Your picks for Indian bowling

[mayank098]

Mine Best Indian bowling partners (for 15 players team Fast- Umesh, Irfan pathan, B K, Shami, Mohit Leg spinner- Mishra, [ Somebody else who can really spin the ball ] Off spinner - Ashwin, (need some else too so that Ashwin get some pressure and get some competition) Leftarm spinnner - Ojha, He is little mind using bowler So very very few options for good bowlers in 1.3 billion public

[express bowling]

Because they think he is consistent and accurate as he does not bowl fast. Though even Zimboks can thrash him on seaming tracks with that pace of 125K. People in India think' date=' only slow pace bowler can be accurate.[/quote'] Sad but true.

[msb1991]

If you have limited hopes for Unadkat then why do you think he has earned a go ?

I think some due process (i.e. looking at "actual performance" over "potential" or "how the bowler looks") is necessary to follow. You cannot rely on gut instinct because no matter how much cricket you have watched and how many posts you have on ICF, you can be wrong about a player. Unadkat performed well against Zimbabwe, who are not a top quality team, but you cannot disregard his performance. His performance over 5 ODIs gave the impression of a consistent bowler. He has also shown good performances in the IPL. This should earn him a selection. He is performing against high quality non-international opposition, this should earn him a chance to show if he can do it against the likes of Australia.

[Lord]

Shami,BK,Mohit,Unadkat,Aaron(if fit),Shukla Jadeja,Rasool,Rahul Sharma,Karan Sharma,Nadeem can't be worse than the current lot

[express bowling]

I think some due process (i.e. looking at "actual performance" over "potential" or "how the bowler looks") is necessary to follow. You cannot rely on gut instinct because no matter how much cricket you have watched and how many posts you have on ICF' date=' you can be wrong about a player. Unadkat performed well against Zimbabwe, who are not a top quality team, but you cannot disregard his performance. His performance over 5 ODIs gave the impression of a consistent bowler. He has also shown good performances in the IPL. This should earn him a selection. He is performing against high quality non-international opposition, this should earn him a chance to show if he can do it against the likes of Australia.[/quote'] I think the primary objective of the selectors is to pick the best TEAM possible as opposed to picking individual players without any consideration as to how the team as a whole would look. The total composition of the bowling attack is very important. That is why Australia rarely played a leg spinner of the calibre of McGill when Warne was playing. Our current team has a lot of 125 to 133 k pacers. Don't you you think adding another one would make the attack less potent ? Some are suggesting that Unadkat is bowling quicker these days. If so then ok but whenever I have seen him, he is around 130 k. Regarding his IPL performances , was is that much better than most pacers or just ok ? I did not follow that closely but IPL performances have more often than not been not replicated in the longer versions.

[msb1991]

I think the primary objective of the selectors is to pick the best TEAM possible as opposed to picking individual players without any consideration as to how the team as a whole would look. The total composition of the bowling attack is very important. That is why Australia rarely played a leg spinner of the calibre of McGill when Warne was playing.

I'm going to reply to this later, it is an interesting point. Maybe worth a new thread? Very interesting debate. I'm keen on picking the best 11 players but there are some good arguments for variety (e.g. left armer, someone who bowls swing, someone a bit quicker, different types of spin).

