Where are India's next test openers?

[bharat297]

well this year there have been good tracks and many young bowlers are impressing actually i think this new selection panel is doing good job with bowling rewarding guys like bhuv kumar and shami about ishant untill he changes his attitude abt his performance and stop blaming his luck he is never going to improve and in england he bowled better then before but clearly it was not good enough ..they day he starts bowling bit fuller and attack the stumps more the iwll be 2 x effective all i wanna know is u blame ranji for bowlers having bad lengths and habits but why is ishant like this ? i think length can be easily worked on with coaches australian bowlers all of them try to bowl bit fuller and they are getting the rewards and htis started happening after they appointed new coach..

Ok a few points there: * This season I hear the BCCI are encouraging a wider variety of pitches. Thats a good sign but it hasn't been happening for long enough. * The reason I am blaming Ranji is that most bowlers I've seen that bowl well at Ranji bowl far too short at international level and immediately get smashed. E.g. Dinda, Mithun, Vinay Kumar, etc. Even before that we had bowlers like Joginder Sharma, VRV Singh, Avishkar Salvi, Gony, and many others. This is not just one or two bowlers. I am seeing a general trend. I dont see that trend happening in Australia for instance. Yes there are some bowlers who didnt do well in the adjustment but most bowlers that come from success at domestic in Australia do reasonably well at international level. E.g. Starc, Pattinson, Copeland, Jackson Bird all immediately looked the part in international cricket whereas most of our bowlers look like kids playing with men. You have to question whether the domestic system is doing its job which is to prepare them for international cricket * Ishant's problem is different. Its a technical thing. He has shown in spells when he gets the wrist position right, he can take wickets quickly. I don't think he's bowled too bad in the last year but he needs to go back to domestic cricket. Only not Indian domestic cricket, because I dont think that will help him. I think county cricket in England will help him like it did for Zaheer.

[CG]

Ok a few points there: * This season I hear the BCCI are encouraging a wider variety of pitches. Thats a good sign but it hasn't been happening for long enough. * The reason I am blaming Ranji is that most bowlers I've seen that bowl well at Ranji bowl far too short at international level and immediately get smashed. E.g. Dinda, Mithun, Vinay Kumar, etc. Even before that we had bowlers like Joginder Sharma, VRV Singh, Avishkar Salvi, Gony, and many others. This is not just one or two bowlers. I am seeing a general trend. I dont see that trend happening in Australia for instance. Yes there are some bowlers who didnt do well in the adjustment but most bowlers that come from success at domestic in Australia do reasonably well at international level. E.g. Starc, Pattinson, Copeland, Jackson Bird all immediately looked the part in international cricket whereas most of our bowlers look like kids playing with men. You have to question whether the domestic system is doing its job which is to prepare them for international cricket * Ishant's problem is different. Its a technical thing. He has shown in spells when he gets the wrist position right, he can take wickets quickly. I don't think he's bowled too bad in the last year but he needs to go back to domestic cricket. Only not Indian domestic cricket, because I dont think that will help him. I think county cricket in England will help him like it did for Zaheer.

Regarding county cricket zak has a terrible work ethic and gained weight .county cricket helped him in that regard but ishant already has a great work ethic ,He needs guidance from a good bowling coach and team management.

[bharat297]

Regarding county cricket zak has a terrible work ethic and gained weight .county cricket helped him in that regard but ishant already has a great work ethic ' date='He needs guidance from a good bowling coach and team management.[/quote'] Yes but where county cricket can help him is encouraging him to bowl that fuller length because the pitches are encouraging for that. He can't do that on Indian pitches as much. I think Ishant is being overcoached. I think he just needs to go away and bowl long spells again.

[Magneto]

Thats a very naive approach. You need to actually look at how they bowl. Maybe they beat the bat a lot. Maybe they were bowling defensively. If all you're looking at is stats' date=' then your opinion could be generated by a software algorithm. Well done![/quote'] You think it's a naive approach when you have facts and figures to back up what you say, but hypothetical assumptions (without any evidence) is a wise approach? :hmmm: I don't know how you can state that someone is the best bowler in the country when you probably haven't even watched him bowling in a first-class match. But if some so-called skills (which the bowler has hardly ever displayed in first-class matches) is the basis on your crowning someone king, then 'well done' to you as well. :good: And here we are talking about someone who does not even get a spot in the Mumbai U-22 team, simply because he cannot buy a wicket anywhere. Performances do speak part of the truth at least, unlike someone's assumptions of someone's supposed skills.

