Random discussion featuring Bongs, marathas and much much more

[Muloghonto]

Guptas were Merchants / Kshatriyas (not sure)..Dasgupta and Senguptas are purohits.So again' date='No evidence whatsoever. [/quote'] So people's professions dont change via millenias, due to social upheavals and mobility ? So now, name similarity is 'no evidence' says you but accepted by ALL historians as categoric evidence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gupta There you go. Plenty of bengali guptas around as well. Yes. Once you hindivaadi Scythio-Rajput culturally annihilated Bihar, we got a lot weakened and didnt hold up. That is 960s AD. Prior to that, we were the end-all, be all of empire building in India. Top 3 empires in Indian history are our ancestors, every single empire established prior to Christ, in India, were bong ancestors (including the Satavahanas, who were offshoots of the Mauryas, our ancestors) so again, what more do you want ?

[Yoda-esque]

So people's professions dont change via millenias, due to social upheavals and mobility ? So now, name similarity is 'no evidence' says you but accepted by ALL historians as categoric evidence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gupta There you go. Plenty of bengali guptas around as well. Yes. Once you hindivaadi Scythio-Rajput culturally annihilated Bihar, we got a lot weakened and didnt hold up. That is 960s AD. Prior to that, we were the end-all, be all of empire building in India. Top 3 empires in Indian history are our ancestors, every single empire established prior to Christ, in India, were bong ancestors (including the Satavahanas, who were offshoots of the Mauryas, our ancestors) so again, what more do you want ?

No.Your Guptas are different.. From Wiki: The Guptas from the West Bengal belong to the Vaid-Brahmin (physician) community, and are related to the Sengupta and Dasgupta communities of Bengal who are vaid-Brahmins. So stop trying to take credit for the martial race of Guptas that ruled over you. And that link you sent me has Bongs as only Sen Guptas and Das Guptas.. I promised myself not to respond but tera julaab chalta hi jaa rahaa hai yaar

[Muloghonto]

No.Your Guptas are different.. From Wiki: The Guptas from the West Bengal belong to the Vaid-Brahmin (physician) community, and are related to the Sengupta and Dasgupta communities of Bengal who are vaid-Brahmins.

That does not prove that they are different from the Guptas of the Gupta Empire. Descendancy and lineage are proved via documentation and nomenclature, not profession. A 'jhunjhunwala or daruwalla' doesnt become unrelated to his ancestors when he stops selling jhunjhuns and daaru. So what has profession gotto do with relation when we are looking at almost 2000 years in timescale ? I guess by your reasoning, Ankit Rajpoot is a fake rajput, since he has nothing to do with the 'profession' of the Rajputs- being rajas and warriors. By that logic, there isn't a single Rajput left and all you Rajputs are posers.

So stop trying to take credit for the martial race of Guptas that ruled over you. And that link you sent me has Bongs as only Sen Guptas and Das Guptas.. I promised myself not to respond but tera julaab chalta hi jaa rahaa hai yaar

Scroll further down, and find the 'in literature' column. Pucca pure bengali guptas. I named some. PS: Do some homework. This whole 'guptas are hindivaadis' is nothing more than hindi-stani ignorance, confusing correlation (that we Bongs were so successful, one of our clans moved mostly out of Bongodesh and into rest of India, as have many scottish clans in the new world for eg) with causation. Your so-called Gupta empress, Pravabhati Gupta, openly claims in her copperplate inscription that she is from the Dharini Gotra, which is the Gotra of the Shunga bong brahmin emperors. There is also copperplate inscription that call the Guptas to've been from Varendri- which is another name for Bengal.

