Is Dhoni greatest captain wicket keeper ever ?

[Crookbond]

Yup' date=' Dhoni isn't worse than Engineer and the stats prove the same. [b']As for Dravid & Azhar I don't even have a clue how you are bringing that into discussion or what it has to do anything with the debate :dontknow: Neither Dravid & Azhar were wks so the comparison with them is moot but I guess since you have egg on your face after the last kiwi series and with the amazing insights into Dhoni's inflated average due to his "dismissals" against no-balls you will do anything to find a way out :haha: Between I didn't see any Dhoni dismissals off no-balls the last innings so how did he manage to score those "cheap" runs I am sure you will enlighten and entertain us at the same time :haha: I am still waiting for any proof which shows More was ahead of Dhoni or Mongia completely outperformed Dhoni. Raghav uncle tried to do so but when pointed out that More's keeping wasn't as stellar he ran away :haha: I hope you provide more proof than making statements like "Dravid & Azhar were better" or "Mongia/More/Ratra were clearly better than Dhoni" :giggle:

Even I have no clue where that has come from to be honest :dontknow:

[Crookbond]

^^^^ But Mongia's away average of 18 didn't have any "cheap" runs and he played some great "fighting" knocks :dontknow:

Probably bowlers in those era bowled fewer no balls :idunno:

[The Outsider]

Knocks played at Delhi,Mumbai and Chennai Interestingly Mongia doesnt have a 50 in Australia or England,so away conditions are not a criteria for Mongia to be good wk batsman but it is for Dhoni.

How about if you list a single knock of Dhoni better than the above 3, home or away. Please take into consideration the difficulty of batting conditions, quality of bowling attack, and match impact.

[The Outsider]

Yup, Dhoni isn't worse than Engineer and the stats prove the same. As for Dravid & Azhar I don't even have a clue how you are bringing that into discussion or what it has to do anything with the debate :dontknow: Neither Dravid & Azhar were wks so the comparison with them is moot but I guess since you have egg on your face after the last kiwi series and with the amazing insights into Dhoni's inflated average due to his "dismissals" against no-balls you will do anything to find a way out :haha: Between I didn't see any Dhoni dismissals off no-balls the last innings so how did he manage to score those "cheap" runs I am sure you will enlighten and entertain us at the same time :haha:

Can you share with us the stat which "proves" Dhoni is better than Engineer.

[GautiMaan]

How about if you list a single knock of Dhoni better than the above 3' date=' home or away. Please take into consideration the difficulty of batting conditions, quality of bowling attack, and match impact.[/quote'] Dont know whether they were better than Mongia's but off the top of my head i can say faisalabad and the Lords test in 2007,but u were terming Dhoni as a walking wicket bcoz of his performances abroad,so now will u admit that Mongia was also a walking wicket?

[ganeshran]

Yup' date=' Dhoni isn't worse than Engineer and the stats prove the same. [/quote'] So, Dhoni with his average of 38 against poor attacks at home isnt worse than Engineer who scored at 31 opening the innings against great attacks in a bowler friendly era. Indeed stats prove the same, they also prove that Samaraveera isnt worse than Gavaskar :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Dravid and Azhar has more to do with the debate than you bringing Ratra in the debate. Atleast in this case, a fellow dhoni bhakt actually claimed that Dhoni's test batting is comparable to Dravid and Azhar and the only reason why Giclhrist averages higher than Dhoni is because he was not skipper. :giggle: Yup plenty of egg on my face :(( After doing zilch in 7 matches abroad and 2 at home, Dhoni scored against the mighty kiwis at home :omg: Didnt know his cheerleaders' expectations were so low. :cheerleader: I for one expected best Indian keeper batsman of all time and best captain wicketkeeper ATG Shri Mahendar Singh Dhoniji to perform well put up some fight in our 8-0 defeat.. My bad

[The Outsider]