Our current team has a lot of 125 to 133 k pacers. Don't you you think adding another one would make the attack less potent ? Some are suggesting that Unadkat is bowling quicker these days. If so then ok but whenever I have seen him' date=' he is around 130 k.[/quote'] I think the relationship between pace and potency is overstated by many. If you bowl 150kph, you are going to strike regularly. But if you bowl at 135-140kph, are you going to strike more often than someone who bowls at 130kph...I don't see why. The difference is too small. People like to see the 140kph mark because it looks cool but it tends to stay within the comfort zone for most batsmen on most wickets. Certainly 140kph is no issue for a set batsman. Clint McKay bowls 130kph and has an OD strike rate of 29.4. Umesh Yadav bowls 140kph and strikes every 41.4 balls. My view is that if you are good at OD cricket, you will be able to bowl well in Challenger Trophy and Deodhar Trophy and Ranji Trophy OD League. A lot of the batsmen who play in these competitions are not international batsmen and a skillful bowler should be able to restrict them and get wickets. The big issue is that we have no standouts. If Suyal, Shukla, Yadav are the real deal in OD cricket, they should dominate the domestic format. Indian batsmen are notoriously bad against pace, they should find it easier, not harder, then their trundler counterparts. Which brings me onto my next point, I don't think ODI cricket has a distinction between a good wicket-taking bowler and a good tight bowler. I think that given enough ODIs, a bowler will either be both or neither. By "good wicket-taking bowler", I mean someone who picks up important wickets rather than 3 wickets in the 50th over which still concedes 18. Our trundlers are not picking up wickets or keeping it tight, our one fast bowler has not, over his career, picked up wickets or kept things tight. Even Shaun Tait had an economy of 5.19 in ODIs - excellent. Dernbach was supposed to be the true version of a wicket-taker who bowled fast and got wickets and conceded runs but his career showed that this is hard to do in ODI cricket and he ended up being expensive and not taking many wickets with economy of 6.35 and strike rate of 39.8.

[G_B_]

^ a very good post....... On Unadakat. Against Zim when i saw him he was consistently 135 plus. Dont know if he will be a good bowler. But he will be faster me thinks than Vinay. As far as pace goes from what I have seen Umesh Aaron 145-150 plus Suyal- Shukla 140-150 Dinda-Punkaj singh-Dhawal Kulkarni-Unadakat-Shami- 135-140 Ishwar Pandey - 130-135 Bhuvi-Vinay-Mohit- Praveen kumar-Irfan Pathan- 125-130 Ishant sharma hmm its hard to place him. I have seen him bowl long spells at 145. I have also seem him bowl in the late 120. Its really a case of which Ishant turns up. He can potentially occupy all speed zones.

[MCcricket]

I agree selectors and coaches mostly Dhoni are ignorant or not willing to understand, you can afford maximum one m/f bowler (better if he can bat), you need two strike bowlers, bowlers and batters are a different breed, you cannot waste fast bowlers like batters who you let play 4 seasons to mature, what is the basic criteria, pace, bounce, fitness, action, ability to bowl wicket taking balls, what they can learn as they go, line n length, we have a squad and pool of trundle army. A team tours are wasted by not giving, Suyal, Shukla, Pankaj, Aniket, Shami a go and try em in ODI, THEY CANNOT DO WORSE THEN THESE GUYS ALSO WE WILL FIND ONE MORE BOWLER LIKE WE FOUND BK.

[MCcricket]

^ a very good post....... On Unadakat. Against Zim when i saw him he was consistently 135 plus. Dont know if he will be a good bowler. But he will be faster me thinks than Vinay. As far as pace goes from what I have seen Umesh Aaron 145-150 plus Suyal- Shukla 140-150 Dinda-Punkaj singh-Dhawal Kulkarni-Unadakat-Shami- 135-140 Ishwar Pandey - 130-135 Bhuvi-Vinay-Mohit- Praveen kumar-Irfan Pathan- 125-130 Ishant sharma hmm its hard to place him. I have seen him bowl long spells at 145. I have also seem him bowl in the late 120. Its really a case of which Ishant turns up. He can potentially occupy all speed zones.

I think Unadkat is as bad as VK, LAST I SAW HIM IN A GAME HE BOWLED 125K, AND EVEN MEDIOCRE BATTERS STEPPED OUT TO HIM, I THINK HE WENT OVER 6 OR 7 PER OVER.

[G_B_]

@Mcricket I think there are two Unadkats. We all remember a 19 year old who as you said was 120-125 in South africa. To be fair even Dhawal was in the 120-125 range when he was 19. Obviously these guys have hit the gym and have developed physically to boost their physique and bowling speeds. I base my judgement of what i saw recently of him in Zim. Now there might be a case whereby in test cricket he does operate in the 125-130 zone for long spells. But for ODIs i think he is in the 135-140 bracket.