[Yoda-esque]

That does not prove that they are different from the Guptas of the Gupta Empire. Descendancy and lineage are proved via documentation and nomenclature, not profession. A 'jhunjhunwala or daruwalla' doesnt become unrelated to his ancestors when he stops selling jhunjhuns and daaru. So what has profession gotto do with relation when we are looking at almost 2000 years in timescale ? I guess by your reasoning, Ankit Rajpoot is a fake rajput, since he has nothing to do with the 'profession' of the Rajputs- being rajas and warriors. By that logic, there isn't a single Rajput left and all you Rajputs are posers. Scroll further down, and find the 'in literature' column. Pucca pure bengali guptas. I named some. PS: Do some homework. This whole 'guptas are hindivaadis' is nothing more than hindi-stani ignorance, confusing correlation (that we Bongs were so successful, one of our clans moved mostly out of Bongodesh and into rest of India, as have many scottish clans in the new world for eg) with causation. Your so-called Gupta empress, Pravabhati Gupta, openly claims in her copperplate inscription that she is from the Dharini Gotra, which is the Gotra of the Shunga bong brahmin emperors. There is also copperplate inscription that call the Guptas to've been from Varendri- which is another name for Bengal.

Try as much as you may with all your circumlocutory logic, you have still not been able to prove how modern day Bengalis are related to the great Maurya or Gupta dynasties. There is no Kshatriya caste amongst the bengalis, no martial traditions, no evidence whatsoever except an ancient language that was imposed on you by your rulers.All you have to show for your tall claims are a few Bengalis with names like Sengupta and Dasgupta but they are Purohits and not Warriors. The Caste system only allows you to downgrade not upgrade. By that logic,Muslims that speak Urdu would claim to be descendants of Bahadur Shah and Aurangzeb.

[Muloghonto]

Try as much as you may with all your circumlocutory logic' date=' you have still not been able to prove how modern day Bengalis are related to the great Maurya or Gupta dynasties. [/quote'] Every historian accepts my reasoning: we Bongs inhabit the same land, speak a direct descendant language, have direct cultural evolution (the non-arya culture that Magadh represents) from the Magadhis. As i said, this is as solid a proof as it comes, since by the same criteria, we prove that Romans were ancestors to Italians, Rajputs ancestors to Rajasthanis, etc. I also gave you evidence that shows the Guptas to be from bengal- the epigraphy of Maharani Pravavati Gupta and the inscription in Nepal puts the gotra and the location of the Gupta family firmly in Bengal (Varendri). If this is not 'proof' what is ? What more proof do you want ? You keep skirting the issue on what proof would suffice. All you keep saying is 'nope, its not proof', when i present arguments that are standard to every historian. There is no caste to begin with with us Bongs. Remember, even your 2nd century CE puraanas call us mlech. Mlech didnt have castes, remember ? So you are trying to use a methodology that does not apply for us in the first place. Also, whether we got imposed upon by the Magadhis or not, is lost to history. What is fact, is by the time of Buddha, we were already one people and indistinguishable to your brahmanic scholars. You know nothing, as usual. The Sens were Brahmins who adopted kshatriya caste and called themselves Brahmo-Kshatriyas. Since the Sens were Kannadigas, its not us 'mlech corruption of norms' but an arya people doing it. We also have the Sungas, referred to as brahmins who became Kshatriyas. As i said, learn your history before yapping. If they are from the same region as Bahdur Shah's ancestral home, spoke the same language, had direct cultural links, then yes, your assessment would be correct. Btw, this is the exact same reasoning used to locate the Khaljis - members of the Khalaj tribes living in Southern Afghanistan, who share nomenclature, descend from the same language tree (chagatai) and have lived in the region prior to the Khilji expansion. Yet, the modern day Khalaj are farmers and goat herders, not warriors and kings. Just goes on to show, with yet more examples, how your 'must have the same profession' is nothing more than bunk.

[Yoda-esque]

