BeautifulGame Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 how an upper caste but poor from rural background is supposed to comepte with city background? And what system do u have for separating poor from rich in India?
adi B Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 I had a friend in Engg, he was a NT 3 by caste and frankly all he had to do was pass and he got the admission... for the rest our PCM cut off was 298/300.... This guy used to drive to the college and holiday overseas with family which was unheard off for the rest, his mum / dad both had followed same route and landed posh govt jobs.... whenever i think of caste based reservations I think of him, i am sure there were lesser priviledged NT's who could have used this true,i hate such instances not because he got a preferential treatment but because the less privileged could not exercise his quota
ganeshran Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 I repeat' date=' I am not a landowner exploiting you. Why do you & your kids deserve major privileges free of cost by virtue of your last name over me or my future generations ? Why can't you compete like the rest of us without demanding a free meal ?[/quote'] Your argument makes no sense and ignores class privilege. The reason you, me or most of us on this board are in a position to get a good education and earn a decent living (far better than hundreds of millions in the country) is because of our ancestors being given the opportunity to get an education and who could subsequently provide a better life to our generation. Dalits did not have this luxury. Their ancestors were forced to do menial jobs, kept out of the village, were not given an education or allowed to improve their lives. If things are this bad today, imagine the social ostracization that Dalits had to go through in the 40s and 50s or till late 80s for that matter. It is hypocritical to talk of equal opportunity and belittle Dalits when their ancestors were not been given a semblance of equal opportunity for the last hundreds of years. They didnt have the benefit of having graduate or even high school educated parents who could provide them a well rounded childhood with even the basic comforts that we took for granted. Their communities didnt have the same support structures for helping out the disadvantaged. If anything it is the upper castes who have mooched from the labors of dalits over generations.
KFC_Zinger Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 And what system do u have for separating poor from rich in India? How is Non Creamy layer certificate for OBC's given.... am sure its a farce but what rules do they follow, any idea ?
KFC_Zinger Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 Your argument makes no sense and ignores class privilege. The reason you, me or most of us on this board are in a position to get a good education and earn a decent living (far better than hundreds of millions in the country) is because of our ancestors being given the opportunity to get an education and who could subsequently provide a better life to our generation. Dalits did not have this luxury. Their ancestors were forced to do menial jobs, kept out of the village, were not given an education or allowed to improve their lives. If things are this bad today, imagine the social ostracization that Dalits had to go through in the 40s and 50s or till late 80s for that matter. It is hypocritical to talk of equal opportunity and belittle Dalits when their ancestors were not been given a semblance of equal opportunity for the last hundreds of years. They didnt have the benefit of having graduate or even high school educated parents who could provide them a well rounded childhood with even the basic comforts that we took for granted. Their communities didnt have the same support structures for helping out the disadvantaged. If anything it is the upper castes who have mooched from the labors of dalits over generations. so do u have any time frame in mind or do u also want to continue this for hundreds of years...
Raghav_12 Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 And what system do u have for separating poor from rich in India? 1. Land Records 2. Educational Qualifications of parents 3. Salary in case of govt. employee 4. Status of house - Mud house or Pakka house. There are enough ways to separate things if someone has will power and don't want to play votebank
hhunaeh Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 I don't understand this talk of discrimination being in the past and equal footing in the present day when there is ample evidence of present day discrimination, like the article in the OP. If such discriminatory behavior is added up over 10 years of school life, where is this imaginary equal footing that the dalits are supposed to compete on?
ganeshran Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 so do u have any time frame in mind or do u also want to continue this for hundreds of years... The discrimination happened over hundreds of years and till today continues to happen. There is nothing wrong with continuing reservation for at least another generation. That is why it is important to implement a reliable system of creamy layer exclusion. Not too hard with PAN numbers being tracked for all major currency transactions.
adi B Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 Your argument makes no sense and ignores class privilege. The reason you, me or most of us on this board are in a position to get a good education and earn a decent living (far better than hundreds of millions in the country) is because of our ancestors being given the opportunity to get an education and who could subsequently provide a better life to our generation. Dalits did not have this luxury. Their ancestors were forced to do menial jobs, kept out of the village, were not given an education or allowed to improve their lives. If things are this bad today, imagine the social ostracization that Dalits had to go through in the 40s and 50s or till late 80s for that matter. It is hypocritical to talk of equal opportunity and belittle Dalits when their ancestors were not been given a semblance of equal opportunity for the last hundreds of years. They didnt have the benefit of having graduate or even high school educated parents who could provide them a well rounded childhood with even the basic comforts that we took for granted. Their communities didnt have the same support structures for helping out the disadvantaged. If anything it is the upper castes who have mooched from the labors of dalits over generations. an obvious post but true to an extent..kindly tell for how long should this quota based merit system continue? also why should the current and future generations of the "upper castes " should compromise with it when the already implemented system is utterly misused and flawed?
