Annoyed with Dhoni's test match batting

[ganeshran]

Dhoni's problem is with his batting technique in tests. His defense looks ugly with him leaning way down and swatting the ball back to the bowler rather than let the ball come to his bat. He should also avoid going after everything outside the offstump and lower his backlift to dig out deliveries that are in the blockhole. These issues get masked while playing ODIs and T20s but come to the fore in tests. That being said, there is nothing to suggest that Dhoni's replacement (Saha) has the potential to be a better batsmen than him

[The Outsider]

These posts in the thread http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=112922&highlight=dhoni+test From an ardent MSD fan, Outty has turned a harsh critic, all because of the emergence of Saha :P. The good thing is his prophecy of MSD having a batting avg of 35-40 has come good.:--D

Unfortunately, his keeping has been very average on most of our recent away tours. And from first impressions, Saha does look to be a more accomplished keeper. Dhoni isn't even in the same league as Parthiv or Karthik and is a decent keeper - my stringent criticism of him is partially a result of the unqualified adulation he receives despite being neither a top class keeper or batsman in test matches.

[saneindian]

Unfortunately' date=' his keeping has been very average on most of our recent away tours. And from first impressions, Saha does look to be a more accomplished keeper. Dhoni isn't even in the same league as Parthiv or Karthik and is a decent keeper - [b']my stringent criticism of him is partially a result of the unqualified adulation he receives despite being neither a top class keeper or batsman in test matches.

I can understand that but then how can you blame him or for that matter any other player for the hype. Will be a understatement to say that among the players from the 2000s and onwards, his has bee the most non controversial career so far. Any other young player getting so much so early could have let that get to the head and lost his way. Not with MSD. Captaincy and non stop cricket has taken a toll on his own performance especially in tests but I am sure its just a lean patch. Will come out of that very soon.

[Sachin=GOD]

Unfortunately' date=' his keeping has been very average on most of our recent away tours. And from first impressions, Saha does look to be a more accomplished keeper. Dhoni isn't even in the same league as Parthiv or Karthik and is a decent keeper - [b']my stringent criticism of him is partially a result of the unqualified adulation he receives despite being neither a top class keeper or batsman in test matches.

I think most of that adulation is due to this performance in ODIs, especially by fans who do not understand that you need more than an occasional innings on a flat track to be successful in Test matches. Also he does not receive even half as much criticism as some other keeper/batsman would have received

[Old guy]

i will say stop expecting him to play like gilchrist .. like he himself said he is more of a package,good captain,can bat on his day can destroy attacks imo he should play attacking cricket when ever he attacked he played well even in tests in south africa he counter attacked their bowlers his defence isnt that good and his half hearted nudges are dangerous (cos he uses bottom hand) he hsould go the sehwag way would be much more succesful

[Chaos]

i will say stop expecting him to play like gilchrist .. like he himself said he is more of a package,good captain,can bat on his day can destroy attacks imo he should play attacking cricket when ever he attacked he played well even in tests in south africa he counter attacked their bowlers his defence isnt that good and his half hearted nudges are dangerous (cos he uses bottom hand) he hsould go the sehwag way would be much more succesful

well said. Gilchrist is a kingpin of a keeper and my favorite cricket EVER. That being said, gilly is not even close to being technical. He attacked everytime, so he gets away with it on his day. That being said, dhoni should play aggressive. He cant survive with tuk tuk ****.

[Old guy]

well said. Gilchrist is a kingpin of a keeper and my favorite cricket EVER. That being said' date=' gilly is not even close to being technical. He attacked everytime, so he gets away with it on his day. That being said, dhoni should play aggressive. He cant survive with tuk tuk ****.[/quote'] yep gilchrist still wasm uch better his record on tough pitches in south africa.. is good even in india he scored a match winning century dhoni should go in one day mode he cant bad any more badly now can he? :banghead:

[rkt.india]

I would happily take that one fifty per year if it's an innings like Mongia played at Chennai or Kotla rather than the meaningless dross that FTB Ultra keeps on making in the name of test match batting.

Mongia has one 1-2 innings in is lifetime and you are going gaga. Dhoni's 68 itself at Lords in 2007 which saved the match in overcast conditions is as good.

