Kirsten factor

[vvvslaxman]

If players are responsible.. why having a coach.. let us send a team without coach.

[Crookbond]

these were after world cup win. http://www.sport24.co.za/Cricket/CricketWorldCup2011/Yuvi-pays-homage-to-Kirsten-20110325 kirsten came out with a plan. He hired the personnel he wanted. He was more hands on than any coach we ever had including John Wright. Players have confirmed that several times.

You were right on two counts - He came out with a plan and he was hands on. I don't think he hired the personnel he wanted, it was the BCCI who did. He clicked with our unit. It was good and hunky dory but let not the WC wins mask the fact that we were pretty much the same team then. In fact, we are pretty much the same team since Greg Chappell! I definitely think Kirsten was valuable considering he was hands on and could "connect with players". But hey, he did take some time too. Lets all be fair to Fletcher, that's my point. He may or may not be the candidate going forward but we've got to let him complete his term to take that decision.

[CG]

Your "imagination" can be taken seriously if the results were shown otherwise. India was on top one moment.. it is not possible you fall into gutter within a span of few months. Least India could have done is draw a couple of tests in England if not win. But we were roundly thrashed in all formats. How exactly that can possibly happen..

More so that proves Kirsten has no role,Kirsten inherited a side which ahs won the t20 world cup,won test series in england,had a close series in australia and won the cb series,Actually he was not tested away we toured sa and nz ,considering sa performances at home we did decently.But problems persisted in kirsten term we were thrown out in icc champions trophy,icc world t20 and other major tourneys in odis .

[CG]

these were after world cup win. http://www.sport24.co.za/Cricket/CricketWorldCup2011/Yuvi-pays-homage-to-Kirsten-20110325 kirsten came out with a plan. He hired the personnel he wanted. He was more hands on than any coach we ever had including John Wright. Players have confirmed that several times.

:giggle::giggle:Yeah yeah kirsten plan was to employ his buddies and also let them share the pie,we know what progress our bowlers have made and how tough mentally the players are.Kirsten milked bcci and now flecther is trying to do the same but his bad luck that team is not at its peak.Biggest example is raina himself,He has had no improvement in handling the short ball even after working with kirsten.

[vvvslaxman]

More so that proves Kirsten has no role' date='Kirsten inherited a side which ahs won the t20 world cup,won test series in england,had a close series in australia and won the cb series,Actually he was not tested away we toured sa and nz ,considering sa performances at home we did decently.But problems persisted in kirsten term we were thrown out in icc champions trophy,icc world t20 and other major tourneys in odis .[/quote'] India won Asia cup under kirsten India reached no.1 in tests (including overseas tour to NZ/SA) India won world cup. Are you suggesting INdia would have suffered 0-4 in England. NO chance. Kirsten insisted on India leaving early to South Africa and India was better prepared for SA tour. Also look at Fletcher's record in Australia.. been a coach for 13 tests .. lost 12.. won an inconsequential dead rubber. That's about it. He has such an abysmal record there. Bottomline is India suffered two of their worst test series losses in their history in such a short space of time under Fletcher. Yet he should be our coach.. ? that defies logic. Only an idiot will subscribe to pursuing with him.

[CG]

India won Asia cup under kirsten India reached no.1 in tests (including overseas tour to NZ/SA) India won world cup. Are you suggesting INdia would have suffered 0-4 in England. NO chance. Kirsten insisted on India leaving early to South Africa and India was better prepared for SA tour. Also look at Fletcher's record in Australia.. been a coach for 13 tests .. lost 12.. won an inconsequential dead rubber. That's about it. He has such an abysmal record there. Bottomline is India suffered two of their worst test series losses in their history in such a short space of time under Fletcher. Yet he should be our coach.. ? that defies logic. Only an idiot will subscribe to pursuing with him.

its more idiotic to think coach would have saved us in england,We had 2 practice matches in england ,In south africa we had one and we lost more badly in the 1st test.If you want changes ,put gun on head of people who are responsible start with the captain and selectors. also I did not say fletcher should not be sacked but anybody who you get in replacement will again be a puppet of bcci and captain.

