Kirsten factor

[ravishingravi]

While the team is dwindling with every passing day, seniors playing for records, players for IPL, BCCI for money, bowlers for life, one thing that hasn't been stressed on enough is the importance of Kirsten for Indian team. Now, when one thinks of it, this guys was invaluable for India's success. Dhoni is probably the least imaginative captain tactically speaking, although he has a brilliant temperament, but this captain and team needs a great coach. I won't jump on the bandwagon to hate on Fletcher. I do believe that there are far bigger causes than him causing us to lose, but with SA now becoming No.1 team ( thanks to awful England ) , one can expect a very dominant team that can remove the barriers of the "choker" past.

[India-KXIP fan]

Shane Warne said the coach is only good for driving the team to a match but certainly it's more than that. No coincidence SA is becoming No.1.

[maniac]

As it was mentioned in the OP SA being NO 1 is due to Ind and Eng f**** up overseas.Kirsten is overrated by us....Did our fielding improve under him,Our bowling was in the docks even then....There is no difference in the way our batsman played then and now....minus the luck factor.We got kicked out in the preliminary stages of 2 World T20 s held overseas.Yes we drew in SA but messed up the ODI series but hey,so did Srilanka of all teams.We won in New Zealand but we won in WI under fletcher who are around the same league as NZl. I don't want to go to could and should have but Im pretty sure we would have won the WC under Fletcher too,Didn't we kick WI and Eng backside at home??? Gary Kirsten's contribution is definetely overrated.I rate Greg Chappell for trying to bring in changes which to some extent have helped us in the long run compared to lucky Kirsten.

[Precambrian]

As it was mentioned in the OP SA being NO 1 is due to Ind and Eng f**** up overseas.Kirsten is overrated by us....Did our fielding improve under him,Our bowling was in the docks even then....There is no difference in the way our batsman played then and now....minus the luck factor.We got kicked out in the preliminary stages of 2 World T20 s held overseas.Yes we drew in SA but messed up the ODI series but hey,so did Srilanka of all teams.We won in New Zealand but we won in WI under fletcher who are around the same league as NZl. I don't want to go to could and should have but Im pretty sure we would have won the WC under Fletcher too,Didn't we kick WI and Eng backside at home??? Gary Kirsten's contribution is definetely overrated.I rate Greg Chappell for trying to bring in changes which to some extent have helped us in the long run compared to lucky Kirsten.

0-4, 0-4 under Fletcher Didn't plumb those depths under Kirsten, never ever. The team did not change drastically in the span of a year after Kirsten left. More than Kirsten, I'd say Paddy Upton, the mental conditioning coach had a say in our superlative performances in the last 2 years.

[saneindian]

The real reason IMO is that the team and especially the captain and the board have been drunk on the WC success for far too long. Problems in the team start at the top and Dhoni's bull headed approach post the WC has contributed in a big way to the decline. I am not sure if Kirsten would have helped the team much. Kirsten wouldn't have ensured Sehwag missed the IPL but was available for WI and Eng. He couldn't have done anything about the lack of practice games, couldn't have done much about our crap bowling either. See what is happening to England under Flower post their no 1 rank. Same team, same set up, but struggling to play at the level one would expect the no 1 team to play at.

[India-KXIP fan]

As it was mentioned in the OP SA being NO 1 is due to Ind and Eng f**** up overseas.Kirsten is overrated by us....Did our fielding improve under him,Our bowling was in the docks even then....There is no difference in the way our batsman played then and now....minus the luck factor.We got kicked out in the preliminary stages of 2 World T20 s held overseas.Yes we drew in SA but messed up the ODI series but hey,so did Srilanka of all teams.We won in New Zealand but we won in WI under fletcher who are around the same league as NZl. I don't want to go to could and should have but Im pretty sure we would have won the WC under Fletcher too,Didn't we kick WI and Eng backside at home??? Gary Kirsten's contribution is definetely overrated.I rate Greg Chappell for trying to bring in changes which to some extent have helped us in the long run compared to lucky Kirsten.

Players were mentally strong and not gutless under Kirsten.

[Number]

The real reason IMO is that the team and especially the captain and the board have been drunk on the WC success for far too long. Problems in the team start at the top and Dhoni's bull headed approach post the WC has contributed in a big way to the decline. I am not sure if Kirsten would have helped the team much. Kirsten wouldn't have ensured Sehwag missed the IPL but was available for WI and Eng. He couldn't have done anything about the lack of practice games, couldn't have done much about our crap bowling either. See what is happening to England under Flower post their no 1 rank. Same team, same set up, but struggling to play at the level one would expect the no 1 team to play at.

Agree. But Still Fletcher needs to go.