[vamos_rafa]

Mongia has one 1-2 innings in is lifetime and you are going gaga. Dhoni's 68 itself at Lords in 2007 which saved the match in overcast conditions is as good.

Dhoni has had many such innings. I have written them on so many occasions in various posts. ab to likhne ka bhi man nahi karta yaar. Cut the guy some slack, he's been out of form but he suddenly can't become bad.

[The Outsider]

Mongia has one 1-2 innings in is lifetime and you are going gaga. Dhoni's 68 itself at Lords in 2007 which saved the match in overcast conditions is as good.

Are you trying to compare a bowling attack of Akram, Waqar, Saqlain, and Afridi (with Akram and Saqlain at the top of their games) with Anderson, Tremlett, Sidebottom, and Panesar? Overcast conditions? I am sure Vaughan, Pietersen, and Panesar really benefited from them when they had to bowl the last 10 overs with the overcast conditions really aiding the amount of swing and seam they were getting. Really! I am done with this topic if I am going to have to convince people that Akram, Waqar, Saqlain, and Afridi is an attack in a different league than Anderson, Tremlett, Sidebottom, and Panesar.

[Ram]

Are you trying to compare a bowling attack of Akram, Waqar, Saqlain, and Afridi (with Akram and Saqlain at the top of their games) with Anderson, Tremlett, Sidebottom, and Panesar? Overcast conditions? I am sure Vaughan, Pietersen, and Panesar really benefited from them when they had to bowl the last 10 overs with the overcast conditions really aiding the amount of swing and seam they were getting. Really! I am done with this topic if I am going to have to convince people that Akram, Waqar, Saqlain, and Afridi is an attack in a different league than Anderson, Tremlett, Sidebottom, and Panesar.

Yes, absolutely. If only Nayan Mongia had been playing today, he'd have averaged 55 in tests and been in contention for the top spot in test rankings. I am not sure if you quite realize, but many of us have actually watched that dude bat. At best, he was below average. At worst, he was useless. To try to massage his numbers by coming up excuses like 'Oh back then the bowlers were totally awesome' is really weak.

[Bumper]

Dhoni is not a technique-driven test batsman and hence should not be judged as such. He is a gritty customer who battles it out in the middle and more often than not scores runs when needed. You could point to his dozen failures & say why didn't he manage a good score here ? But you can do that with pretty much any batsman. Many times in the past Dhoni has managed decent scores when his side was in trouble and/or when conditions were hostile. For instance, in difficult conditions in the Durban test (that we won earlier this year), he was the 2nd top scorer in the 1st innings. Only Laxman bettered his match aggregate. He saved a test at Lords in 2007, resurrected our innigs quite a few times against the likes of Pakistan (and even Australia) and has scored some quick runs several times in the lower order. Yeah, he failed in Australia last time, but so did Dravid in 1999. Even in the most recent series vs England, which is one of Dhoni's worst test series as a batsman, keeper and skipper, his aggregate of 220 runs @ 31, is in the top three (after Dravid and SRT) for Indian batsmen. As for the 1999 chennai test, Akram and Saqlain were the real threat back in 1999, not Waqar who was well past his prime by then. Regardless its not like Dhoni has never faced good bowlers in his career. He has faced Steyn, Morkel, Anderson, Akhtar, Murali, Mendis et al who are no push-overs. Infact i would rate Steyn as good as any bowler in test history (may be even better than Akram) and Murali as the best ever. As for keeping, pure wickies are an endangered species, batting is almost the #1 requirement for keepers these days. So you gotta judge wicket keepers as a package. Even in terms of pure wicket keeping skills, Dhoni is not such a shabby keeper. Infact, given our poor fast bowling resources, we simply dont generate as many chances to even fault Dhoni's keeping. Overall as a package, with keeping, captaincy and batsmanship combined, Dhoni is still a top test player for India. And i believe as long as he deserves a spot (which he definitely does), he must lead this team. But am i happy with Dhoni's current form ? No, but am confident he will improve. Dhoni is a honest cricketer, he learns from his mistakes and will not repeat them. I expect him to have a better tour of Australia this time.

