triam Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 the news papers are reputed and have a long history...but most newspapers carry many editorials and opinion piece and that depicts mostly one side of the story... even those news papers never mentioned thing like child abuse or kids being kidnapped for training..what they mentioned was extremely hard training... if the debate was confined to whether that training is good or bad..then it would have been objective criticism..however most people have used words like child abuse, human rights, torture and someone used the word barbaric practice...those are uncalled for in describing a very noble pursuit of excellence. As you said they are "Opinion" pieces, based on the authors experience and opinion he classifies as torture. Do you think nyt and guardian are biased and report wrong news? because if that is the case there is nothing else to talk about, that is in the same lines of 9/11 conspiracy theory guys etc.. also my earlier question will you train like that or if you have kids would send them to that training?
Lurker Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 NBA and NFL have a business model. NFL runs a NFL europe every season to promote the game in Europe. NBA has marketed the game' date=' so much in the caribbean that it is the #1 sport after soccer. Cricket has taken a background.[b'] China is a good market for US sports. Huge # of people who follow US sport/pop-culture/lifestyles/ is a good enough market for the sport to grow. We are mixing up stuff. This cynicism, with all due respect Coffee saab, is what I have problems with. Just having a market means you can sell stuff? By that token Slim Jim should launch Beef Jerky in India and expect a solid return? lol. Surely you can also concede that these franchises have a lot of following in terms of fans who love the sports and these franchises are merely milking that popularity? In other words Chinese love these sports would be an easy assumption for justifying why these franchises are making a beeline to Highway China.
urbestfriend Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 What the heck people are talking about?? You can produce gymnasts by training, but how can you produce Badminton and TT players by training in which china swept all gold medals? They have best of TT, badminton players who can come out due to a very strong internal sporting system :dontknow:
Mariyam Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 The broader point is thus - Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. One of the first sporting kahawats that I can remember was Iran ke pehelwaan. Iran has always been a formidable force on world circuit, definitely Asian circuits in Wrestling, Weighlifting and Taekwondo. And so I looked up today to see how Iran has performed in 2012. Well they have taken 4 golds already. Let that sink in. Iran has 4 effing gold. And I can guarantee you that if Iran decided to boycott 2016 Olympics, the commentators who shall cover Wrestling would be lamenting how Irani pehelwaans are being missed. That is a fair point. However, it can be argued that Iran traditionally ( or culturally) was always a power house in wrestling. They've had these akhadas ( Zorkhaneh in local lingo) for centuries. All they had to do was modify/fine tune their techniques and they were competing for the Olympic medals. India on the other hand has not been able to get the Olympic committee to accept Kabbaddi- a game we've dominated for eternity into the Olympics. In fact, none of our traditional games have made it to the Olympics. Currently, the Olympics is an amalgamation of games that are introduced by nations just because they are good at it. Basketball? TT? Tennis? Hockey? Why should these be Olympic sports? If India decided to skip 2016 Olympics rest assured nobody, in any godamn sports, shall battle an eyelid. To me that is far more embarassing point that to take stabs at a country with 50 Gold medal haul. But that may be just me :winky: Why is that embarrassing for you? The Olympics was never meant to an event that showcased the sporting prowess of a country. It was meant to be an events where athletes could compete against each other. All this medal counting for nations is completely contra the spirit of the Olympics if you ask me. This whole comparison of population to medal count argument is completely flawed. A more valid comparison would be medal count / those aware or interested in the game and medal count/ average $ spent on the athlete. Some athletes from other nations have done better than ours. Why should I, as an Indian, be embarrassed if athletes from Jamaica or Holland perform better than ours? As I see it, it is only a win win situation. If our guys win we can be proud of their achievement, if they don't, well, then so be it.
