Umesh yadav-pretty impressive.

[Blue Panther]

A 6 over ball is not exactly an old ball. Before the naysayers jump on me...making an observation dunn mean I am against UY. Heel, I am more interested than any of you fellas to see Umesh bowl and bowl fast.

Way to lose your respect dude.

[Trichromatic]

Quite simple really - Just watch every ball that Umesh bowls and note down the speed shown. At the end of the innings (or at the point where they show the f, s, a) calculate two averages - a) for all deliveries, b) for all deliveries minus slower ones. At some point in the game they would have shown his fastest, average, and slowest. Compare a and b until the time the ball when they show his fastest, slowest, and average - the truth will set u free

How do you define slower one? After consistently bowling around 140s,Yadav bowled one delivery at 124. Would you call it slower one and exclude it?

Listen, the best anecdotal evidence for this average speed not including slower balls is that of Jade Dernbach. The guy's average speed is shown to be in the 130s. Now this guy bowled at least 20 of his 60 balls as slower ones. And the fastest of his slower bowls would've been around 125. Now if he bowled all his slower balls between 120 and 125 then for him to average a speed in the high 130s it would mean that the rest of the 40 balls he would've bowled at high 140s or low 150s. Simple logic tells you that. Did he bowl in the high 140s or 150s? Even 10 balls leave alone 40? So what do you think is more likely (remember he has bowled at speeds of 99 kmph and less than 110 too). If his average is 135+ then quite clearly these kinda balls were not included in the computation of his average speed. Secondly, what benefit does it give the viewer for the broadcaster to provide a pseudo average? Surely the broadcaster's ain't so dumb to not understand that the viewers are interested in knowing how fast the bowler is and not just a mathematical quantity?

Average speed is just a mathematical quantity. Probelm with all this idea of excluding slower ones is that there is no fix boundary between balls which should be excluded and which shouldn't. In Dernbach's example you assumed lot of things. Dernbach fastest deliveries are around 90mph. Most of his normal deliveries are around 140 and slower ones are around 100-110. Instead of assuming anything, one can actually verify whether it's just a mathematical quantity or not. Dernbach's speed during 2nd match according to cricinfo Avg : 79.7 Fastest 89.7 Speed for all deliveries, excluding 5th ball of 48th over. I don't have data for that ball.

85.9	85.9	86.0	84.4	84.6	83.5	83.1	86.8	85.7	67.8
83.0	85.9	85.5	85.9	84.4	87.0	87.3	67.1	69.1	86.2
81.5	84.0	87.8	81.2	74.8	72.8	88.2	68.3	68.1	67.2
85.2	80.8	85.5	87.7	67.7	89.7	83.1	85.2	68.9	86.5
85.9	85.4	69.3	87.9	67.7	73.7	67.5	85.5	75.1	67.5
85.8	68.8	85.3	68.0	66.6	69.2	70.2	84.1	84.2	83.8
	84.7								69.4

Mathematical avg : 79.69 which is same as average speed. Certainly if slower ones were excluded then average speed must have been much higher than the mathematical average.

[vvvslaxman]

But People forget that Dale Steyn debuted a way back in 2004 while he started performing since 2007-2008. It took him a few years to become what he is right now. You do not get bowlers like McGrath' date=' Lee, Steyn, from day one. Even McGrath was not what he became when he debuted. Same case with Steyn.[/quote'] So Umesh is our future Dale steyn :cantstop: We heard it all .

[asterix]

The amount of negativity is amazing, to be honest..

[Yoda-esque]

The amount of negativity is amazing' date=' to be honest..[/quote'] Welcome to ICF :cantstop:

[Vijay.Sharma]

Way to lose your respect dude.

god, your standards for respect are so fickle!

[Vijay.Sharma]

It's not that old' date=' but it does make a difference in indian conditions where the ball's condition deteriorate's fast.[/quote']Have you ever bowled with a ball that hasn't been used even for one ball and one that has been used for 10 overs? Don't gimme bullshit theories...listen I have played cricket at u-19 level, college level and corporate level and I bowl pace...I am speaking from experience. The pace of your bowling has more to do with your rhythm and the way you release the ball than how new the ball is.

