ICF All Time Test XI : Bowling All Rounder

[Sir john]

kapil is ATG kapil>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>imran

[CG]

As we are looking for bowling allrounder my vote for imran and i would make him the captain as well.

[Lurker]

How? Based on averages alone? Botham was vastly superior in batting to Imran during his hey days. Botham was a potential match winner with the bat and the ball. Imran had many match winning performances as a bowler, as a batsman he scored a lot of runs, but never made the impact Botham did with the bat. Botham, like Richards also scored very fast and many of his big knocks were in a match winning cause. Infact, Kapil Dev, made a bigger impact than Imran with the bat, inspite of inconsistancy and lower averages. Botham hit 14 test hundreds to Imran's six and England won nine of those matches while Pak won only once when Imran hit a hundred. Miller was also superior to Imran as a batsman.

++ Imran's stature as a batsman is down to one thing - stats. He was hardly as good a bat as Botham or Miller, even Kapil who batting went up a notch when chips were down. Imran's greatest strength was he put a price on his wicket, something Botham, Miller, Kapil didnt. Which is why the latter were also breathtaking to watch. Kind of hard to knock that Imran though, he was a tremendous cricketer and inspite of his inflated stats if he is picked purely as a bowler and contributes 35 plus, really how do you argue with that?

[Marut]

++ Imran's stature as a batsman is down to one thing - stats. He was hardly as good a bat as Botham or Miller, even Kapil who batting went up a notch when chips were down. Imran's greatest strength was he put a price on his wicket, something Botham, Miller, Kapil didnt. Which is why the latter were also breathtaking to watch. Kind of hard to knock that Imran though, he was a tremendous cricketer and inspite of his inflated stats if he is picked purely as a bowler and contributes 35 plus, really how do you argue with that?

Imran as an all rounder is better than Botham as an all rounder. Imran's batting overall is not far behind Botham, and is much superior as a bowler.

[CG]

My team Gavaskar Shewag Bradman Sachin Viv Kallis Gilchrist{wk} Imran{c} Warne Ambrose Wasim

[Lurker]

Imran as an all rounder is better than Botham as an all rounder. Imran's batting overall is not far behind Botham' date=' and is much superior as a bowler.[/quote'] I wouldnt pick Imran ahead of Botham or Kapil. Seen all the three in full flow and Imran was the best bowler but the worst batsman. Botham in his heyday combined both areas really well, although he would get lucky with his wickets. But I absolutely loved how Botham and Kapil would thrash top bowlers. Bothams batting against Australian bowlers, Lillee and Thommo was fantastic, Kapil taking on West Indies greats was awesome. Imran's batting rarely left me with that thought, although once I do remember him going nuts at a young Ambrose. In the end pretty tough to choose really. Imran's selection would be down to those who appreciate numbers. Kapil (or Botham) who enjoy a cavalier swasbuckler. Depends on what kind of cricket you like really.

[Marut]

I wouldnt pick Imran ahead of Botham or Kapil. Seen all the three in full flow and Imran was the best bowler but the worst batsman. Botham in his heyday combined both areas really well, although he would get lucky with his wickets. But I absolutely loved how Botham and Kapil would thrash top bowlers. Bothams batting against Australian bowlers, Lillee and Thommo was fantastic, Kapil taking on West Indies greats was awesome. Imran's batting rarely left me with that thought, although once I do remember him going nuts at a young Ambrose. In the end pretty tough to choose really. Imran's selection would be down to those who appreciate numbers. Kapil (or Botham) who enjoy a cavalier swasbuckler. Depends on what kind of cricket you like really.

Since the slot is bowling all rounder, it is difficult to see how Botham or Kapil can challenge Imran. As a bowler, Imran is an ATG bowler, and could get picked as a pure bowler alone, Botham and Kapil are no where close in that respect. If it were a batting all rounder position, I would go for Botham and Kapil ahead of Imran ( and give little importance to Imran's stats), as they were very exciting to watch as batsmen. For some curious reasons, Botham never raised his batting against WI quicks, but Kapil Dev used to play the WI fast bowlers with ease. And even toyed with them occasionally as he did at http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63336.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63339.html

[Number]

I'll go with Kapil Paaji. A true All rounder. :isalute: I'm biased though. :D

[Marut]

Kapil Dev was probably one of the most naturally gifted all rounders, but he did not do himself enough justice.