[vvvslaxman]

its more idiotic to think coach would have saved us in england' date='We had 2 practice matches in england ,In south africa we had one and we lost more badly in the 1st test.[b']I did not say fletcher should not be sacked but anybody who you get in replacement will again be a puppet of bcci and captain.

Puppet or not.. as long as team produces results.. we are okay with it. Your point of "india luckily won under kirsten unluckily lost under fletcher" is not really having any basis. Also players don't have lie about coach. They don't really have to say things like "kirsten is like a father figure to us" when he actually leaves . You cannot possibly think Suresh Raina, Yuvraj, Gambhir, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dhoni all make up stuff about coach just because he toes in their line. That is rubbish. I find their complements genuine. Former India captain Rahul Dravid says he will not forget the number of balls Kirsten threw at him in the nets, while Harbhajan Singh says the former South Africa opener made the team believe that they can win from any position, be it in Tests or ODIs. why would a guy like Dravid lie about it?

[GautiMaan]

If indians do not care about their own performance and are okay with being thrashed around the world with zero changes after these,then the problem is bigger than a coach.

[CG]

Puppet or not.. as long as team produces results.. we are okay with it. Your point of "india luckily won under kirsten unluckily lost under fletcher" is not really having any basis. Also players don't have lie about coach. They don't really have to say things like "kirsten is like a father figure to us" when he actually leaves . You cannot possibly think Suresh Raina, Yuvraj, Gambhir, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dhoni all make up stuff about coach just because he toes in their line. That is rubbish. I find their complements genuine. Former India captain Rahul Dravid says he will not forget the number of balls Kirsten threw at him in the nets, while Harbhajan Singh says the former South Africa opener made the team believe that they can win from any position, be it in Tests or ODIs. why would a guy like Dravid lie about it?

what do you expect them to say?They will say the same thing about fletcher.If you take on the system then you see what happened with chappel,youngsters like raina also praised him but our seniors look what they had to say,And everything chappel warned has come true.

[vvvslaxman]

I never had a good vibe about Fletcher from the outset.. He confirmed it after India's abandoned chase. http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-indies-v-india-2011/content/story/522606.html And so curiosity prevailed at the press conference to see the Indian team's reply to that criticism. Duncan Fletcher, India's coach, turned up. And he decided to counterattack. He got increasingly irritated with the constant questioning. Surely he expected it? Two minutes into the conference, Fletcher was beginning to steam. "I said it before. It [run-scoring on that pitch] was difficult. Once it got to four or five runs per over we were struggling to score. We were struggling to score three runs per over. The side decided it was difficult to get those runs and thought what's the point in going there and ending up maybe with just one side able to win it." Three and half minutes into it, he was fed up. "Huh ... I have covered it. I have been repeating myself the whole time. I have told you it was difficult to score runs. If a man on 40 is struggling to score at three runs an over, how can you expect someone to go in there and knock five or six runs an over?"

[vvvslaxman]

They will say the same thing about fletcher.

Let us see..

[CG]

I never had a good vibe about Fletcher from the outset.. He confirmed it after India's abandoned chase. http://www.espncricinfo.com/west-indies-v-india-2011/content/story/522606.html And so curiosity prevailed at the press conference to see the Indian team's reply to that criticism. Duncan Fletcher, India's coach, turned up. And he decided to counterattack. He got increasingly irritated with the constant questioning. Surely he expected it? Two minutes into the conference, Fletcher was beginning to steam. "I said it before. It [run-scoring on that pitch] was difficult. Once it got to four or five runs per over we were struggling to score. We were struggling to score three runs per over. The side decided it was difficult to get those runs and thought what's the point in going there and ending up maybe with just one side able to win it." Three and half minutes into it, he was fed up. "Huh ... I have covered it. I have been repeating myself the whole time. I have told you it was difficult to score runs. If a man on 40 is struggling to score at three runs an over, how can you expect someone to go in there and knock five or six runs an over?"

what can the poor chap do when captain does not want to chase and duncan needs the money .

[vvvslaxman]

what can the poor chap do when captain does not want to chase and duncan needs the money .