[bharat297]

You think it's a naive approach when you have facts and figures to back up what you say, but hypothetical assumptions (without any evidence) is a wise approach? :hmmm: I don't know how you can state that someone is the best bowler in the country when you probably haven't even watched him bowling in a first-class match. But if some so-called skills (which the bowler has hardly ever displayed in first-class matches) is the basis on your crowning someone king, then 'well done' to you as well. :good: And here we are talking about someone who does not even get a spot in the Mumbai U-22 team, simply because he cannot buy a wicket anywhere. Performances do speak part of the truth at least, unlike someone's assumptions of someone's supposed skills.

First of all I have watched him bowl and I said atm on skill I would put him as the best spinner we have. I have already told you why I struggle to read too much into ranji trophy because I believe it doesn't do many bowlers good. I've already rattled off a list of names who have good ranji records but have looked hopeless internationally. Dinda, mithun, vinay Kumar, mishra, joginder, gony, vrv, and many others. Compared to other countries like Australia and England we have a terrible conversion rate between domestic success and international success. Now we can blame that on selectors, coaches, captains, etc. but maybe we should stop and wonder why with the mass of talent we have we've produced so few world class bowlers. Why is it that our best domestic bowlers are consistently not good enough at international level? we've been struggling in the spin department since 2008 ... Here we have a spinner with tremendous talent (just because you can't see that doesn't deny that) and to prove himself we ask him to play in a comp that has effectively ended careers of our bowlers. If we had a set of quality spinners then yesI agree but we don't.

[Magneto]

First of all I have watched him bowl and I said atm on skill I would put him as the best spinner we have. I have already told you why I struggle to read too much into ranji trophy because I believe it doesn't do many bowlers good. I've already rattled off a list of names who have good ranji records but have looked hopeless internationally. Dinda, mithun, vinay Kumar, mishra, joginder, gony, vrv, and many others. Compared to other countries like Australia and England we have a terrible conversion rate between domestic success and international success. Now we can blame that on selectors, coaches, captains, etc. but maybe we should stop and wonder why with the mass of talent we have we've produced so few world class bowlers. Why is it that our best domestic bowlers are consistently not good enough at international level? we've been struggling in the spin department since 2008 ... Here we have a spinner with tremendous talent (just because you can't see that doesn't deny that) and to prove himself we ask him to play in a comp that has effectively ended careers of our bowlers. If we had a set of quality spinners then yesI agree but we don't.

Firstly, there is not much debate about the fact that Harmeet is talented. But talent is not the sole criterion for performance, factors such as temperament, accuracy, experience, the ability to improve are some of the factors that determines whether someone will succeed or not. You are subverting the argument by naming players who have been successful in Ranji but not successful in Test cricket. There will be plenty of examples like those all over the world, simply because the best players of the country are busy with international cricket, and the fringe players fight it out among themselves in the domestics. That is natural. But there will be very few people who perform poorly in domestics and do well in internationals. You are possibly claiming that Harmeet would be one of those rare ones. It's like claiming that a batsman who averages 15 in Ranji cricket might be India's best batsman just because many Indian domestic batting giants have not done well in internationals. Let me put it in one line - The skill of Harmeet that you talk about has hardly been seen from him in Indian domestic cricket.

[Old guy]

i asked him to name one guy who was poor in ranji and got into team without any good performance...even asked him to read abt bhajji..

[bharat297]

Firstly, there is not much debate about the fact that Harmeet is talented. But talent is not the sole criterion for performance, factors such as temperament, accuracy, experience, the ability to improve are some of the factors that determines whether someone will succeed or not. You are subverting the argument by naming players who have been successful in Ranji but not successful in Test cricket. There will be plenty of examples like those all over the world, simply because the best players of the country are busy with international cricket, and the fringe players fight it out among themselves in the domestics. That is natural. But there will be very few people who perform poorly in domestics and do well in internationals. You are possibly claiming that Harmeet would be one of those rare ones. It's like claiming that a batsman who averages 15 in Ranji cricket might be India's best batsman just because many Indian domestic batting giants have not done well in internationals. Let me put it in one line - The skill of Harmeet that you talk about has hardly been seen from him in Indian domestic cricket.