Every historian accepts my reasoning: we Bongs inhabit the same land, speak a direct descendant language, have direct cultural evolution (the non-arya culture that Magadh represents) from the Magadhis. As i said, this is as solid a proof as it comes, since by the same criteria, we prove that Romans were ancestors to Italians, Rajputs ancestors to Rajasthanis, etc. I also gave you evidence that shows the Guptas to be from bengal- the epigraphy of Maharani Pravavati Gupta and the inscription in Nepal puts the gotra and the location of the Gupta family firmly in Bengal (Varendri). If this is not 'proof' what is ? What more proof do you want ? You keep skirting the issue on what proof would suffice. All you keep saying is 'nope, its not proof', when i present arguments that are standard to every historian. There is no caste to begin with with us Bongs. Remember, even your 2nd century CE puraanas call us mlech. Mlech didnt have castes, remember ? So you are trying to use a methodology that does not apply for us in the first place. Also, whether we got imposed upon by the Magadhis or not, is lost to history. What is fact, is by the time of Buddha, we were already one people and indistinguishable to your brahmanic scholars. You know nothing, as usual. The Sens were Brahmins who adopted kshatriya caste and called themselves Brahmo-Kshatriyas. Since the Sens were Kannadigas, its not us 'mlech corruption of norms' but an arya people doing it. We also have the Sungas, referred to as brahmins who became Kshatriyas. As i said, learn your history before yapping. If they are from the same region as Bahdur Shah's ancestral home, spoke the same language, had direct cultural links, then yes, your assessment would be correct. Btw, this is the exact same reasoning used to locate the Khaljis - members of the Khalaj tribes living in Southern Afghanistan, who share nomenclature, descend from the same language tree (chagatai) and have lived in the region prior to the Khilji expansion. Yet, the modern day Khalaj are farmers and goat herders, not warriors and kings. Just goes on to show, with yet more examples, how your 'must have the same profession' is nothing more than bunk.

It is pretty simple really.Show me which historian said that Bengalis are descendants of the warrior clan of the Gupta and Maurya empires.I mean surely for such a tall claim theres got to be some article right? You talk too much but have very little to present.Learn to be objective. Magadha was ancient Bihar and not Bengal.Bengal was conquered by the earlier empires and their language was imposed upon them.The culture went to Bengal and not the other way around. Sungas Fungas - vo tou sab theek hai, but they are not related to Guptas.Also , currently there is no Kshatriya caste amongst Bengalis.

[Prakat]

@SachinLara The word for pillow in Bengali (Balish) is the same as in Farsi. And this word or anything resembling it, is found nowhere else along the corridor all the way from Iran to Bengal. Did it travel via trade routes (Kabuliwallah etc.) or did it arrive via military lines?

[CSK Fan]

As i said, after all the hard work we Bongs have put in, we deserve a snooze or two. Come back to me when the rest of India can even begin scratching the surface of the achievement of the Bongs for the last 200 years, let alone for the last 2500. PS: It is not us, but it is a so-called 'retarded commie ideology state' that leads India by a lightyear in virtually every demographic: Foreign direct remittals, literacy rate, per capita income and various other HDI aspects. Can you duffers guess which state it is ? Goes to show you- even when we do bollox it up, the best achievers follow our template. Always have, always will be!.

But doesn't that mean you and your generation have contributed zilch to anything and the chest thumping you are doing is solely based on the achievement of your ancestors? What went wrong Bengal? Once you were the bastion of forward thinking, intellectualism and had visionaries like Bose. Today's generation is among the laziest people in the world. Just people resting on past laurels, lots of big headed talk but absolutely no inclination for hard work. Most youth are content with government jobs where you don't have to lift a finger. You are 30 years behind any other state in terms of outlook towards industrialization. The culture of going late to office, coming early, wasting hours in adda. That's what youth is today. I am sorry, claiming the past achievements as your own is like every Muslim claiming he personally built the Taj mahal. Stop living in the past, your ancestors bust their @@ss for Bengal. What are you doing?

[Muloghonto]

It is pretty simple really.Show me which historian said that Bengalis are descendants of the warrior clan of the Gupta and Maurya empires.I mean surely for such a tall claim theres got to be some article right?

As i suspected, you have no clue and are resorting to a strawman argument. I never said that Bengalis are descendants of the Gupta and Maurya clans. Those guys wern't Genghis khan, mass raping and killing folks to spread their seed around. Truth is, there is probably hardly anyone today who are related to these folks. What I *DID* say, is that the mauryas, Guptas, Shungas, Kanvas, etc. were Magadhis. And Magadhis are ancestors to the Bongs. This view, is supported by almost all historians, since Magadh & Vangadesha were the same cultural & political entity from before 500s BCE to 900s CE. If you need proof for these, i have provided you the proof. RC Majumder proves the Guptas to be of Bengali origin, since the Mrigasthapana Vihara in nepal has inscriptions of it describing it to've been built by the Guptas, originating from Varendri, which is from Bengal.

