God damnit Dhoni will be retained as cap for Test team

[Crookbond]

Kya CG - subah subha uthkar Dhoni Hai Hai Chaalu! :giggle: Good Morning :icflove:

[CG]

Kya CG - subah subha uthkar Dhoni Hai Hai Chaalu! :giggle: Good Morning :icflove:

good morning.

[Magneto]

How many games did Pujara captain India-A ? Graeme Smith had captained a team for well over 50+ matches before he was given national captaincy. It is important to have experience in decision-making, man-management and thinktank coordination that are part and parcel of being a captain and this is where Smith had oodles of experience while Pujara barely has any. He has done zilch outside of the subcontinent, which is the true test of a middle order bat. Smith had already scored at a blazing amount of runs in one of the most testing circumstances as an opening bat and as such, he was assured far greater leeway than Pujara has right now. As i said, if Pujara has a sub-30 average against OZ and in RSA, he would be a goner. Smith had more rope than that. No. Smith's spot was garanteed for atleast the next half a dozen series, if not more, sort of how Faf du Plessis has garanteed his spot in the RSA team for the next year. Smith showed up, scored at 55+ average as an opener, for a nation who's best opener had 44 average. That in of itself is enough of a rope to garantee for atleast the next year or two.

a) Do list the 50 matches Smith had captained his team for. I would like to see his performance there. Haha, actually don't bother because he didn't captain South Africa in anything significant. Was not the U-19 captain at the World Cup, neither was he the captain for the South Africa U-19 to Pakistan, where they played a few Youth Tests and ODIs. Tsolekile the keeper, was the captain. That's why when he took up captaincy, he looked just okay in his first 2 years and not god's gift to cricket captaincy that you're making him out to be. I remember seeing him captain his first ODI, looked like a clueless nervous wreck. Captaining your team in mickey mouse galli tournaments which no one watches and captaining your country are two different ballgames. Pujara has captained India-A in WI, also in Irani Trophy and Challenger and you have a glimpse of him there. I doubt Smith had captained SA-A in that many games. b) The way Pujara has not proved himself overseas, Smith did not prove himself in the subcontinent. Not much difference there, unless you imply that scoring big in the subcontinent has always been easy for travelling teams. And what blazing amount of runs did Smith score? This is his breakdown - 1 fifty in 4 innings against Aus, - a 200 against minnow Bangladesh in 2 innings, - 1 fifty and a duck in 3 innings against SL, - 16, 13 and 151 against Pakistan. This is your Bradman reborn who scored an astonishing/blazing amount of runs. The only innings worth there is that 151, and even that was scored on a patta where Herschelle Gibbs scored 228 and even Toffee Kumar scored 135 and 67 in two innings. c) Did you say Smith had half a dozen series on the basis of these performances? :giggle: Why not make it for the next 5 years? And that man with a half a dozen series was dropped in the other format before the World Cup despite averaging 40. So, it's difficult for you to back up your theory of Smith captaining SA ever since he was born and his scoring an astonishing amount of runs. I think you really don't remember this period of Smith's. I have put up those stats and facts in front of you. Pujara, in comparison, is at a far better situation. He's at least scored against a couple of good opponents. Has also done some real captaincy at a decent level. :giggle:

[Sean Bradley]

how did i miss this thread :giggle: ?? I have been crying out loud ever since we lost that 4th test against australia that dhoni must go from test cricket, atleast as a captain. People here say that we dont have an alernative, yes we dont, but can we continue with the tried and tested failure anymore? A score line of 1-10 over the period of 16 months is a testimony to dhonis failures as a test captain.

[Spiderguy252]

how did i miss this thread :giggle: ?? I have been crying out loud ever since we lost that 4th test against australia that dhoni must go from test cricket' date= atleast as a captain. People here say that we dont have an alernative, yes we dont, but can we continue with the tried and tested failure anymore? A score line of 1-10 over the period of 16 months is a testimony to dhonis failures as a test captain.

I hate the Dhonut in test cricket, but that fourth test at Adelaide versus Australia saw Sehwag captaining the side, with Dhoni banned for a slow over rate at the previous affair at the WACA.