[Number]

Dhoni is not a technique-driven test batsman and hence should not be judged as such. He is a gritty customer who battles it out in the middle and more often than not scores runs when needed. You could point to his dozen failures & say why didn't he manage a good score here ? But you can do that with pretty much any batsman. Many times in the past Dhoni has managed decent scores when his side was in trouble and/or when conditions were hostile. For instance, in difficult conditions in the Durban test (that we won earlier this year), he was the 2nd top scorer in the 1st innings. Only Laxman bettered his match aggregate. He saved a test at Lords in 2007, resurrected our innigs quite a few times against the likes of Pakistan (and even Australia) and has scored some quick runs several times in the lower order. Yeah, he failed in Australia last time, but so did Dravid in 1999. Even in the most recent series vs England, which is one of Dhoni's worst test series as a batsman, keeper and skipper, his aggregate of 220 runs @ 31, is in the top three (after Dravid and SRT) for Indian batsmen. As for the 1999 chennai test, Akram and Saqlain were the real threat back in 1999, not Waqar who was well past his prime by then. Regardless its not like Dhoni has never faced good bowlers in his career. He has faced Steyn, Morkel, Anderson, Akhtar, Murali, Mendis et al who are no push-overs. Infact i would rate Steyn as good as any bowler in test history (may be even better than Akram) and Murali as the best ever. As for keeping, pure wickies are an endangered species, batting is almost the #1 requirement for keepers these days. So you gotta judge wicket keepers as a package. Even in terms of pure wicket keeping skills, Dhoni is not such a shabby keeper. Infact, given our poor fast bowling resources, we simply dont generate as many chances to even fault Dhoni's keeping. Overall as a package, with keeping, captaincy and batsmanship combined, Dhoni is still a top test player for India. And i believe as long as he deserves a spot (which he definitely does), he must lead this team. But am i happy with Dhoni's current form ? No, but am confident he will improve. Dhoni is a honest cricketer, he learns from his mistakes and will not repeat them. I expect him to have a better tour of Australia this time.

very good post. :two_thumbs_up:

[Ram]

Dhoni is not a technique-driven test batsman and hence should not be judged as such. He is a gritty customer who battles it out in the middle and more often than not scores runs when needed. You could point to his dozen failures & say why didn't he manage a good score here ? But you can do that with pretty much any batsman. Many times in the past Dhoni has managed decent scores when his side was in trouble and/or when conditions were hostile. For instance, in difficult conditions in the Durban test (that we won earlier this year), he was the 2nd top scorer in the 1st innings. Only Laxman bettered his match aggregate. He saved a test at Lords in 2007, resurrected our innigs quite a few times against the likes of Pakistan (and even Australia) and has scored some quick runs several times in the lower order. Yeah, he failed in Australia last time, but so did Dravid in 1999. Even in the most recent series vs England, which is one of Dhoni's worst test series as a batsman, keeper and skipper, his aggregate of 220 runs @ 31, is in the top three (after Dravid and SRT) for Indian batsmen. As for the 1999 chennai test, Akram and Saqlain were the real threat back in 1999, not Waqar who was well past his prime by then. Regardless its not like Dhoni has never faced good bowlers in his career. He has faced Steyn, Morkel, Anderson, Akhtar, Murali, Mendis et al who are no push-overs. Infact i would rate Steyn as good as any bowler in test history (may be even better than Akram) and Murali as the best ever. As for keeping, pure wickies are an endangered species, batting is almost the #1 requirement for keepers these days. So you gotta judge wicket keepers as a package. Even in terms of pure wicket keeping skills, Dhoni is not such a shabby keeper. Infact, given our poor fast bowling resources, we simply dont generate as many chances to even fault Dhoni's keeping. Overall as a package, with keeping, captaincy and batsmanship combined, Dhoni is still a top test player for India. And i believe as long as he deserves a spot (which he definitely does), he must lead this team. But am i happy with Dhoni's current form ? No, but am confident he will improve. Dhoni is a honest cricketer, he learns from his mistakes and will not repeat them. I expect him to have a better tour of Australia this time.