You talk too much but have very little to present.Learn to be objective. Magadha was ancient Bihar and not Bengal.Bengal was conquered by the earlier empires and their language was imposed upon them.The culture went to Bengal and not the other way around.

False. Magadha is the region of Jharkhand. Bihar was *NOT* Magadha proper, it was the land of the Vajjis and Videha. The region was not conquered by the Magadhis till the end days of Ajatshatru's reign, commonly dated as 400s BCE. Magadh did *not* extend north of Ganges till this point in history. However, by the time of Bimbisara, Ajatshatru's father, it is already mentioned that he inherited his kingdom, which included the Radha region (which is Purulia & west Bengal) and there is no distinguishing the Magadhis and the Vangadesha even in his timeframe. This is proven here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajatashatru As such, what we know for *SURE* is that Magadh and Vangal were the same nation, with no distinguishing between them whatsoever. From Ajatshatru's time all the way to the fall of the Palas, Magadh and Vangala have been the same nation for almost all of 1500 years. The fact that Bengali descends from Ardhamagadhi, which is the language of Magadh, our culture is a true reflection of Magadhi culture for most of history, is as categoric proof as it gets for our descent from the Magadhis. Whether the magadhis conquered Bengal at some prior date or settled & colonized it thus absorbing it that way, is unknown and irrelevant. What is relevant, is that we the Bong, are clear linguistic, cultural and historical descendant of the Magadh maharastra, which, for most of history, is everything east of UP and north of Orissa all the way to Asssam. Not you hindistanis, who are NOT the linguistic & cultural descendants of the Magadhi culture that is represented in the Shakta side of Hinduism, along with the genesis of anti-casteist, anti-brahmanical enlightenment that progressed India to the pinnacle of the world, clearly and categorically represented in the Bongs. What you hindistanis have to do with the Guptas, magadh and all that is represented by EASTERN INDIAN CULTURE, is beyond me. What you folks are descended from, are Arya tribes, who were vedics, got buddhified by our magadhi ancestors (hence the prevalence of Buddhism in western India when Magadh was at its pinnacle, from 400s BCE to 50 BCE or so). Then the Jats (Gatae tribesmen from central Asia), the Gujjars ( Goggars,aka Georgians, aka Gurgin Turks) showed up at the fall of the Gupta empire, in what is the mass migration of the Hepthalite central Asians into India. These central Asians (scythians basically) assimilated into the Magadhi fold, but re-invigorated by the fire-god, lead Hindu lives.(hence, the rise of the Agnivanshis during this period of Indic history. Prior to this period, there were ONLY two royal lineages- the Suryavanshis and the Chandravanshis) These Scythio-Indians are, over the next few hundred years, mixed with the original desis, form what are the Jats, Punjabis, Marwaris, Rajputs, etc. Ie, all you hindistanis. You guys are as much inheritors to the Magadhi legacy as Afghanistan is the inheritor of Hindu legacy- which is to say, topical & superficial.

Sungas Fungas - vo tou sab theek hai, but they are not related to Guptas.Also , currently there is no Kshatriya caste amongst Bengalis.

Err, yes the Shungas are ancestors to the Guptas. Maharani Gupta, as i noted earlier, refers to herself as a descendant of Vasumitra, a Sunga monarch, from Dharani gotra, which is a Bengali gotra.

[Yoda-esque]

The pre-Gupta period of Bengal is shrouded with obscurity. Before the conquest of Samudragupta Bengal was divided into two kingdoms: Pushkarana and Samatata. An inscription of Pushkaranadhipa (the ruler of Pushkarana) Chandravarman has been found in a cave in the Shushunia hills. Chandragupta II had defeated a confederacy of Vanga kings resulting in Bengal becoming part of the Gupta Empire. Any future rulers were only vassals of Guptas and not related to them. For the last time Guptas,Mauryas are not related to Bengalis..So please stop claiming footage for their achievements. Its like Rome conquering a province and that province saying they are of Roman ethnicity and that they conquered the world because they adapted to their language. And now Mr. Pseudo-Intellectual-Bong-Supremacist,This really is my last post on this subject. Have read enough crap that you've spouted complete with incorrect historical timelines and facts , not to mention your insensitivity to certain events .