[Vijay.Sharma]

How do you define slower one? After consistently bowling around 140s,Yadav bowled one delivery at 124. Would you call it slower one and exclude it? Average speed is just a mathematical quantity. Probelm with all this idea of excluding slower ones is that there is no fix boundary between balls which should be excluded and which shouldn't. In Dernbach's example you assumed lot of things. Dernbach fastest deliveries are around 90mph. Most of his normal deliveries are around 140 and slower ones are around 100-110. Instead of assuming anything, one can actually verify whether it's just a mathematical quantity or not. Dernbach's speed during 2nd match according to cricinfo Avg : 79.7 Fastest 89.7 Speed for all deliveries, excluding 5th ball of 48th over. I don't have data for that ball.

85.9	85.9	86.0	84.4	84.6	83.5	83.1	86.8	85.7	67.8
83.0	85.9	85.5	85.9	84.4	87.0	87.3	67.1	69.1	86.2
81.5	84.0	87.8	81.2	74.8	72.8	88.2	68.3	68.1	67.2
85.2	80.8	85.5	87.7	67.7	89.7	83.1	85.2	68.9	86.5
85.9	85.4	69.3	87.9	67.7	73.7	67.5	85.5	75.1	67.5
85.8	68.8	85.3	68.0	66.6	69.2	70.2	84.1	84.2	83.8
	84.7								69.4

Mathematical avg : 79.69 which is same as average speed. Certainly if slower ones were excluded then average speed must have been much higher than the mathematical average.

Vibhash, I'll not get into your rather pedantic arguments. All I want you to do is take the case of Umesh or whichever fast bowler for the next match and find out their averages and present them here. That'll do more good than us arguing about assumptions. You can prove me wrong in one shot by doing it for a couple of bowlers in the next match. If proved wrong, I'll accept it Edit - By the way I am referring to the bowling speeds shown during the match. I have seen cricinfo has showed different speeds than Neo. When Neo showed Varun bowling 14, cricinfo showed 142 (anecdotal) but anyway let's do it the right way

[Trichromatic]

Edit - By the way I am referring to the bowling speeds shown during the match. I have seen cricinfo has showed different speeds than Neo. When Neo showed Varun bowling 14, cricinfo showed 142 (anecdotal) but anyway let's do it the right way

Isn't above example good enough. How cricinfo's different speed than Neo matters here? Anyways it doesn't matter. Maybe someone can do it in next match.

[Trichromatic]

It's not that old' date=' but it does make a difference in indian conditions where the ball's condition deteriorate's fast.[/quote'] Yeah, pace of a bowler doesn't depend on the condition of the ball. Someone claimed that if Vinay Kumar can be 4-5 kmph faster with new ball then Umesh would done same. That doesn't happen. A delivery bowled at 145 would be 145 only irrespective of the condition of the ball.

[Vijay.Sharma]

Isn't above example good enough. How cricinfo's different speed than Neo matters here? Anyways it doesn't matter. Maybe someone can do it in next match.

Cricinfo and Neo's speed matters because I am speaking from Neo's speeds and I am able to bring the point across only because I have seen the difference live between Neo and cricinfo. It's a very simple exercise and we should be able to do it for the next match. I usually do not watch the whole match but here's what I can do...I'll ensure to watch the first 10 overs of an innings and note down the speeds for every ball. You watch the next 10 overs, someone else watches 21-30, another person watches 31-40,and another 41-50. we pick one bowler and check out his numbers...the first time they show his average speed we note it down. Any of you questioning my take interested in testing to find out what is the reality?

[rkt.india]

So Umesh is our future Dale steyn :cantstop: We heard it all .

We will be happy if he can be half as good as Steyn. No one can know who can become who. No one would have thought Steyn could become that good. The kind of movement he got plenty of times at pace he plenty of times in Irani Cup and ODIs suggests he can be very good with some experience. People even had raised questions about McGrath but look at where he is. BTW, no one becomes any other. If he can make his own identity as a genuine Indian fast bowler with decent success that is good enough.

[rkt.india]

Your post sounds incoherent...I am arguing something and you are arguing something else

Yeah...my point was different. I was talking about pace.

[rajmarie]

I just hope that UY dont compromise on his speed/pace as Indian bowlers in the past have done to get their non-existance line / lenght. He needs to see how he can add couple of more Km to his speed.

[vvvslaxman]

We will be happy if he can be half as good as Steyn. No one can know who can become who. No one would have thought Steyn could become that good. The kind of movement he got plenty of times at pace he plenty of times in Irani Cup and ODIs suggests he can be very good with some experience. People even had raised questions about McGrath but look at where he is. BTW, no one becomes any other. If he can make his own identity as a genuine Indian fast bowler with decent success that is good enough.