[Marut]

I hate the Dhonut in test cricket' date=' but that fourth test at Adelaide versus Australia saw Sehwag captaining the side, with Dhoni banned for a slow over rate at the previous affair at the WACA.[/quote'] And that fourth test loss is used by ardent Dhoni fans to prove that we would have lost all these matches regardless of the captain! The problem is that Dhoni has created a long streak of losing against top teams that a new person cannot come in and straightaway change the way things are. Just like a new government needs some time to clear up the mess created by an earlier government. For any new captain we are going to have, we need to give him a run of at least 3 test series to change the tide completely. India may continue to loose matches and series for a while, but why should they be continued to be lost under Dhoni and not a new captain, who is sure to take test matches more seriously and try out some thing different? The English players are getting hammered in the ODIs because are not playing for their pride and the loss does not mean much to them. India is getting hammered in test matches for the same reasons - we need a captain who takes pride in winning test matches and hates losing - Dhoni does not care these losses and under him, nor do the players nor the board.

[Spiderguy252]

And that fourth test loss is used by ardent Dhoni fans to prove that we would have lost all these matches regardless of the captain!

Yep, I have no idea what the mentality was going into that final innings especially - you can make out by the rash way Sehwag played that the team were finished. The only guys who did well were those who had nothing to lose (Kohli, Saha, etc.)

[King Tendulkar]

Sehwag is an alternative and so is Gambhir but it's hilarious to claim that Dhoni has pedigree as a test captain.

I want dhoni removed as skipper. But sehwag!!! You kidding me. Would rather retain dhoni. Sehwag is 34 , fat, eyes have gone, reflexes gone etc etc He should not even be in test team now. A team led by sehwag would stroll on to the pitch, practice less then we do now and thinks its all a big laugh. We need someone with fire and passion.

[King Tendulkar]

Anyhow dhoni is there till sep 2014 at least. As fat president who is his god father is there till then

[Spiderguy252]

Anyhow dhoni is there till sep 2014 at least. As fat president who is his god father is there till then

And he'll change the law to ensure that it is a permanent position.

[Magneto]

how did i miss this thread :giggle: ?? I have been crying out loud ever since we lost that 4th test against australia that dhoni must go from test cricket' date=' atleast as a captain. People here say that we dont have an alernative, yes we dont, but can we continue with the tried and tested failure anymore? A score line of 1-10 over the period of 16 months is a testimony to dhonis failures as a test captain.[/quote'] Alternatives can't always be found readymade, alternatives have to be created.

[Muloghonto]

a) Do list the 50 matches Smith had captained his team for. I would like to see his performance there. Haha, actually don't bother because he didn't captain South Africa in anything significant. Was not the U-19 captain at the World Cup, neither was he the captain for the South Africa U-19 to Pakistan, where they played a few Youth Tests and ODIs. Tsolekile the keeper, was the captain. That's why when he took up captaincy, he looked just okay in his first 2 years and not god's gift to cricket captaincy that you're making him out to be. I remember seeing him captain his first ODI, looked like a clueless nervous wreck. Captaining your team in mickey mouse galli tournaments which no one watches and captaining your country are two different ballgames. Pujara has captained India-A in WI, also in Irani Trophy and Challenger and you have a glimpse of him there. I doubt Smith had captained SA-A in that many games.

The point is, Smith came with a lot of captaincy experience, nobody in the Indian team currently can say the same.

b) The way Pujara has not proved himself overseas, Smith did not prove himself in the subcontinent. Not much difference there, unless you imply that scoring big in the subcontinent has always been easy for travelling teams. And what blazing amount of runs did Smith score? This is his breakdown - 1 fifty in 4 innings against Aus, - a 200 against minnow Bangladesh in 2 innings, - 1 fifty and a duck in 3 innings against SL, - 16, 13 and 151 against Pakistan. This is your Bradman reborn who scored an astonishing/blazing amount of runs. The only innings worth there is that 151, and even that was scored on a patta where Herschelle Gibbs scored 228 and even Toffee Kumar scored 135 and 67 in two innings.

Are you kidding me ? the test of an opening batsman is to open in the subcontinent ? I am sorry, that is nonsense. If an opening bat averages 50+ in Saffie conditions right off the debut, he is gonna be given a very extended run that virtually garantees his spot in the team for the next couple of years. None of our batsmen have the same amount of rope. Pujara in comparison, has not been tested in testing conditions for middle order bats, which includes performances in the subcontinent as well as away. Opening in the subcontinent is no big challenge and as such, Smith's record in the subcontinent is largely irrelevant.

[The Outsider]

Are you kidding me ? the test of an opening batsman is to open in the subcontinent ? I am sorry, that is nonsense. If an opening bat averages 50+ in Saffie conditions right off the debut, he is gonna be given a very extended run that virtually garantees his spot in the team for the next couple of years. None of our batsmen have the same amount of rope.