[CSK Fan]

While the team is dwindling with every passing day' date=' [b']seniors playing for records, players for IPL, BCCI for money, bowlers for life , one thing that hasn't been stressed on enough is the importance of Kirsten for Indian team. Now, when one thinks of it, this guys was invaluable for India's success. Dhoni is probably the least imaginative captain tactically speaking, although he has a brilliant temperament, but this captain and team needs a great coach. I won't jump on the bandwagon to hate on Fletcher. I do believe that there are far bigger causes than him causing us to lose, but with SA now becoming No.1 team ( thanks to awful England ) , one can expect a very dominant team that can remove the barriers of the "choker" past.

Yes, Sachin's 100 was the cause of our 8-0 defeat overseas and all the cause of our current misery. Grow up. BTW show me one person on this forum who thought 290 wont be a good target against Bangladesh and I will show you a liar Also all these things were present under Kristen too

[Crookbond]

I just wonder what a coach can do apart from motivation, setting high standards, future vision etc. These parameters can't be correlated with success and vice-versa. It's the job of the players to execute their skills. Kirsten was a friend, Fletcher is like a father-figure. It's just too early for Fletcher to go. I guess his 2-year contract should expire before we make a decision. I agree that Kirsten was a touch over-rated.

[akshayxyz]

I just wonder what a coach can do apart from motivation' date= setting high standards, future vision etc. These parameters can't be correlated with success and vice-versa. It's the job of the players to execute their skills. Kirsten was a friend, Fletcher is like a father-figure. It's just too early for Fletcher to go. I guess his 2-year contract should expire before we make a decision. I agree that Kirsten was a touch over-rated.

You sure are kidding? Skills/talent can take you only so far (or occasional displays of brilliance), consistent high level execution in the middle depends more on these unquantifiable parameters than anything else. Lets say these things do not matter, why have a expensive phoren coach at all.

[Crookbond]

You sure are kidding? Skills/talent can take you only so far (or occasional displays of brilliance), consistent high level execution in the middle depends more on these unquantifiable parameters than anything else. Lets say these things do not matter, why have a expensive phoren coach at all.

Talent can take you so far BUT skills with the right temperament can take you to great heights. Don't underestimate the importance of skills in cricket. It's very much a skill-oriented sport. A coach can only reinstate the importance of these things. That's it PERIOD. He can't execute the skills for his players but help the player in understanding his game. The players have to learn from the coach and try to absorb information but if a player doesn't the coach can't be blamed. Therefore, a coach's value can't be correlated to a team's win/loss ratio (directly). Hence, a coach's worth can only be considered if he has a vision, ability to understand the player's game, connect with players and under extreme cases - tactical brilliance. Was Kirsten expensive? No. In the coaching business, expensiveness comes out of experience. A foreign coach (in this case - Duncan Fletcher or Greg Chappell versus John Wright or Gary Kirsten) is expensive as he has more prior experience and may get around with situations than local ones.

[vvvslaxman]

I have heard players like Gambhir, Raina, Yuvraj and some other players openly praising Kirsten about how he helped their game. You could see the way Raina was carrying kirsten in the end after world cup win. I am yet to hear anything positive about Fletcher from players. More dressing room feuds is all we get to hear. some of the positives that were said about Kirsten.. India captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni, speaking on the eve of the match against Australia, said of Kirsten: "The kind of character he is, the way he has managed the Indian dressing room, not to forget the 15 members who are part of the squad, all of them are big superstars and all of them have a big fan following in India. "The way he has managed each and every individual and I think he has done a fantastic job. It reflects as to how we have done well on the field. I think he is a fantastic gentleman to be associated with." India batting great Sachin Tendulkar had previously praised Kirsten, by saying: "Gary has been instrumental in making our batters play plenty of deliveries in the practice session. "During net practice, he himself bowls thousands and thousands of balls. "He has been an important member of the Indian squad along with the other support staff. I have enjoyed my game under him. He is really putting in a lot of effort."

[Crookbond]

I have heard players like Gambhir, Raina, Yuvraj and some other players openly praising Kirsten about how he helped their game. You could see the way Raina was carrying kirsten in the end after world cup win. I am yet to hear anything positive about Fletcher from players. More dressing room feuds is all we get to hear. some of the positives that were said about Kirsten.. India captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni, speaking on the eve of the match against Australia, said of Kirsten: "The kind of character he is, the way he has managed the Indian dressing room, not to forget the 15 members who are part of the squad, all of them are big superstars and all of them have a big fan following in India. "The way he has managed each and every individual and I think he has done a fantastic job. It reflects as to how we have done well on the field. I think he is a fantastic gentleman to be associated with." India batting great Sachin Tendulkar had previously praised Kirsten, by saying: "Gary has been instrumental in making our batters play plenty of deliveries in the practice session. "During net practice, he himself bowls thousands and thousands of balls. "He has been an important member of the Indian squad along with the other support staff. I have enjoyed my game under him. He is really putting in a lot of effort."