SA has history of producing high quality fast bowlers. No surprise there. Brett Shultz.. he was quicker than Alan Donald. Then Donald, Ntini, Hayward , Steyn, Morkel. Even Kallis can hit 140k when he puts a bit of effort. On the other hand our bowlers have a history of losing pace drastically. If he proves me wrong i am more than happy.

[rkt.india]

SA has history of producing high quality fast bowlers. No surprise there. Brett Shultz.. he was quicker than Alan Donald. Then Donald' date=' Ntini, Hayward , Steyn, Morkel. Even Kallis can hit 140k when he puts a bit of effort. On the other hand our bowlers have a history of losing pace drastically. If he proves me wrong i am more than happy.[/quote'] History is always written. Hope, he keeps it. We can only hope our team management encourage these guys to bowl fast rather than concentrate on line and length.

[rajmarie]

SA has history of producing high quality fast bowlers. No surprise there. Brett Shultz.. he was quicker than Alan Donald. Then Donald' date=' Ntini, Hayward , Steyn, Morkel. Even Kallis can hit 140k when he puts a bit of effort. [b']On the other hand our bowlers have a history of losing pace drastically. If he proves me wrong i am more than happy.

That has to do with our so called bowling coaches forcing our bowlers to do LINE & LENGHT CRAP at the expense of pace That why I said....Yadav should try to get his speed into 150. Get that speed....& practice it....& he will automatically get better control. This will help India to get someone with PHAST bowling in our team

[vvvslaxman]

That has to do with our so called bowling coaches forcing our bowlers to do LINE & LENGHT CRAP at the expense of pace That why I said....Yadav should try to get his speed into 150. Get that speed....& practice it....& he will automatically get better control. This will help India to get someone with PHAST bowling in our team

But we don't know for sure coach make them bowl slow. Sometimes bowlers do it on their own as they get older. Their priority will be to prevent burn out. Especially after IPL players simply cannot afford an injury. You will lose a lot. They get the attention when they start then they fade away. They don't religiously pursue their quest to become a genuine fast bowler. Genuine quick bowlers generally bowl short spells and get a wicket or two. That is why they have better strike rates than others. It needs lot of stamina and strength to bowl very long spells Someone like JOhnson who is gazillion times fitter than any of our bowlers can do that. Certainly not our bowlers. That is why Umesh Yadav has to increase the ability to take wickets. It will be so discouraging if you bowl 10 overs without a single wicket time and again. In Tests it will be even longer . Then out of frustration either they go all over the shop and burn out or they just reduce the pace to bowl longer spells. He is hovering around 145k which is not really a threatening pace at this level. Even reasonable tailenders play that pace easily. So he needs to develop a good stock ball with couple of variations pretty soon.

[rkt.india]

But we don't know for sure coach make them bowl slow. Sometimes bowlers do it on their own as they get older. Their priority will be to prevent burn out. Especially after IPL players simply cannot afford an injury. You will lose a lot. They get the attention when they start then they fade away. They don't religiously pursue their quest to become a genuine fast bowler.

Yaar...even Aakash Chopra has reiterated this in his articles and his tweets and he has been a national player himself. He certainly knows a thing or two about inside incidents in Indian cricket.

[rkt.india]

Genuine quick bowlers generally bowl short spells and get a wicket or two. That is why they have better strike rates than others. It needs lot of stamina and strength to bowl very long spells Someone like JOhnson who is gazillion times fitter than any of our bowlers can do that. Certainly not our bowlers. That is why Umesh Yadav has to increase the ability to take wickets. It will be so discouraging if you bowl 10 overs without a single wicket time and again. In Tests it will be even longer . Then out of frustration either they go all over the shop and burn out or they just reduce the pace to bowl longer spells. He is hovering around 145k which is not really a threatening pace at this level. Even reasonable tailenders play that pace easily. So he needs to develop a good stock ball with couple of variations pretty soon.

That is why I said it is captain who makes or break a bowler. Captain must know how to handle a genuine pacer. They don't come easy and you need bowl them in short spells. Yadav has shown that he can bowl even a 10 over spell with sustained pace. Talking about stock ball, it develops over time and he has very good outswinger which we saw in Irani cup and as well in ODIs and every time he pitched the ball up to swing, he got the movement in the air and off the deck and that too at 140+K. Regarding his pace around 145K, IMO, that is a very good pace. It just bowler needs to know how to use that pace. Np bowler in world cricket bowls faster than that every time. If some one bowls, then that is very few overs. Well targeted deliveries at 145K are good enough to trouble any batsman. It is all about how consistent areas he bowls and that will came as he plays more, I am sure. I Hope Eric Simmons can work on these things in nets.