Dont jnow whether they were better than Mongia's but off the top of my head i can say faisalabad and the Lords test in 2007' date='but u were terming Dhoni as a walking wicket bcoz of his performances abroad,so now will u admit that Mongia was also a walking wicket?[/quote'] Faisalabad was the baap of all pattas and Akhtar was the only top bowler in the opposition. Yeah, India were in a bit of trouble but the pitch was as flat as they come. Lords would figure in my top 10 by Indian keepers but again just compare the bowling attack in above innings and Lords. In fact the last 10 overs or so were bowled by Vaughan and Panesar due to bad light. Yeah, Mongia was obviously no great batsman and it's damning that Dhoni does even have a knock superior to Mongia despite a higher average. In keeping Mongia was miles better. Anyone who saw him keep to Kumble on the dust bowls of the 90s would agree I guess.

[Crookbond]

Personal Opinion 57 * vs Pakistan Delhi http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/297806.html 148 vs Pakistan Faislabad http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/233797.html 64 vs England Mumbai http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/238187.html 34 and 47 vs South Africa Durban http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/249216.html 76* vs England Lords http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/258468.html These are some stand out performances by Dhoni (not comparing to Mongia or anyone). PS - I have not included innings where he has come and scored quick runs for the team when required. I count them very important innings too.

[GautiMaan]

Faisalabad was the baap of all pattas and Akhtar was the only top bowler in the opposition. Yeah, India were in a bit of trouble but the pitch was as flat as they come. Lords would figure in my top 10 by Indian keepers but again just compare the bowling attack in above innings and Lords. In fact the last 10 overs or so were bowled by Vaughan and Panesar due to bad light. Yeah, Mongia was obviously no great batsman and it's damning that Dhoni does even have a knock superior to Mongia despite a higher average. In keeping Mongia was miles better. Anyone who saw him keep to Kumble on the dust bowls of the 90s would agree I guess.

But the poor average does tell us something too,Mongia was not someone who could be depended to produce a fighting knock when required Mongia played some quality knocks once in 3 years,so i guess there's still time for Dhoni:wink:

[The Outsider]

But the poor average does tell us something too' date='Mongia was not someone who could be [b']depended to produce a fighting knock when required Mongia played some quality knocks once in 3 years,so i guess there's still time for Dhoni:wink:

Obviously, Mongia could not be depended on to produce good knocks and yet he produced at least 3 better than Dhoni has ever produced despite playing many more matches.

[Trichromatic]

Yeah, Mongia was obviously no great batsman and it's damning that Dhoni does even have a knock superior to Mongia despite a higher average. In keeping Mongia was miles better. Anyone who saw him keep to Kumble on the dust bowls of the 90s would agree I guess.

That happens to many players. Didn't Sachin miss out in list of top 100 innings even after being regarded as best batsman?

[Laaloo]

Greatest Captain Wicket Keeper? Who are his competitors? Glichrist didn't captain that many games neither did Andy Flower. Once again he wins due to TINA factor :P

[The Outsider]

That happens to many players. Didn't Sachin miss out in list of top 100 innings even after being regarded as best batsman?

The Wisden list is crap, as it lays too much weight on matches won. There are huge inconsistencies with it as would be any such ranking system based on a computer program. But besides that, there is no way Tendulkar is unequivocally the best batsman of even the modern era. Though I do consider him the best but there is enough room for counter arguments. Even among Indian batsmen quite a few consider Gavaskar to be better.

[Ultimate_Game]

Can you share with us the stat which "proves" Dhoni is better than Engineer.

Onus is on you to prove X, Y and Z are better than Dhoni. I have already shown what More was able to achieve and Dexter pretty much showed how "great" Mongia has been away with the glorious away averages of 18 :giggle:

So, Dhoni with his average of 38 against poor attacks at home isnt worse than Engineer who scored at 31 opening the innings against great attacks in a bowler friendly era. Indeed stats prove the same, they also prove that Samaraveera isnt worse than Gavaskar :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Dravid and Azhar has more to do with the debate than you bringing Ratra in the debate. Atleast in this case, a fellow dhoni bhakt actually claimed that Dhoni's test batting is comparable to Dravid and Azhar and the only reason why Giclhrist averages higher than Dhoni is because he was not skipper. :giggle: Yup plenty of egg on my face :(( After doing zilch in 7 matches abroad and 2 at home, Dhoni scored against the mighty kiwis at home :omg: Didnt know his cheerleaders' expectations were so low. :cheerleader: I for one expected best Indian keeper batsman of all time and best captain wicketkeeper ATG Shri Mahendar Singh Dhoniji to perform well put up some fight in our 8-0 defeat.. My bad