[Muloghonto]

@SachinLara The word for pillow in Bengali (Balish) is the same as in Farsi. And this word or anything resembling it, is found nowhere else along the corridor all the way from Iran to Bengal. Did it travel via trade routes (Kabuliwallah etc.) or did it arrive via military lines?

Most likely via trade routes. Contrary to popular beleifs, Bengal had Iranic/Afghan influences much before the Muslims showed up in 1204 AD. Bengali is a descendant language of Ardhamagadhi- that makes us the descendants of Magadh culturally. But there are loanwords in Bengali and the high prevalence of Iranic loanwords are predating the islamic period, from the period of the Palas, Guptas and even further back, possibly the Kushan period. Here you go, read about the Kamboja Palas:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamboja_Palas Basically, long story short, Palas (and even the Guptas before them) imported horses from the Kamboj tribesmen of Afghan-Chitral regions and over time, these guys settled in bengal as well and were allowed to form their own regiments in the Pala armies. These Kambojas, who were Iranic tribesmen, introduced loanwords into Bengali of Iranic origin. The process only accelerated further in the subsequent years, but it is interesting to note that Bengali has much less influence from Turkic tree than Hindi does, which shows us that from the Mughal period onwards, Bengal was far less influenced culturally by the muslims than western India.

[Muloghonto]

The pre-Gupta period of Bengal is shrouded with obscurity.

There is a couple of centuries of gap in information. Prior to the Guptas, from the Sungas all te way back to the Haranyakas, information of Bengal and magadh outstrips anything west of Kashi to into insignificance.

Before the conquest of Samudragupta Bengal was divided into two kingdoms: Pushkarana and Samatata. An inscription of Pushkaranadhipa (the ruler of Pushkarana) Chandravarman has been found in a cave in the Shushunia hills. Chandragupta II had defeated a confederacy of Vanga kings resulting in Bengal becoming part of the Gupta Empire.

Err no, Bengal has had far more regions than just Pushkarna and Samatata. Btw, Pushkarna is not even a proper historic region of Bengal. Bengal regions are: Radha/Rahr (which is Bengal south of main ganges arm & east of Mahananda, which in ancient times flowed closer to the Hoogly, ie, western & southern parts of West Bengal), Gauda/Gour, which is the Murshidabad-Rajshahi region, Anga, which is also the same region, Samatata & Vangala, which is the deltaic south, Harikela, which is somewhere east of the main arm of the Ganges (either Chittagong region or Sylhet) and Pundravardhana, which is between Gour and Pragjyotisha (Assam). At the time of Samudragupta, Radha, Pundravardhana and Gour were already part of Bengal. As i noted earlier, the Mrigasthapana Stupa mentions the Guptas as from Varendri/Varendra, which is a district of Pundravardhana Bhukti, approximately where Rajshahi is today. So i don't see the problem- he conquered a different part of Bengal. That does not make him any less Bengali, does it ? Or am i all of a sudden not Bengali, if i become King of India and conquer Bangladesh ?!

ny future rulers were only vassals of Guptas and not related to them. For the last time Guptas,Mauryas are not related to Bengalis..So please stop claiming footage for their achievements.

They are Guptas, a name originating from Magadha-Bengal region, particularly from the region of Rajshahi, which is Varendra district of Pundravardhana division. They are clearly from the people who were direct ancestors to the Bengali people.

Its like Rome conquering a province and that province saying they are of Roman ethnicity and that they conquered the world because they adapted to their language.

Given the fact that we have written inscription that states Guptas came from Varendri district of Pundravardhana, they are very much from the people who were ancestors to bengalis. As for Bong connection to the Magadhis, as i already noted, region such as Radha were already part of Magadh and indistinguishable from it as early as 500s BCE, the region that is practically all of West Bengal and Bangladesh east of old brahmaputra ( Sylhet region) is a fully integrated part of Magadh from no later than 400s BCE. So you see, we Bongs, due to the earliest mention of Magadh = inclusive of Radha, makes us Magadhi all along. Given that our language itself is a descendant of Magadhi, our case is the default position of world historians.