Mariyam Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 What's with the obsession to match the medal tally based on population? Who made those rules? You seem to be highly influenced by American media that you detest so much. +++++++ Meanwhile, in other news, Australia who spent loads of $$$$ on sports and whose sole reason for existence as a nation is to win Olympic golds is behind the wilderness that is Kazakhstan in the over all medal tally. A national catastrophe of gigantic proportions. Flags flying at half mast. :((
The Outsider Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 What the heck people are talking about?? You can produce gymnasts by training' date=' but how can you produce Badminton and TT players by training in which china swept all gold medals? They have best of TT, badminton players who can come out due to a very strong internal sporting system :dontknow:[/quote'] Chinese have been traditionally good in certain sports like Table Tennis and Badminton. It's not that they've started playing every sport only in the last 30 years with the aim to win Olympic medals. That does not preclude the fact that in sports like gymnastics and diving they have a conveyor belt running.
The Outsider Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 This cynicism, with all due respect Coffee saab, is what I have problems with. Just having a market means you can sell stuff? By that token Slim Jim should launch Beef Jerky in India and expect a solid return? lol. Surely you can also concede that these franchises have a lot of following in terms of fans who love the sports and these franchises are merely milking that popularity? In other words Chinese love these sports would be an easy assumption for justifying why these franchises are making a beeline to Highway China. I am sure you are aware of the kind of profits Football clubs reap in from the Indian market and their plans for growth in the Indian market. Do you think those teenagers shouting themselves hoarse in support of Manchester United "love the sports"? It's the same in China, but more so for American sports than Football and Formula One which have caught on in India. I don't know the success of lack thereof for a nation can be measured in terms of it's Olympic tally. The aim for the country should be to develop a sporting culture where Olympic medals are the byproduct, not getting Olympic medals the goal of a country's sporting vision because such a parochial vision might get you up in terms of the medal tally like North Korea and China, but causes so much loss to the society in doing so.
Crookbond Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 Here's the problem - [1] You can't believe numbers coming out of Chinese media as they are government controlled and may paint a rosy picture [2] You can't believe the Western Media as there's a conflict of interest there too I set out on asking the question to about 10 Chinese friends of mine who were born and bred for at lea st 20 years in various parts of China. Here's the crux of their responses [1] The government has setup special institutions to train kids with the Olympic medals as motive or objective [2] Most kids at these institutions are from a poor background. Since these kids enroll in these institutions the government handles their education, living costs which otherwise they won't be able to pay [3] The kids are enrolled at these places out of their parents volition, the government DOES NOT force the kids [4] The kids receive training which prepares them for the Olympics - if this means being harsh, they are harsh Here are my final thoughts after listening to my friends (who are from quite poor parts of China) [1] The Olympic institutions in China are quite similar to IITs in India [2] I don't think the government forces people [3] I feel it's a good initiative by the government Finally, I as an Indian can't be retributive about this China being "brutal" in training children. Indians are quite "brutal" in mentally training our children too. It would be more like - "Pot calling the Kettle Black" scenario.
triam Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 What the heck people are talking about?? You can produce gymnasts by training' date=' but how can you produce Badminton and TT players by training in which china swept all gold medals? They have best of TT, [b']badminton players who can come out due to a very strong internal sporting system :dontknow: I dont know about TT, but badminton you can produce players through training (not saying China wins because of that).
coffee_rules Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 I dont know about TT' date=' but badminton you can produce players through training (not saying China wins because of that).[/quote'] I have played TT at university level in India - training alone will not help. You need miraculous skill as well to get to world class. Chinese are naturally good in TT and they have been traditionally good in that sport since the 60s and 70s. They learnt it from europeans and have mastered it better than them.
triam Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 I have played TT at university level in India - training alone will not help. You need miraculous skill as well to get to world class. Chinese are naturally good in TT and they have been traditionally good in that sport since the 60s and 70s. They learnt it from europeans and have mastered it better than them. Agreed with badminton too, you need that special skill, but badminton is a very very intense sport, and takes a lot of training. I have played and still play at a competitive level,.