Raghav_12 Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 Why should there not be reservation in national cricket team? What sense of empowerment it would give if 5-6 of total 11 players in team are from so-called low castes? When you are at it, why go half way. Go full all oiut.
ganeshran Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 an obvious post but true to an extent..kindly tell for how long should this quota based merit system continue? also why should the current and future generations of the "upper castes " should compromise with it when the already implemented system is utterly misused and flawed? Already answered. See my above post.
ganeshran Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 I don't understand this talk of discrimination being in the past and equal footing in the present day when there is ample evidence of present day discrimination' date=' like the article in the OP. If such discriminatory behavior is added up over 10 years of school life, where is this imaginary equal footing that the dalits are supposed to compete on?[/quote'] This notion of equality is peddled by people who have never stepped outside the city or from the comfort of their homes in villages who have been fed nonsense by their immediate family. You only have to step out of the city to see the amount of inequality that still persists in India. Scheduled castes till today are given tea in coconut shells in my village because the other caste people don't like to share the glasses. They still work as labour because no one sells land to them and they still live on the outskirts in separate SC colonies And it is not only the upper castes who are doing the discrimination here, even the OBCs and MBCs (Vanniyars for e.g.) are equally hell bent on making sure the Dalits don't get to live on an equal footing.
BeautifulGame Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 1. Land Records 2. Educational Qualifications of parents 3. Salary in case of govt. employee 4. Status of house - Mud house or Pakka house. Taken by whom? The same officers who demand money from birth certificate to death Certificate.How exactly will it be more reliable than (say for ex) the income certificates they issue? There are enough ways to separate things if someone has will power and don't want to play votebank K very realistic
Clarke Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 1.They need special previlages not becoz of there last name but becoz they dont have the means to compete in an equal footing. 2.Why dont u stop treating them like animals Third time: I did not discriminate against any dalit/SC/ST/SEBC etc. Its an internet forum expressing opinions where the hell did social justice stuff came from? It just shows ur ignorance that only oppressed people will believe in quotas and reservations.Most who have seen the discrimination and poverty issues first hand know the reality It is your ignorance to think the current system of affirmative action is effective in reality. Which really begs the question: who else would prefer such a system than someone benefitting from it at the expense of others ?
Clarke Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 Your argument makes no sense and ignores class privilege. The reason you, me or most of us on this board are in a position to get a good education and earn a decent living (far better than hundreds of millions in the country) is because of our ancestors being given the opportunity to get an education and who could subsequently provide a better life to our generation. Dalits did not have this luxury. Their ancestors were forced to do menial jobs, kept out of the village, were not given an education or allowed to improve their lives. If things are this bad today, imagine the social ostracization that Dalits had to go through in the 40s and 50s or till late 80s for that matter. It is hypocritical to talk of equal opportunity and belittle Dalits when their ancestors were not been given a semblance of equal opportunity for the last hundreds of years. They didnt have the benefit of having graduate or even high school educated parents who could provide them a well rounded childhood with even the basic comforts that we took for granted. Their communities didnt have the same support structures for helping out the disadvantaged. If anything it is the upper castes who have mooched from the labors of dalits over generations. You're not following the context of the discussion. Read my earlier post: I oppressed no one and demand that moochers who attended same schools, lived in similar conditions do not have extra benefits from the state by virtue of their last name. I am particularly targetting this guy who thinks reservations based on last name is the only means feasible and hence brought myself in the picture. You should be annoyed at him, he's the one encouraging such moronic public policy. How many of your fellow classmates that came off reservations were genuine dalits who struggled for education in their early years ? So many of them are actually the ones taking the benefits that should have been used for upliftment of the oppressed citizens. You never felt the outrage at the misuse of our state resources ?