I am still awaiting anything substantial in terms of stats to prove a player a better wk-batsman than Dhoni. First it was More - myth busted, then it was Mongia - again stats nowhere close to Dhoni. Now it's Engineer. It seems anyone and everyone is better than Dhoni :haha: So you take some random statement from someone else on an internet forum that "Dhoni is better than Azhar, Dravid etc." which is neither related to me as I didn't make that comment nor does it have anything to do with the debate. Ratra is used in the debate as he was a wk batsman which is what the debate is about :dontknow: Egg on your face coz you claimed that Dhoni scores "cheap" runs and has inflated average due to him getting dismissed off no-balls :haha: Now after the claim was called out you are going to 0-8 by blaming the batting failure on a wk-batsman :omg: Here's your stand so far... 1. Dhoni is cr@p and scores "cheap" runs 2. Dhoni's average inflated coz of dismissals off no-bals :giggle: 3. When India was in danger of losing the Test to kiwis "Dhoni should take moral responsibility for the failure as he was the captain" even when the failure was of the batsmen in question like a 40 year old has been. 4. After Dhoni ensured the Test win by nerveless finish in Test this time "So what he only did it against kiwis" :haha: You have been owned by Dhoni's performances and the stats so far and your logic is "heads I win, tails you lose" :cantstop: I am still awaiting any substantial stat which proves More or Mongia were better than Dhoni and so far nothing but zilch from your side.

[Ultimate_Game]

The Wisden list is crap, as it lays too much weight on matches won. There are huge inconsistencies with it as would be any such ranking system based on a computer program. But besides that, there is no way Tendulkar is unequivocally the best batsman of even the modern era. Though I do consider him the best but there is enough room for counter arguments. Even among Indian batsmen quite a few consider Gavaskar to be better.

Yup wisden list is cr@p coz Tendulkar didn't make it but it holds true in Dhoni's case :hysterical:

[The Outsider]

Onus is on you to prove X, Y and Z are better than Dhoni. I have already shown what More was able to achieve and Dexter pretty much showed how "great" Mongia has been away with the glorious away averages of 18 :giggle:

LOL! You are claiming to have statistical proof that Dhoni is better than Engineer and onus is on me to prove the opposite?

[The Outsider]

Yup wisden list is cr@p coz Tendulkar didn't make it but it holds true in Dhoni's case :hysterical:

You can believe Wisden all you want as long as you agree Tendulkar's 136 is worse than your favorite Jaya's 242.

[Ultimate_Game]

LOL! You are claiming to have statistical proof that Dhoni is better than Engineer and onus is on me to prove the opposite?

Check out cricinfo and it already says that Dhoni is the highest scorer for India as a wk batsman along with the highest average of 38 amongst wk-batsmen :dontknow: I rest my case. Between what happened to More and then Mongia better than Dhoni :giggle:

[Ultimate_Game]

You can believe Wisden all you want as long as you agree Tendulkar's 136 is worse than your favorite Jaya's 242.

If Jaya's 242 wins the match and Tendulkar's 136 doesn't I will actuall rate it higher. But I guess we don't have the "anyone but Dhoni" goggles on :haha:

[Crookbond]

I don't think UG is claiming Engineer better than Dhoni & I remember him explicitly mentioning on this thread earlier too. IMO, he's quite fed up that there are some bizarre arguments like "no balls" (FFS? :facepalm: ) and names (More :banghead:) to pull down Dhoni - most of them are Tendulkar fans who want to settle the scores (special mention to MTC here who is quite butt hurt). In fact, I don't even understand how Azhar came into picture :dontknow: In this entire signal, there is huge amount of transmission error leading to a weak signal and weak "gain".