I saw the match live.. was he fooling us.. India was in great position to win that test. There was nothing alarming about the pitch. Kohli could have been sent up the order. There is this other thought that's prevalent in the Indian fans' minds. Shouldn't the world's No.1 team go out there and make a statement? Wouldn't Australia at their prime have gone for it? "Well, you don't think we made a statement here?", Fletcher responded when the question was put to him. "I think we made a statement. yes Big effing statement.. fatso.. this guy should have been sacked right then. If you are going to blame the team for every thing.. why the eff a coach is needed for

[Number]

If you are going to blame the team for every thing.. why the eff a coach is needed for

This.

[vvvslaxman]

Can they persuade Stephen Fleming?

[CG]

I saw the match live.. was he fooling us.. India was in great position to win that test. There was nothing alarming about the pitch. Kohli could have been sent up the order. There is this other thought that's prevalent in the Indian fans' minds. Shouldn't the world's No.1 team go out there and make a statement? Wouldn't Australia at their prime have gone for it? "Well, you don't think we made a statement here?", Fletcher responded when the question was put to him. "I think we made a statement. yes Big effing statement.. fatso.. this guy should have been sacked right then. If you are going to blame the team for every thing.. why the eff a coach is needed for

We did not do badly with out a coach.Cpatain and selectors are main problem,You can get bob simpson,gary kirsten,fleming nothing will change as the power lies in the hand of captain.

[Old guy]

yes we should blame fletcher but tbh nothing he says or do can bring team down so much..after all its the players that are not performing or maybe he taught them how to defend straight balls wrongly ? :dontknow:

[vvvslaxman]

yes we should blame fletcher but tbh nothing he says or do can bring team down so much..after all its the players that are not performing or maybe he taught them how to defend straight balls wrongly ? :dontknow:

That is the responsibility of coach too. Why a guy like Gauti keep poking outside the off stump even though it was a disaster waiting to happen. He never did this frequently before IPL. Even if he had picked this up in T20 games... he should have made the adjustment. If he kept doing, it is coach's job to help him get rid of the habit. Very teeny weeny things like this can make a great overall change to how they approach an innings as a team. Even tiny bit of improvement from everyone could have gone a long way. After that abandoned chase.. lost everything in England, Failed to whitewash windies at home, lost mostly in OZ, knocked out from Asia cup, lost the solitary T20 in SA.. that is some impressive record. You could find lot of reasons why Kirsten could have been retained.. but you cannot find one reason why we should persist with Fletcher. Even under chappell our record was not this bad. India had never lost a test series in England for 15 years until this humiliation.

[Old guy]

That is the responsibility of coach too. Why a guy like Gauti keep poking outside the off stump even though it was a disaster waiting to happen. He never did this frequently before IPL. Even if he had picked this up in T20 games... he should have made the adjustment. If he kept doing, it is coach's job to help him get rid of the habit. Very teeny weeny things like this can make a great overall change to how they approach an innings as a team. Even tiny bit of improvement from everyone could have gone a long way. After that abandoned chase.. lost everything in England, Failed to whitewash windies at home, lost mostly in OZ, knocked out from Asia cup, lost the solitary T20 in SA.. that is some impressive record. You could find lot of reasons why Kirsten could have been retained.. but you cannot find one reason why we should persist with Fletcher. Even under chappell our record was not this bad. India had never lost a test series in England for 15 years until this humiliation.

im not defending fletcher but thing is last time we won in england even w/o coach.. i think these guys specially batting department are experinced enough to deal with these minor technical problems.. come on even noobs like me can tell wht gauti is doing wrong.. its just common sense.. u leave ball out side off stump specially if ur opener..

[vvvslaxman]

im not defending fletcher but thing is last time we won in england even w/o coach.. i think these guys specially batting department are experinced enough to deal with these minor technical problems.. come on even noobs like me can tell wht gauti is doing wrong.. its just common sense.. u leave ball out side off stump specially if ur opener..

If players struggle to get rid of it (easier said than done) coach has to step in. Knowing is one thing. Implementing is another.