[Lurker]

Since the slot is bowling all rounder, it is difficult to see how Botham or Kapil can challenge Imran. As a bowler, Imran is an ATG bowler, and could get picked as a pure bowler alone, Botham and Kapil are no where close in that respect. If it were a batting all rounder position, I would go for Botham and Kapil ahead of Imran ( and give little importance to Imran's stats), as they were very exciting to watch as batsmen. For some curious reasons, Botham never raised his batting against WI quicks, but Kapil Dev used to play the WI fast bowlers with ease. And even toyed with them occasionally as he did at http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63336.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63339.html

I don't disagree with that. If I am going with bowling all-rounder it would be hard to pick Kapil or Botham ahead of Hadlee or Imran. My choice would be Hadlee perhaps since he, to me, was the best bowler of the 4. However Imran is a very strong choice as well, plus his batting @35 gives you a huge incentive down the order. My question was more to do with the all-rounder slot really. Semantics I suppose.

[Lurker]

Kapil Dev was probably one of the most naturally gifted all rounders' date=' but [b']he did not do himself enough justice.

Few years back I had wrote an article of 5 players that I have seen who underachieved, for a variety of reasons. I can remember 4 of these. Kapil Dev Wasim Akram Mark Waugh Carl Hooper. It is weird to see these names as underachiever but it is true. Kapil Dev should have had much better numbers as a bowler and a batsman. That being said it is his Devil, pun intentional, may care atitude that made him such a terrific watch. If I had to pay money to go watch players, I would pay to watch Imran & Hadlee bowl, and Botham bat...but I would pay to watch Kapil bat, bowl and field. He played the kind of game I love to watch..all bombastic and going for win every single time :two_thumbs_up:

[Marut]

Few years back I had wrote an article of 5 players that I have seen who underachieved, for a variety of reasons. I can remember 4 of these. Kapil Dev Wasim Akram Mark Waugh Carl Hooper. It is weird to see these names as underachiever but it is true. Kapil Dev should have had much better numbers as a bowler and a batsman. That being said it is his Devil, pun intentional, may care atitude that made him such a terrific watch. If I had to pay money to go watch players, I would pay to watch Imran & Hadlee bowl, and Botham bat...but I would pay to watch Kapil bat, bowl and field. He played the kind of game I love to watch..all bombastic and going for win every single time :two_thumbs_up:

Yup. When I followed Kapil Dev with great enthusiasm during his earlier years from 78-82, I was under the impression that he would end his career as a sub 25 bowler and 40+ batsman in test matches, and would be a 35+ batsman in ODIs. He had that much talent, much like Miller. Kapil Dev did not seem to have had much regards for records, he was pure entertainer from the beginning to end, though India would have benefitted much more if he had paid some heed to his own records. Imran could realize his full potential and kept improving even as he aged, Botham's decline was very steep, and Kapil Dev never improved much after a promising start that very few Indian players have ever had. Imran did not have such impressive beginnings to his career like Kapil or Botham, but he worked very hard and was improving constantly and his last 10 years were more productive than his earlier years. He averaged 19 as a bowler and 50 as a batsman for his last 10 years, amazing. You are absolutely right about others you mentioned, particularly Mark Waugh. He was talked about in the same vein as Tendulkar and Lara at one point of time, but acheived much less.

[Clarke]

So is it sort of settled that Sir Hadlee is the best bowler among the all rounders ?

[Lurker]

So is it sort of settled that Sir Hadlee is the best bowler among the all rounders ?

That was always the case.:beee:

[Marut]

So is it sort of settled that Sir Hadlee is the best bowler among the all rounders ?

Without any doubt. Imran runs him close though.

[Jimmy Cliff]

How? Based on averages alone? Botham was vastly superior in batting to Imran during his hey days. Botham was a potential match winner with the bat and the ball. Imran had many match winning performances as a bowler, as a batsman he scored a lot of runs, but never made the impact Botham did with the bat. Botham, like Richards also scored very fast and many of his big knocks were in a match winning cause. Infact, Kapil Dev, made a bigger impact than Imran with the bat, inspite of inconsistancy and lower averages. Botham hit 14 test hundreds to Imran's six and England won nine of those matches while Pak won only once when Imran hit a hundred. Miller was also superior to Imran as a batsman.

I rate Botham and Kapil ahead of Imran as batsmen (despite Imran's superior stats). I just don't consider them ATG bowlers. I can't see them as one of the top 4 bowlers of an All time Test XI. Not even close.

[thongale]

Have Imran at 8, Hadlee at 9, Marshall at 10 and Murali at 11. These four will do it by them selves. There's even case for McGrath over Hadlee or Imran as well.

[Fontaine]

So here is what my team looks like - Gavaskar Hobbs Bradman Sachin Richards Kallis Gilchrist Imran

WTF Hobbs? When did you watch him play? :hysterical:

[Clarke]

That was always the case.:beee:

Without any doubt. Imran runs him close though.

Another query: Was Hadlee any good with reverse swing ? Or simply didn't need that ?

[Marut]

To my knowledge, he did not have reverse swing ( at least I have never seen or heard), the reason he averaged only 44 in Pakistan. But he rarely needed it, Hadlee was fast, with bounce, seam, swing, cut, and the accuracy of guided missile. His leg cutters were legendary.