As always, measured opinion! But just want to touch on one point though;

Only Laxman bettered his match aggregate. He saved a test at Lords in 2007, resurrected our innigs quite a few times against the likes of Pakistan (and even Australia) and has scored some quick runs several times in the lower order. Yeah, he failed in Australia last time, but so did Dravid in 1999

Actually, that is not entirely true either.. He did have a significant role in our only win in that series - Perth. His p'ship with VVS in the 2nd inning was one of the important reasons why we were able to set Australia a 400+ target in their 2nd innings. As a matter of fact, that amount of runs that p'ship put together was pretty much the victory margin for us at the end.

[akshayxyz]

Are you trying to compare a bowling attack of Akram, Waqar, Saqlain, and Afridi (with Akram and Saqlain at the top of their games) with Anderson, Tremlett, Sidebottom, and Panesar? Overcast conditions? I am sure Vaughan, Pietersen, and Panesar really benefited from them when they had to bowl the last 10 overs with the overcast conditions really aiding the amount of swing and seam they were getting. Really! I am done with this topic if I am going to have to convince people that Akram, Waqar, Saqlain, and Afridi is an attack in a different league than Anderson, Tremlett, Sidebottom, and Panesar.

From the reasoning perspective, have you considered the possibility that on their given day, with helpful conditions, these two attacks (and few more combinations) would be almost equally difficult. All time great players are great because they stay above certain level even in adverse conditions (more often than rest) and make best use of helpful conditions more often than others (but not always), but with conditions helping, on their day - even Jadejas become Lara, and Munafs -> Ambrose.

[akshayxyz]

Between Mongia and Dhoni, in general - Mongia must be having better technique ( almost everyone has, as compared Dhoni :D).. but on his day, Dhoni knows better how to take home maximum rewards. And I believe that is going to reflect in stats in future ( for the numbers oriented generation Z++).

[The Outsider]

From the reasoning perspective' date= have you considered the possibility that on their given day, with helpful conditions, these two attacks (and few more combinations) would be almost equally difficult. All time great players are great because they stay above certain level even in adverse conditions (more often than rest) and make best use of helpful conditions more often than others (but not always), but with conditions helping, on their day - even Jadejas become Lara, and Munafs -> Ambrose.

Yes, quite obviously that's true. However, I am clearly talking about the Pakistan attack on that particular day versus the English attack on that particular day. Akram and Saqlain were at their absolute best. Not for no reason is Tendulkar's 136 rated so highly by so many people who watched the innings - lots of posters here would bring about the difficulty of bowling and conditions when rating Tendulkar's 136. But while rating Mongia's innings in the same innings, they are talking about overcast conditions at Lords' as being the pinnacle of tough batting conditions. Hypocrisy? The batting conditions and bowling attack combination at Lords' was nowhere as difficult, more so with England being forced to use the spin of Vaughan and Monty for the last 10 overs.

[akshayxyz]

Yes, quite obviously that's true. However, I am clearly talking about the Pakistan attack on that particular day versus the English attack on that particular day. Akram and Saqlain were at their absolute best. Not for no reason is Tendulkar's 136 rated so highly by so many people who watched the innings - lots of posters here would bring about the difficulty of bowling and conditions when rating Tendulkar's 136. But while rating Mongia's innings in the same innings, they are talking about overcast conditions at Lords' as being the pinnacle of tough batting conditions. Hypocrisy? The batting conditions and bowling attack combination at Lords' was nowhere as difficult, more so with England being forced to use the spin of Vaughan and Monty for the last 10 overs.

my bad. I lost track of the context that we are discussing Mongia's innings from the same match.

[The Outsider]

Yes, absolutely. If only Nayan Mongia had been playing today, he'd have averaged 55 in tests and been in contention for the top spot in test rankings. I am not sure if you quite realize, but many of us have actually watched that dude bat. At best, he was below average. At worst, he was useless. To try to massage his numbers by coming up excuses like 'Oh back then the bowlers were totally awesome' is really weak.

I'll take the bait. Following four innings are when I would rate him at his best. Will you classify them as below average: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63721.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63660.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63828.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63745.html ?