Crookbond Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 I have played TT at university level in India - training alone will not help. You need miraculous skill as well to get to world class. Chinese are naturally good in TT and they have been traditionally good in that sport since the 60s and 70s. They learnt it from europeans and have mastered it better than them. It's their favorite past time!
straighttalk Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 As you said they are "Opinion" pieces, based on the authors experience and opinion he classifies as torture. Do you think nyt and guardian are biased and report wrong news? because if that is the case there is nothing else to talk about, that is in the same lines of 9/11 conspiracy theory guys etc.. also my earlier question will you train like that or if you have kids would send them to that training? see again you resort to hyperbole...the newspapers never used the word torture..it said extremely harsh..torture is something people are using... and no news paper is unbiased because a reporter always provides his or her own personal opinion on things...and many might not agree. it is their duty to represent american or british interest similar to what other newspapers do. there is nothing wrong in it but they have to carter to their constituency and customer base. comparing this disagreement to 9/11 conspiracy theory is again going to another extreme..chineese media would be dubbed as propaganda but just because you and I can read english and we are so enamored with american culture,,, that we assume whatever is written there as the truth. why do you think the iraq war was based on completely false propaganda...media is always used for psy ops...and it is a know fact china and USA are huge olympic rivals. imagine if this pressure forces china to give up their training..who do you think will win more medals? I am not married ...but if my child expresses interest...I would let him join that kind of training. If he cant take it..he will quit and find some other avenue. Regarding my training, I did not have the opportunity at my age..so probably my answer wont carry much value. But ya if we had this kind of facility..I would have joined it. I do not know if I would be able to take it. But I would not blame the system but rather consider it my failure to match it.
straighttalk Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 Here's the problem - [1] You can't believe numbers coming out of Chinese media as they are government controlled and may paint a rosy picture [2] You can't believe the Western Media as there's a conflict of interest there too I set out on asking the question to about 10 Chinese friends of mine who were born and bred for at lea st 20 years in various parts of China. Here's the crux of their responses [1] The government has setup special institutions to train kids with the Olympic medals as motive or objective [2] Most kids at these institutions are from a poor background. Since these kids enroll in these institutions the government handles their education, living costs which otherwise they won't be able to pay [3] The kids are enrolled at these places out of their parents volition, the government DOES NOT force the kids [4] The kids receive training which prepares them for the Olympics - if this means being harsh, they are harsh Here are my final thoughts after listening to my friends (who are from quite poor parts of China) [1] The Olympic institutions in China are quite similar to IITs in India [2] I don't think the government forces people [3] I feel it's a good initiative by the government Finally, I as an Indian can't be retributive about this China being "brutal" in training children. Indians are quite "brutal" in mentally training our children too. It would be more like - "Pot calling the Kettle Black" scenario. thanks ...you sum it up brilliantly... I have been trying to say the exactly same thing for so long...but this is what I know happens and it is good to see someone impartial back it up..knowing that you are not totally convinced by that sort of training.
straighttalk Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 I am sure you are aware of the kind of profits Football clubs reap in from the Indian market and their plans for growth in the Indian market. Do you think those teenagers shouting themselves hoarse in support of Manchester United "love the sports"? It's the same in China, but more so for American sports than Football and Formula One which have caught on in India. I don't know the success of lack thereof for a nation can be measured in terms of it's Olympic tally. The aim for the country should be to develop a sporting culture where Olympic medals are the byproduct, not getting Olympic medals the goal of a country's sporting vision because such a parochial vision might get you up in terms of the medal tally like North Korea and China, but causes so much loss to the society in doing so. what is the loss to the society? PLease consider Dexter Morgan's post before you reply? It might not be ideal but is it leading to stunted growth. Or is it providing livelihood and chance for glory to people who are otherwise going to languish as child laborers
jind Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 All the sports need training and the "skill" comes with years of training the same shot again and again.