[express bowling]

@ msb When we are talking about a 135 to 140 k bowler being coveted, it is not because of that pace alone. Ordinary pacers at 137 k won't really make much difference as Ishant is proving constantly. But if a pacer has other potent qualities like height/bounce, accuracy, swing, seaming ability then that potency is utilized more easily at 135 k or more. At 127 k or 130 k, a pacer has to be really really skilled to be successful over the long run. A fast bowler maybe unsuccessful, especially in LOIs, if he is inaccurate. Any faster bowler is not an automatic choice over a decent 127 k pacer in LOIs. But you need a decent quick in your attack to make it potent as a whole. I would not compare Umesh with McKay as they perform different functions. But a bowling attack consisting of 3 McKays won't be good and an Umesh replacing even 1 of them would make the team's bowling better.

[MCcricket]

@Mcricket I think there are two Unadkats. We all remember a 19 year old who as you said was 120-125 in South africa. To be fair even Dhawal was in the 120-125 range when he was 19. Obviously these guys have hit the gym and have developed physically to boost their physique and bowling speeds. I base my judgement of what i saw recently of him in Zim. Now there might be a case whereby in test cricket he does operate in the 125-130 zone for long spells. But for ODIs i think he is in the 135-140 bracket.

I HOPE I AM WRONG BUT DID I SEE HIM BOWL IN THE A GAME VERY RECENTLY AND HE LOOKED PATHETIC, Suyal is twice the bowler that Unadkat will ever be, sad selectors are blind to talent.

[express bowling]

@Mcricket I think there are two Unadkats. We all remember a 19 year old who as you said was 120-125 in South africa. To be fair even Dhawal was in the 120-125 range when he was 19. Obviously these guys have hit the gym and have developed physically to boost their physique and bowling speeds. I base my judgement of what i saw recently of him in Zim. Now there might be a case whereby in test cricket he does operate in the 125-130 zone for long spells. But for ODIs i think he is in the 135-140 bracket.

In Zimbabwe they were not showing speeds on tv. Where did you see Unadkat's speed ?

[express bowling]

My view is that if you are good at OD cricket, you will be able to bowl well in Challenger Trophy and Deodhar Trophy and Ranji Trophy OD League. A lot of the batsmen who play in these competitions are not international batsmen and a skillful bowler should be able to restrict them and get wickets. The big issue is that we have no standouts. If Suyal, Shukla, Yadav are the real deal in OD cricket, they should dominate the domestic format. Indian batsmen are notoriously bad against pace, they should find it easier, not harder, ththeir trundler counterparts.

One thing that happens with genuine quicks is that their potential which was not being realized under an inexperienced captain/coach changes when they play under the guidance of an experienced captain/coach/leader. A fast bowler's potential is not always tapped if they are utilized improperly. Ofcourse, it must be said that Dhoni and most Indian captains don't know how to utilize a true fast bowling talent.

[G_B_]

In Zimbabwe they were not showing speeds on tv. Where did you see Unadkat's speed ?

my judgement (as mentioned in my post). Was the quickest of the bunch in zim according to me.

[express bowling]

my judgement (as mentioned in my post). Was the quickest of the bunch in zim according to me.

In the last IPL and Ranji trophy, whatever little I saw of him, he was 130 to 132 k. I did not see him a lot so I hope you are right.

[express bowling]

@ msb One thing I would like to add about Unadkat specifically. I am not automatically against his inclusion in LOIs . He is a rare tall pacer in India and is reasonably accurate. Bounce + reasonable accuracy can be quite useful in LOIs. But, he would be much more potent at 135 to 140. If he is 130 then he should be the only medium pacer in the playing 11.

[MCcricket]

I saw him playing for India A game maybe against WI, HE WAS TAKEN FOR A LOT OF RUNS AND BATTERS PLAYED HIM LIKE A SPINNER, THE SERIES WAS BROADCAST ONLINE ON WILLOW, IT SHOWED HIS PACE AND IT WAS CONSTANTLY 125 TO 130 K, NARWAL WAS 122 TO 127 K, VK WAS 126 TO 131 K, I cannot seriously believe these jokers are better then Suyal, Pankaj, Shukla, Anwar, Aniket.