[Bumper]

I can't believe you are still bigging up Mongia. I thought you did that to take a dig at Dhoni, but you are really taking this too far. Almost everyone who has seen Mongia would vouch for his ordinary batting skills. His occasional "flash in the pan" performances not withstanding, Mongia for the most part was a very average to mediocre test bat. That's how I remember him. And stats confirm my perception. If he were a quality test bat like you want us to believe, it would have reflected in his numbers at some point. The guy averages 24 over 44 tests and has a total of one 100 and six 50s in his great test career. Out of these seven 50+ scores, only two of them came outside India. Dhoni betters Mongia in almost every country (including India). So why did Mongia fail to show up overseas if he was such a quality bat ? Pointing a few isolated innings does not a case make. Cricket is such a game of oddities, its very easy to come up with wierd examples (like Mongia's chennai innings) to make whatever point you want to make. Ijaz Ahmed averaged 41 in Australia with three 100s whereas Inzy managed only one 100 @ 30. Because Ijaz navigated quality bowling better than Inzy (against McGrath & Warne) in a few games, he was a better batsman than Inzy ? If you compare one batsman's best performances against another's worst, you will always make the latter look ridiculous. To his credit, Dhoni has at least a couple of 50s against every opponent and many of them have come against good bowlers when the chips were down. Dhoni is not a very good test batsman, that's a fair point, but bigging Mongia up to put down Dhoni is nonsense, you know that. If it matters: Mongia

GroupingAscending 	Span 	Mat 	Inns 	NO 	Runs 	HS 	Ave 	BF 	SR 	100 	50 	0 	4s 	6s 	
in England 	1996-1996 	3 	5 	0 	107 	45 	21.40 	347 	30.83 	0 	0 	0 	13 	0 	view innings
in India 	1994-2001 	26 	41 	7 	959 	152 	28.20 	2186 	43.87 	1 	4 	4 	112 	5 	view innings
in New Zealand 	1994-1999 	3 	5 	0 	92 	45 	18.40 	284 	32.39 	0 	0 	1 	9 	0 	view innings
in South Africa 	1996-1997 	3 	6 	0 	86 	50 	14.33 	283 	30.38 	0 	1 	0 	11 	0 	view innings
in Sri Lanka 	1997-1999 	3 	4 	1 	57 	25 	19.00 	201 	28.35 	0 	0 	0 	4 	0 	view innings
in West Indies 	1997-1997 	5 	5 	0 	140 	78 	28.00 	431 	32.48 	0 	1 	0 	10 	0 	view innings
in Zimbabwe 	1998-1998 	1 	2 	0 	1 	1 	0.50 	10 	10.00 	0 	0 	1 	0 	0 	view innings

Dhoni

GroupingAscending 	Span 	Mat 	Inns 	NO 	Runs 	HS 	Ave 	BF 	SR 	100 	50 	0 	4s 	6s 	
in Australia 	2007-2008 	4 	8 	0 	141 	38 	17.62 	376 	37.50 	0 	0 	1 	16 	2 	view innings
in Bangladesh 	2007-2010 	3 	4 	2 	193 	89 	96.50 	272 	70.95 	0 	2 	0 	19 	7 	view innings
in England 	2007-2011 	7 	13 	2 	429 	92 	39.00 	721 	59.50 	0 	4 	2 	54 	7 	view innings
in India 	2005-2011 	30 	44 	6 	1634 	144 	43.00 	2765 	59.09 	4 	11 	2 	156 	27 	view innings
in New Zealand 	2009-2009 	2 	3 	1 	155 	56* 	77.50 	295 	52.54 	0 	2 	0 	21 	1 	view innings
in Pakistan 	2006-2006 	3 	3 	0 	179 	148 	59.66 	201 	89.05 	1 	0 	0 	26 	4 	view innings
in South Africa 	2006-2011 	5 	9 	0 	283 	90 	31.44 	402 	70.39 	0 	1 	1 	43 	3 	view innings
in Sri Lanka 	2010-2010 	3 	4 	0 	128 	76 	32.00 	220 	58.18 	0 	1 	0 	13 	0 	view innings
in West Indies 	2006-2011 	7 	12 	0 	265 	74 	22.08 	422 	62.79 	0 	2 	1 	20 	9 	view innings

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