[Prakat]

Most likely via trade routes. Contrary to popular beleifs, Bengal had Iranic/Afghan influences much before the Muslims showed up in 1204 AD. Bengali is a descendant language of Ardhamagadhi- that makes us the descendants of Magadh culturally. But there are loanwords in Bengali and the high prevalence of Iranic loanwords are predating the islamic period, from the period of the Palas, Guptas and even further back, possibly the Kushan period. Here you go, read about the Kamboja Palas:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamboja_Palas Basically, long story short, Palas (and even the Guptas before them) imported horses from the Kamboj tribesmen of Afghan-Chitral regions and over time, these guys settled in bengal as well and were allowed to form their own regiments in the Pala armies. These Kambojas, who were Iranic tribesmen, introduced loanwords into Bengali of Iranic origin. The process only accelerated further in the subsequent years, but it is interesting to note that Bengali has much less influence from Turkic tree than Hindi does, which shows us that from the Mughal period onwards, Bengal was far less influenced culturally by the muslims than western India.

Thank you for the detailed reply. I am also enjoying your discussion with Yodaesque.

[Mariyam]

Most likely via trade routes. Contrary to popular beleifs, Bengal had Iranic/Afghan influences much before the Muslims showed up in 1204 AD. Bengali is a descendant language of Ardhamagadhi- that makes us the descendants of Magadh culturally. But there are loanwords in Bengali and the high prevalence of Iranic loanwords are predating the islamic period, from the period of the Palas, Guptas and even further back, possibly the Kushan period. Here you go, read about the Kamboja Palas:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamboja_Palas Basically, long story short, Palas (and even the Guptas before them) imported horses from the Kamboj tribesmen of Afghan-Chitral regions and over time, these guys settled in bengal as well and were allowed to form their own regiments in the Pala armies. These Kambojas, who were Iranic tribesmen, introduced loanwords into Bengali of Iranic origin. The process only accelerated further in the subsequent years, but it is interesting to note that Bengali has much less influence from Turkic tree than Hindi does, which shows us that from the Mughal period onwards, Bengal was far less influenced culturally by the muslims than western India.

Just playing the devil's advocate here. Why would Bengalis/Palas or whatever they were called back then use a loan word for 'pillow' which I'm assuming was a common household feature in India from eons. IIRC, wasn't a pillow of some kind mentioned in the Mahabharata too, where Arjun hides his weapons before he goes incognito for 10 odd years? There must have been a word for it. And the Kambojas, traversed the entire breadth of the North Indian plains before selling their horses to the Palas. Why is it that no other language or their offshoots have the same word for a pillow? And why wouldn't the people of Bengal, who would have been in closer contact with their immediate neighbours not use their word for 'pillow'. Generally speaking, loan words seep into a language, when there is no local equivalent for the word. Eg: It was the Portuguese who introduced potato to the Konkan coast of India and the word for potato in Marathi/Konkani is the Portuguese word for potato. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

[The Outsider]

^ Bongs have traditionally had very strong necks and no need for pillows.

[Yoda-esque]

The only Ashoka that this guy is related to is That probably explains why he still owns the Kolkata Knight Riders

[Magneto]

Didn't read anything - but looks like an awesome thread.

[Dumbbells]

Didn't the british empire ignored Bengalis in recruiting for Indian army? They are no martial race for sure.

[CSK Fan]

Any time someone starts extolling the virtues of time past to such an extent, you can rest assured that's it's a sign of a decaying present. We can learn a lot from the past but only people who have nothing to show in their present glamorize their past to this extent.

[nikred]

Any time someone starts extolling the virtues of time past to such an extent' date=' you can rest assured that's it's a sign of a decaying present. We can learn a lot from the past but only people who have nothing to show in their present glamorize their past to this extent.[/quote'] :blink: brb...editing the southie ad thread.