You've misunderstood me. I'm not saying not to reward domestic performance. India should pick the best spinner in domestic cricket. What I am saying is right now because we're going through what I would deem a spin crisis where we're going backwards recycling through Mishra and Chawla over and over again, if we unearth a talented new spinner who might not necessarily have had a great deal of domestic experience then the selectors should be brave enough to blood him in the A-tours to give him a chance to learn on a wider variety of surfaces. If he does well there then I feel that is more of a reflection of his potential at international level than Ranji trophy. This is a case of identifying a talented cricketer and putting him on an accelerated path. It's happened before in other countries. Shane Warne's first season of first class cricket saw him take 1 wicket at an average of 102. He was later that year selected for Australia B. I'm not saying Harmeet Singh will be the next Shane Warne but I'm saying you need to be able to identify the talented players. At that point in time in Australian cricket, spin bowling was at a low point so they had to look for raw talent that could be honed. I was using the example of poor Ranji Trophy to International performers to illustrate that right now given how bare our spin cupboard is, we shouldn't judge purely on Ranji Trophy performance (because we've seen that bowlers that spend too long at Ranji fall into bad habits, e.g. bowling too short). We should pick a crop of talented young spinners (including those that have performed consistently in Ranji) such as Harmeet, Darekar, Abdulla, V.Mishra, etc. and blood them in the A-team where they can tour abroad and get as close to international experience as possible. Like I said, if we had a set of good spinners performing at the moment then yes. But right now we dont have that luxury and if we want to remain competitive.

[Chandan]

So for next year's SA A tour if we have to choose the openers, who do we choose: I'll give one more chance to Mukund and maybe this will be final chance. If he failed in tour, someone else will get a chance in two home A tours vs WI and NZ. The second opener will Punjab's Jiwanjyot just to find out how much can we trust the Ranji's great performances and that too runs made on seamer friendly Mohali track. Mukund Jiwanjyot In middle morder I'd definitely like to have Rahane, Rohit and even Pujara(to have more exposure of SAan pitches and conditions). Others can be anyone, like Manoj Tiwari. Pujaja Rohit Rahane Tiwari For keeper I'd recommend Saha just to have continuity. I do not know which keeper has done well in keeping on tricky tracks as reports hardly ever mention that. Batting of the keeper comes second, no? Or our selectors won't think that way? Saha Now among seamers, we need to groom as many seamers as possible. Hence all the new one should be fine: Shami, B Kumar, P Kumar (if fit), Pankaj Singh, Sandeep Singh. None of them are express. But then, what to do? This is most tricky part: spinners! Who can we take? I'm clueless guys. Those whom we used to take have done abysmally. So no chance for them. How do we build a bench strength here? Don't tell me Chawla here. Mishra is better than him, any day.I don't want to choose eith though. But do help in choosing two. Do we take the flighting dipping, drifting Harmeet? How effective will he be on SAan tracks?

[CG]

So for next year's SA A tour if we have to choose the openers, who do we choose: I'll give one more chance to Mukund and maybe this will be final chance. If he failed in tour, someone else will get a chance in two home A tours vs WI and NZ. The second opener will Punjab's Jiwanjyot just to find out how much can we trust the Ranji's great performances and that too runs made on seamer friendly Mohali track. Mukund Jiwanjyot In middle morder I'd definitely like to have Rahane, Rohit and even Pujara(to have more exposure of SAan pitches and conditions). Others can be anyone, like Manoj Tiwari. Pujaja Rohit Rahane Tiwari For keeper I'd recommend Saha just to have continuity. I do not know which keeper has done well in keeping on tricky tracks as reports hardly ever mention that. Batting of the keeper comes second, no? Or our selectors won't think that way? Saha Now among seamers, we need to groom as many seamers as possible. Hence all the new one should be fine: Shami, B Kumar, P Kumar (if fit), Pankaj Singh, Sandeep Singh. None of them are express. But then, what to do? This is most tricky part: spinners! Who can we take? I'm clueless guys. Those whom we used to take have done abysmally. So no chance for them. How do we build a bench strength here? Don't tell me Chawla here. Mishra is better than him, any day.I don't want to choose eith though. But do help in choosing two. Do we take the flighting dipping, drifting Harmeet? How effective will he be on SAan tracks?

Mukund is struggling even in first class cricket.

[Chandan]

Mukund is struggling even in first class cricket.

I know. Yet, I'm giving one last chance to him. Maybe he'll gain form in next 7 months. Its not as if he is 40 yrs old and can't reverse.