[msb1991]

@ msb When we are talking about a 135 to 140 k bowler being coveted, it is not because of that pace alone. Ordinary pacers at 137 k won't really make much difference as Ishant is proving constantly. But if a pacer has other potent qualities like height/bounce, accuracy, swing, seaming ability then that potency is utilized more easily at 135 k or more. At 127 k or 130 k, a pacer has to be really really skilled to be successful over the long run.

But surely you judge these "potent qualities" by the wickets they bring. In other words, you go through who is the top domestic performers and you pick them in the India A team or Challenger Trophy and see who excels from that. At 127kph, the bowler has to be really really skilled at all levels (club, domestic, international) in comparison to the 137kph bowlers. International batsmen are just the best domestic batsmen, they are not a different breed of human.

A fast bowler maybe unsuccessful' date=' especially in LOIs, if he is inaccurate. Any faster bowler is not an automatic choice over a decent 127 k pacer in LOIs. But you need a decent quick in your attack to make it potent as a whole. I would not compare Umesh with McKay as they perform different functions. But a bowling attack consisting of 3 McKays won't be good and an Umesh replacing even 1 of them would make the team's bowling better.[/quote'] Three McKay's would be a strong attack. McKay is a very successful bowler because he has that ability to take wickets with the new ball (his hattrick against England) and with the old ball using his slower ball. He is someone excellent with the new ball and yet he has bowled most often at first change and got 36 wickets at 21.97 in that position! I think Umesh has a ton of potential. However, I think that a bowler who produces poor returns is never preferable to someone who produces very good returns. When we're talking two bowlers, one who has good returns and one who has very good returns, then we can have a debate. At the moment though, Umesh is not in McKay's league as a limited overs bowler. Similarly, McKay is not in Umesh's league as a Test bowler.

[msb1991]

I saw him playing for India A game maybe against WI' date=' HE WAS TAKEN FOR A LOT OF RUNS AND BATTERS PLAYED HIM LIKE A SPINNER, THE SERIES WAS BROADCAST ONLINE ON WILLOW, IT SHOWED HIS PACE AND IT WAS CONSTANTLY 125 TO 130 K, NARWAL WAS 122 TO 127 K, VK WAS 126 TO 131 K, I cannot seriously believe these jokers are better then Suyal, Pankaj, Shukla, Anwar, Aniket.[/quote'] I think the rage is unnecessary in most cases. Suyal has played just 7 OD matches in his career. It would be rash to get him in at this stage. He picked up 0 wickets in his two Challenger Trophy games. He was bowling to the likes of Reddy, Naman Ojha, Pandey, Yuvraj Singh, Bawne, Chawla, Uthappa, Mukund, Smit Patel, Jadhav, Yusuf Pathan...none of these players other than Yuvraj are as good as the Australian ODI batting line up. If Suyal cannot take wickets against these people, what train of thought leads you to think he will do it against Australia. I know you cannot write a player off after two games but I am not doing that. I am saying that there is no evidence that he should be fast tracked into the team. Shukla debuted in 2009 and has played 11 First Class matches and 17 ODs and 16 T20s - he is injury prone. Should we not let him string a few games together before we look to promote him up the ranks. I think he should be given an opportunity in limited overs formats (OD and T20) for India A, but not for India. The evidence currently states that he is a potential prospect who will almost certainly be broken by the international schedule if he was thrown in, headfirst. Anwar Ahmed has played 8 ODs. I don't know why people are so crazy about him. I've seen videos of him and he seems like a tall medium pacer. Surely people cannot go so crazy just over height? Aniket has a FC bowling average of 41.63, doesn't have an IPL deal and has never played domestic OD cricket. And you want him in the ODI team?! Is it just because he bowls 135kph?! Something seems to have got him into the India A team because it certainly wasn't his domestic performance. As for Pankaj Singh, who knows what he did to piss off the selectors. I think we all agree he has earned a shot. Much like Badrinath, it does not matter how well he does. It matters that he gets the opportunity!