straighttalk Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 That is a fair point. However, it can be argued that Iran traditionally ( or culturally) was always a power house in wrestling. They've had these akhadas ( Zorkhaneh in local lingo) for centuries. All they had to do was modify/fine tune their techniques and they were competing for the Olympic medals. India on the other hand has not been able to get the Olympic committee to accept Kabbaddi- a game we've dominated for eternity into the Olympics. In fact, none of our traditional games have made it to the Olympics. Currently, the Olympics is an amalgamation of games that are introduced by nations just because they are good at it. Basketball? TT? Tennis? Hockey? Why should these be Olympic sports? Why is that embarrassing for you? The Olympics was never meant to an event that showcased the sporting prowess of a country. It was meant to be an events where athletes could compete against each other. All this medal counting for nations is completely contra the spirit of the Olympics if you ask me. This whole comparison of population to medal count argument is completely flawed. A more valid comparison would be medal count / those aware or interested in the game and medal count/ average $ spent on the athlete. Some athletes from other nations have done better than ours. Why should I, as an Indian, be embarrassed if athletes from Jamaica or Holland perform better than ours? As I see it, it is only a win win situation. If our guys win we can be proud of their achievement, if they don't, well, then so be it. Mariyam,, Care to check India's history in wrestling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pehlwani why do you think we win jack in it..these days? the problem can be summed up in few lines....lack of interest and apathy, no pursuit of excellence, olympic medals are not important, not much money if you fail, infrastructure, and lack of government support. Last I read 50 million USD was allocated for this Olympics. You asked why winning medals will be the end target for athletes? I assume you are a lawyer by profession...do you go to your job accepting the fact that if you lose it is not a big deal. Or do you play to win and try to give it all you have to win..research, train, practice...and keep no stone unturned to WIN. Why will it be different for an athlete training for Olympics? Why as a nation should we accept the fact that as a nation of billions we will win only four. If that is not shameful, what else is? It says we are physically unfit, not a strong country...it says we are soft. Olympic gold will create a buzz, making more people take up sports, create a culture and maybe oneday we can compete with USA or China. That is why going for GOLD is ****ing awesome. In India, we give more importance to our brain and ignore the amazing machine that our body is...I guess you do not practice physical fitness in the same earnestness as you practice your craft..if you did you will understand how every cell of your body adapts to progressive loading and in the end your performance skyrockets.
straighttalk Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 australia's poor performance in Olympics (relatively) and see how concerned they are... http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/08/08/gold-medal-funding-means-more-gold-medals-right/ http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/london-games/no-crisis-but-lundy-points-to-sport-review-after-poor-olympic-medal-haul/story-e6frgdg6-1226443787985 http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/08/07/3562610.htm http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/australia-losing-more-than-medals/story-e6frfhqo-1226444262859 http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/08/10/london-and-montreal-a-case-of-olympic-deja-vu/ why do you think they want sports to be made compulsory in school? Why aren't they concerned about fundamental human rights such as if a kid is not interested in sports..why is he or she being forced to play in Australia? This is the kind of attitude that creates a fit healthy nation and wins you gold. If educated people like in this forum think going for Gold is a waste of time..no wonder we are laggards in every aspect of life.... even in our so called IT industry..we are just serving other companies..there is no push for product development but refined service. Olympics reflect a nation's desire for excellence and success and that is why it is so important.
Crookbond Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 Once again - I have a personal opinion to this. We shouldn't go full scale on all the games in Olympics IF we want to make a mark. I will mark out certain games like boxing, wrestling, archery, shooting etc. and will support these over others. We just need to make a list of 10 sports and provide same facilities to work within our budget - whatever amount that this. So we just "focus" on certain aspects. Now once done and these sports/games achieve their goal, we move on to the next 10. The assumption is once the Top 10 reach a level they would get enough corporate sponsorship/recognition to become self sufficient.
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