There's no denying these statements but I would be interested to know the timeline of these statements. If I'm not wrong, Kirsten's term started only in December 2008. I am not a Fletcher fan-boy but comparisons with Kirsten should be fair, IMHO.

[vvvslaxman]

There's no denying these statements but I would be interested to know the timeline of these statements. If I'm not wrong' date=' Kirsten's term started only in December 2008. I am not a Fletcher fan-boy but comparisons with Kirsten should be fair, IMHO.[/quote'] these were after world cup win. http://www.sport24.co.za/Cricket/CricketWorldCup2011/Yuvi-pays-homage-to-Kirsten-20110325 kirsten came out with a plan. He hired the personnel he wanted. He was more hands on than any coach we ever had including John Wright. Players have confirmed that several times.

[vvvslaxman]

On Gary Kirsten's departure after the World Cup ¦ RAINA Kirsten is the best thing that has happened to Indian cricket since Sachin Tendulkar. The way he functions, the knowledge he possesses about the game, it's simply incredible. He is someone, who respects your thoughts and privacy. The most important thing is the way he communicates with us ” he never tries to impose anything. Unless you are Sachin, a normal career lasts for a maximum of eight to 10 years, but according to Gary, 'if you are a good human being, people will remember you after cricket'. Gary has been more than just a coach to me.

[CG]

On Gary Kirsten's departure after the World Cup Ž¦ RAINA Kirsten is the best thing that has happened to Indian cricket since Sachin Tendulkar. The way he functions, the knowledge he possesses about the game, it's simply incredible. He is someone, who respects your thoughts and privacy. The most important thing is the way he communicates with us he never tries to impose anything. Unless you are Sachin, a normal career lasts for a maximum of eight to 10 years, but according to Gary, 'if you are a good human being, people will remember you after cricket'. Gary has been more than just a coach to me.

In short- Kirsten did nothing.

[vvvslaxman]

In short- Kirsten did nothing.

"Gary has been the best coach for us. I need not speak about him much. His records speaks for himself and the way he manages the team makes him even more special. He should be retained even after the World Cup", said Gambhir. why would players want him as a coach if he did nothing.. didn't Tendulkar say "During net practice, he himself bowls thousands and thousands of balls. . I have never heard any Indian coach receieved this much appreciation unanimously from all team members. By the time Fletcher leaves we will hear what exactly he did not do right from players themselves.

[vvvslaxman]

Mumbai, Apr 4 (PTI) India’s senior players Sachin Tendulkar and Yuvraj Singh want outgoing coach Gary Kirsten to continue in the job, saying the inspirational South African worked hard for the team’s success and would be missed. Kirsten had decided to quit from his position as India coach before the World Cup had begun and has played a key role in transforming the Indian team into world beaters. “Personally I want Gary to continue but I understand he has got commitments and he must have thought about this before the tournament. I respect his decision,” Tendulkar said. “It has been a pleasure to work with him, he worked as hard as the players, he is like a bowling machine, bowling 200-300 balls to the batsmen. It has always been a fabulous experience to rub shoulder with him, we will miss him,” he added.

[CG]

"Gary has been the best coach for us. I need not speak about him much. His records speaks for himself and the way he manages the team makes him even more special. He should be retained even after the World Cup", said Gambhir. why would players want him as a coach if he did nothing.. didn't Tendulkar say "During net practice, he himself bowls thousands and thousands of balls. . I have never heard any Indian coach receieved this much appreciation unanimously from all team members. By the time Fletcher leaves we will hear what exactly he did not do right from players themselves.

Players want a coach who could toe their line and allow them to do whatever they want,thats why greg chappel was such a enemy of the team, fletcher is following the same principles and he will too get good words. Kirsten enjoyed his stay made friends and earned money and left ,He did not take hard decisons or interfere where his interferance was needed,We are now seeing the effects of the his policy.Only good thing he did was "He threw a lot of Balls in practice session"which helped greatly rest our bowlers and avoid injuries.

[vvvslaxman]

Players want a coach who could toe their line and allow them to do whatever they want,thats why greg chappel was such a enemy of the team, fletcher is following the same principles and he will too get good words. Kirsten enjoyed his stay made friends and earned money and left ,He did not take hard decisons or interfere where his interferance was needed,We are now seeing the effects of the his policy.Only good thing he did was "He threw a lot of Balls in practice session"which helped greatly rest our bowlers and avoid injuries.

Your "imagination" can be taken seriously if the results were shown otherwise. India was on top one moment.. it is not possible you fall into gutter within a span of few months. Least India could have done is draw a couple of tests in England if not win. But we were roundly thrashed in all formats. How exactly that can possibly happen.. Every player were particular about how he was able to keep the dressing room happy. All we hear in Fletcher's regime is dressing room feud between one player or the other.