Clarke Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 And what system do u have for separating poor from rich in India? If you're indeed concerned about public welfare and not individual gains from reservations, shouldn't you advocate for a sound economic system wherein every individual's income, assets etc are tracked to a reasonable amount of accuracy ? Unless of course you think its ok for hoards of people to dodge taxes and mooch public resources because its too hard to implement a proper financial system in India, so we'll continue to function like the wild west for eternity.
ganeshran Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 You're not following the context of the discussion. Read my earlier post: I oppressed no one and demand that moochers who attended same schools' date= lived in similar conditions do not have extra benefits from the state by virtue of their last name. I am particularly targetting this guy who thinks reservations based on last name is the only means feasible and hence brought myself in the picture. You should be annoyed at him, he's the one encouraging such moronic public policy. How many of your fellow classmates that came off reservations were genuine dalits who struggled for education in their early years ? So many of them are actually the ones taking the benefits that should have been used for upliftment of the oppressed citizens. You never felt the outrage at the misuse of our state resources ? Again your oppressing no one is irrelevant here. Dalits are not being given reservation because me or you oppressed them. It is because our ancestors were the actual moochers who saw fit to condemn an entire class of people to a lifetime of conditions near slavery and denied them the education - the only tool with which they could strive for a better life. Caste based reservation is a must in India, so is exclusion of the creamy layer. Because the discrimination was done on the basis of caste and hence the affirmative action must also be caste based. One of my friends was from the scheduled castes and got a well paying job in BHEL. He was the first graduate in his family and his home looked like it was going to fall down any minute. Your assertion that all reservation is gobbled up by already well to do people is simply not true, benefits are trickling down and that is evident in the better voice that Dalits have today as compared to the pre-independence times where they were simply too scared to raise their voice. Let's face it. Any public welfare move by the government is going to be misused in a country like India. E.g sale of ration rice in the black market doesn't mean we withdraw cheap rice from PDS and condemn millions of people to starvation, it means that the onus is on the policy makers to prevent such misuse and make sure the benefits reach the people it was intended to reach. It is exactly the same case with creamy layer exclusion, track the income of people through PAN and make it hard to work around the income limits. Eventually deserving people will get it.
maniac Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 A Brilliant hand-Picked article if there was one. Accomplishments of the article Makes TOI a credible news source Makes a one-off incident seem like a social evil plaguing the entire religion Gives ammuntion to the 'seculars" to defend the glory of Sharia My Sympathies with the boy but he will have the last laugh as he will get into more prestigious institutions with no fees and with minimal effort. Discrimination exists and incidents like these are shameful but coming from TOI,the intentions seem dubious
maniac Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 Why should there not be reservation in national cricket team? What sense of empowerment it would give if 5-6 of total 11 players in team are from so-called low castes? When you are at it' date=' why go half way. Go full all oiut.[/quote'] BCCI is a private organisation and like any corporate they are not entitled to give reservations.
Clarke Posted August 5, 2013 Posted August 5, 2013 Again your oppressing no one is irrelevant here. Dalits are not being given reservation because me or you oppressed them. It is because our ancestors were the actual moochers who saw fit to condemn an entire class of people to a lifetime of conditions near slavery and denied them the education - the only tool with which they could strive for a better life. Caste based reservation is a must in India, so is exclusion of the creamy layer. Because the discrimination was done on the basis of caste and hence the affirmative action must also be caste based. One of my friends was from the scheduled castes and got a well paying job in BHEL. He was the first graduate in his family and his home looked like it was going to fall down any minute. Your assertion that all reservation is gobbled up by already well to do people is simply not true, benefits are trickling down and that is evident in the better voice that Dalits have today as compared to the pre-independence times where they were simply too scared to raise their voice. Let's face it. Any public welfare move by the government is going to be misused in a country like India. E.g sale of ration rice in the black market doesn't mean we withdraw cheap rice from PDS and condemn millions of people to starvation, it means that the onus is on the policy makers to prevent such misuse and make sure the benefits reach the people it was intended to reach. It is exactly the same case with creamy layer exclusion, track the income of people through PAN and make it hard to work around the income limits. Eventually deserving people will get it. You're contradicting yourself; why not have a caste based PDS system if the system is so necessary and effective ? What's your idea of equality, the poor non-dalit worker deserves an occasional meal while the dalit deserves a meal along with an educational degree and a sarkari naukri ?
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