[diga]

In middle morder I'd definitely like to have Rahane, Rohit and even Pujara(to have more exposure of SAan pitches and conditions). Others can be anyone, like Manoj Tiwari. Pujaja Rohit Rahane Tiwari

Steyn doesnt have a great record against left handers.. I would pick a left hander there in the middle order - Parthiv Patel is my choice. May be U.Chand will go on the tour for more exposure to seaming conditions

[Magneto]

Mukund is struggling even in first class cricket.

Mukund would still probably be a better long-term bet than the others. In context - Rahul Sharma and Nadeem can be tried out in A-tours.

[CG]

Steyn doesnt have a great record against left handers.. I would pick a left hander there in the middle order - Parthiv Patel is my choice. May be U.Chand will go on the tour for more exposure to seaming conditions

Morkel eats and drinks lefthanders.

[Chandan]

Steyn doesnt have a great record against left handers.. I would pick a left hander there in the middle order - Parthiv Patel is my choice. May be U.Chand will go on the tour for more exposure to seaming conditions

Steyn won't play A cricket. And Chand is an opener who is just settling down in 4 day format. Can't be awarded an A spot over other deserving candidates.

[Magneto]

So for next year's SA A tour if we have to choose the openers, who do we choose: I'll give one more chance to Mukund and maybe this will be final chance. If he failed in tour, someone else will get a chance in two home A tours vs WI and NZ. The second opener will Punjab's Jiwanjyot just to find out how much can we trust the Ranji's great performances and that too runs made on seamer friendly Mohali track. Mukund Jiwanjyot In middle morder I'd definitely like to have Rahane, Rohit and even Pujara(to have more exposure of SAan pitches and conditions). Others can be anyone, like Manoj Tiwari. Pujaja Rohit Rahane Tiwari For keeper I'd recommend Saha just to have continuity. I do not know which keeper has done well in keeping on tricky tracks as reports hardly ever mention that. Batting of the keeper comes second, no? Or our selectors won't think that way? Saha Now among seamers, we need to groom as many seamers as possible. Hence all the new one should be fine: Shami, B Kumar, P Kumar (if fit), Pankaj Singh, Sandeep Singh. None of them are express. But then, what to do? This is most tricky part: spinners! Who can we take? I'm clueless guys. Those whom we used to take have done abysmally. So no chance for them. How do we build a bench strength here? Don't tell me Chawla here. Mishra is better than him, any day.I don't want to choose eith though. But do help in choosing two. Do we take the flighting dipping, drifting Harmeet? How effective will he be on SAan tracks?

You're confusing Sandeep Singh and Sandeep Sharma. Some major Singh/Sharma confusion going on at ICF. :giggle: Bowling anyway should be - Shami, Pankaj, Ishwar Pandey and Sandeep Sharma maybe. I think they'll carry over Unadkat too.

[diga]

Steyn won't play A cricket. And Chand is an opener who is just settling down in 4 day format. Can't be awarded an A spot over other deserving candidates.

I meant trialling a leftie for the main tour... Regarding Chand, selection is not only about stats but also instincts. We have generally seen a U-19 yongster going on such tours. He was there in the NZ Atour.

[Chandan]

I meant trialling a leftie for the main tour... Regarding Chand' date=' selection is not only about stats but also instincts. We have generally seen a U-19 yongster going on such tours. He was there in the NZ Atour.[/quote'] Yes. Didn't quite justify the selection, as he could hit just 1 half ton when the track was at its easiest and even Mukund hit big tons.

[Sooda]

Sending Pujara is a good idea to expose him to SA conditiions but he is a test senior now so selectors may not do that. When are the A team touring SA? Depends also on what India seniors doing then. Squad could be similar to one that SHOULD HAVE gone to WI and NZ- Mukund, Rahane, Pujara ©, Rohit, Tiwary, R Jadeja, Saha, Pankaj, Dinda, Awana, Shanbaz Nadeem Jiwanjot, Shami Ahmed, Parthiv, Another Spinner The pacemen Ive listed should be ahead in the pecking order than Ishwar Pandey and the Sharmas- let Ishwar, Mohit and Sandeep have another good season to follow the one they have had this year before they cna play A team cricket Id really like to see Rahane groomed as an opener, but dont think that is happening.

[rkt.india]

Shami, B Kumar, P Kumar (if fit), Pankaj Singh, Sandeep Singh. None of them are express. But then, what to do?

Where is Ishwar Pandey, the most successful pacer of the season? PK should not be there as there is nothing for him to learn or prove there. If selectors want him in the team and he is fit, he can directly be in the Indian team. Shami B Kumar I Pandey Pankaj Singh Sandeep Sharma