Oh Bhai, Smith got that 50+ average because of bashing minnows. His performance against top attacks was mediocre.

[Lord]

Alternatives can't always be found readymade' date= alternatives have to be created.

this

[Magneto]

The point is, Smith came with a lot of captaincy experience, nobody in the Indian team currently can say the same. Are you kidding me ? the test of an opening batsman is to open in the subcontinent ? I am sorry, that is nonsense. If an opening bat averages 50+ in Saffie conditions right off the debut, he is gonna be given a very extended run that virtually garantees his spot in the team for the next couple of years. None of our batsmen have the same amount of rope. Pujara in comparison, has not been tested in testing conditions for middle order bats, which includes performances in the subcontinent as well as away. Opening in the subcontinent is no big challenge and as such, Smith's record in the subcontinent is largely irrelevant.

a) Why don't you show and provide some evidence of his captaincy. As I have shown, he never captained SA in U-19 cricket. So where did he captain a team? In his backyard? b) How convenient! It is just not about opening, for that matter Smith played in No.3 in his first Test. His average has been boosted by that 200 against Bangladesh. Otherwise he just got 3 50+ scores in 10 innings, yes just 3 - and in those 3 innings he was outscored by 3-4 people in the match. When he scored his first 50, even Andrew Hall outscored him and Shane Warne got a 63 in the same game. He did not bat in any testing conditions, rather only scored runs when he batted on pattas. Pujara has batted and won games for India in much more testing conditions. And when Smith first travelled to the subcontinent he could not even cross 20 against Bangladesh in Bangladesh. How a cricketer plays in low and slow wickets in different conditions that breaks down after 3 days is quite important. You are going on and on about his average and his captaincy experience (which is quite minimal) without even bothering to state what great innings did he play.

[Muloghonto]

a) Why don't you show and provide some evidence of his captaincy. As I have shown, he never captained SA in U-19 cricket. So where did he captain a team? In his backyard? b) How convenient! It is just not about opening, for that matter Smith played in No.3 in his first Test. His average has been boosted by that 200 against Bangladesh. Otherwise he just got 3 50+ scores in 10 innings, yes just 3 - and in those 3 innings he was outscored by 3-4 people in the match. When he scored his first 50, even Andrew Hall outscored him and Shane Warne got a 63 in the same game. He did not bat in any testing conditions, rather only scored runs when he batted on pattas. Pujara has batted and won games for India in much more testing conditions. And when Smith first travelled to the subcontinent he could not even cross 20 against Bangladesh in Bangladesh. How a cricketer plays in low and slow wickets in different conditions that breaks down after 3 days is quite important. You are going on and on about his average and his captaincy experience (which is quite minimal) without even bothering to state what great innings did he play.

yeah, Saffie pitches are pattas. :haha::haha: PS: Which Indian opener averages 50+ in tests in RSA ? I am sorry but even with inferior opposition, RSA pitches are a far truer test of opening test batsmanship than Indian pattas are for 1-3 positions. You simply cannot accept the fact that batting in the subcontinent is significantly easier for the opening/#3 batsmen than overseas.

[The Outsider]

yeah, Saffie pitches are pattas. :haha::haha: PS: Which Indian opener averages 50+ in tests in RSA ? I am sorry but even with inferior opposition, RSA pitches are a far truer test of opening test batsmanship than Indian pattas are for 1-3 positions. You simply cannot accept the fact that batting in the subcontinent is significantly easier for the opening/#3 batsmen than overseas.

South Africa pitches can be pattas as well. If you are talking about a large enough sample size one can make the assumption that the average is a reasonable reflection of skills, but if you are talking about a sample of 8 test matches out of which 2 are against Bangladesh, it doesn't make sense to take the average at face value. Smith got owned by Australia and Sri Lanka in those matches. The only innings of note he played was against Pakistan. Just one test innings of note!

[Muloghonto]

South Africa pitches can be pattas as well. If you are talking about a large enough sample size one can make the assumption that the average is a reasonable reflection of skills' date= but if you are talking about a sample of 8 test matches out of which 2 are against Bangladesh, it doesn't make sense to take the average at face value. Smith got owned by Australia and Sri Lanka in those matches. The only innings of note he played was against Pakistan. Just one test innings of note!

