and it makes sense in a conducive environment like the developed countries,. if innovation is as straightforward as using a tool like TRIZ, countries like india would be producing SONYs and googles.
akshayxyz Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 ^++ Exactly - @Sharmaji TRIZ is just an algorithmic approach - generic process, a design pattern of process..that is it. And this is not the only approach - I believe. And for any algorithm to work, produce any results, it needs to be fed with existing knowledge base and many other domain specific tools. e.g. How long do you think will it take for you, using only TRIZ, to find expansion of "(x+y)^n" - no you are not allowed to read more mathematics than you already know. Also - Have a look at this. http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/ With reference to above picture, what you seem to be claiming is that TRIZ is the only thing required to make that dent all over the circle, in any direction. In other words, if you do not know the problem - what are you going to solve? and to know the current set of unsolved problems, you need to have strong knowledge base.
Yoda-esque Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Wait' date=' is this the nerd section? :blink:[/quote'] Its getting there..and fast
Vijay.Sharma Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Youngindia, I think you totally misunderstood and/or misinterpreted my point. My mention of TRIZ was only to show- a. Creativity has nothing to do with knowledge. Creativity is a state of mind. b. The trait that great innovators possess is the ability to break psychological barriers. The more knowledgeable you are in a field, the more rigid your ideas tend to become in that field which is why it becomes very difficult for some experts to think out of the box, as it were. c. Game changers are those that arrest their psychological inertia / barriers and synthesize new things. Secondly, nowhere have I equated innovation as TRIZ or that TRIZ necessarily means innovation. At the end of the day these are all methodologies and every methodology, tool, technique is just as good as the individual who applies or implements it. I stand by these two statements and they can be discussed independent of methods - a. Creativity is a state of mind b. Intuition (not psychic intuition but subject/topic intuition) is based on knowledge, and wisdom (experience of applying that knowledge) From the above, intuition is not equal to creativity and vice versa. However, individuals can gain the ability of 'creative intuition'. Anyway this is taking the thread off track. The topic is definitely interesting and if you would like to discuss it more we can have a new thread on it.
Vijay.Sharma Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 ^++ Exactly - @Sharmaji TRIZ is just an algorithmic approach - generic process, a design pattern of process..that is it. And this is not the only approach - I believe. And for any algorithm to work, produce any results, it needs to be fed with existing knowledge base and many other domain specific tools. e.g. How long do you think will it take for you, using only TRIZ, to find expansion of "(x+y)^n" - no you are not allowed to read more mathematics than you already know. Also - Have a look at this. http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/ With reference to above picture, what you seem to be claiming is that TRIZ is the only thing required to make that dent all over the circle, in any direction. In other words, if you do not know the problem - what are you going to solve? and to know the current set of unsolved problems, you need to have strong knowledge base.Mentioning TRIZ has caused some misinterpretation here. Let me say this clearly... TRIZ, in itself, or for that matter any other methodology/philosophy/technique does not assure creativity or innovation. It is just a methodology, an implement which if used well can help you innovate. It's like Sachin's bat, say. Just having Sachin's bat dunn get you so many centuries. It is Sachin who scores those centuries. The bat has great power in it but that power is dormant until someone like Sachin chooses to use it. So, no I am not saying that TRIZ or anything else will automatically make you creative. Another example I can use is Ayahuasca. Now Aya ain't gonna give you all the answers. Aya is an implement that only puts you in a frame of mind from where you find the answers yourself. If one is not capable of finding the answers then no matter how much Aya he has he won't find the answers. However, Aya creates the context, a psychological setting where it becomes easier for you to find those answers. Similarly being a TRIZ expert makes you break those psychological barriers more easily than otherwise. Also TRIZ is not the only way to break those psychological barriers. NLP is another deadly technique. Basically, anything that works is good enough. It dunn mean TRIZ is a necessity to be an innovator. Neither does it mean that Aya is a necessity to find the answers you are looking for. Hope that clarifies
ravishingravi Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 http://greatbong.net/2011/10/15/of-bodyshops-and-bestsellers/
Khalpat Posted October 17, 2011 Author Posted October 17, 2011 http://greatbong.net/2011/10/15/of-bodyshops-and-bestsellers/ :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:
WC2011INDIA Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 http://greatbong.net/2011/10/15/of-bodyshops-and-bestsellers/ :cantstop:
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