Which Saffie/Aussie opening bat hasn't been owned in Saffie conditions ? Take away Barry Richards and his 10-odd tests and Kirstien is the best Test opener Saffies have ever had prior to Smith. And he averaged just over 40 in the test series at home, 32 away in the early 2000s. Context is important- when your best ever opener averages 44 in his career and less than 40 against McGillespieWarne at his peak, a newbie 21 year old getting a few 50s against the same lineup while opening is definitely well above and beyond what you'd expect a debutant opener to get and is definitely worth a long term investment in. And i am still convinced that Saffie pitches are far harder for openers/#3 to bat on than Indian pitches. Indian pitches are a challenge after the new ball is bowled, ie, when spinners come on. Not from the word 'go' like Saffie pitches. As such, i am quite comfortable saying that Graeme Smith had earned himself far longer rope after 8-10 matches than Pujara has right now.

[The Outsider]

Context is important- when your best ever opener averages 44 in his career and less than 40 against McGillespieWarne at his peak, a newbie 21 year old getting a few 50s against the same lineup while opening is definitely well above and beyond what you'd expect a debutant opener to get and is definitely worth a long term investment in.

Oh bhai, which few 50s are you talking about. He got one 50+ score against Australia - the remaining were 3, 1, and 42. His overall average against Australia is still below 40.

And i am still convinced that Saffie pitches are far harder for openers/#3 to bat on than Indian pitches. Indian pitches are a challenge after the new ball is bowled, ie, when spinners come on. Not from the word 'go' like Saffie pitches.

You can't say that over a sample size of a handful of tests. The Bombay pitch on which Pujara got his hundred or the Bangalore pitch on which Pujara scored 70 odd in the last innings were at least as difficult to bat on as the pitches in Smith's sample.

As such, i am quite comfortable saying that Graeme Smith had earned himself far longer rope after 8-10 matches than Pujara has right now.

There is no replacement for Pujara for miles. With Tendulkar about to exit, Gambhir and Sehwag faltering and the back up consisting of Yuvraj, Raina, and Jadeja do you seriously think Pujara's place is in jeopardy for any time in the future?

[Muloghonto]

Oh bhai, which few 50s are you talking about. He got one 50+ score against Australia - the remaining were 3, 1, and 42. His overall average against Australia is still below 40.

Those are akin to scores the best ever Saffie opener at his peak was getting against the Aussies, so in that context, against an alltime great attack, Smith did quite credibly as an opener.

You can't say that over a sample size of a handful of tests. The Bombay pitch on which Pujara got his hundred or the Bangalore pitch on which Pujara scored 70 odd in the last innings were at least as difficult to bat on as the pitches in Smith's sample.

Yes i can, as comparing Smith to Pujara are comparing apples to oranges. The opening batsman's primary job is to see off the new ball bowlers and be a rock in fast, swingnig & bouncy conditions, since Openers are supposed to be the most proficient at handling those kind of bowling. As such, for an opener, his record in subcontinental pattas, which break up in the last 2 days, is largely irrelevant. If an opener scores a string of 50s in the subcontinent, i consider that to be a success. For middle order bats, proficiency against pace and spin are equally important, as their job is not to just see off the new ball but to put up runs. For that reason alone, i will say that Pujara is still, untested in his role for the overseas conditions, which would be an integral part of his job description. Smith does not have to do well in the subcontinent to be considered a great opener and really, all he has to do is not get completely & horribly owned in the subcontinent ala Ponting. So yes, i do consider Smith, with his 8-10 test pedigree to've been more secure in his long term position in the team than Pujara is currently. I dont think Saffies would drop an opener for failing in the subcontinent, but a middle order subcontinental bat failing overseas is as good a reason as any for the chop.

There is no replacement for Pujara for miles. With Tendulkar about to exit, Gambhir and Sehwag faltering and the back up consisting of Yuvraj, Raina, and Jadeja do you seriously think Pujara's place is in jeopardy for any time in the future?

True,but i feel Pujara has less rope than Smith had at this stage for the abovementioned reason. For a Saffie opener, averaging 40 in England, RSA, Aus or thereabouts, is equivalent to 'locking in' the position, regardless of what they do in the subcontinent. For an Indian middle order bat ( or rather, middle order bats in general), your overseas performance/subcontinental performances both are critical. As such, we may feel that Pujara is unreplacable now, but i don't see his position as that secure- for example, if Pujara puts up numbers like 250 runs at 30 ave against AUS at home and then something like 100 runs @ 15 in RSA, he would most likely be getting the chop too. So in that sense, i think Pujara has less rope- he still is two disastrous series away from being scrapped, while Smith they'd have persisted with for longer given how he started in context to the situation of opening in the overseas countries and what openers are expected to do.