When will we learn-78mph bowlers have no impact at top level!

[div]

Any one know a guy called Chaminda Vaas?

poor strike rate..good ODI bowler though.

[express bowling]

LIST OF PACERS WITH 200 WICKETS OR MORE IN TESTS AND AVERAGE OF LESS THAN 29 [ PLAYED AFTER 1960 ] The last figure is the average of each bowler. MD Marshall (WI) 1978-1991 81 151 17584 7876 376 7/22 11/89. 20.94. J Garner (WI) 1977-1987 58 111 13169 5433 259 6/56 9/108. 20.97 CEL Ambrose (WI) 1988-2000 98 179 22103 8501 405 8/45 11/84 20.99. FS Trueman (Eng) 1952-1965 67 127 15178 6625 307 8/31 12/119 21.57. GD McGrath (Aus) 1993-2007 124 243 29248 12186 563 8/24 10/27. 21.64. AA Donald (SA) 1992-2002 72 129 15519 7344 330 8/71 12/139 22.25. Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 1973-1990 86 150 21918 9611 431 9/52 15/123 22.29 Imran Khan (Pak) 1971-1992 88 142 19458 8258 362 8/58 14/116 22.81. DW Steyn (SA) 2004-2013 69 130 14724 8016 350 7/51 11/60. 22.90. SM Pollock (SA) 1995-2008 108 202 24353 9733 421 7/87 10/147 23.11. Waqar Younis (Pak) 1989-2003 87 154 16224 8788 373 7/76 13/135 23.56 Wasim Akram (Pak) 1985-2002 104 181 22627 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62. MA Holding (WI) 1975-1987 60 113 12680 5898 249 8/92 14/149 23.68. DK Lillee (Aus) 1971-1984 70 132 18467 8493 355 7/83 11/123 23.92. CA Walsh (WI) 1984-2001 132 242 30019 12688 519 7/37 13/55 24.44. RGD Willis (Eng) 1971-1984 90 165 17357 8190 325 8/43 9/92. 25.20 AME Roberts (WI) 1974-1983 47 90 11135 5174 202 7/54 12/121 25.61. JN Gillespie (Aus) 1996-2006 71 137 14234 6770 259 7/37 9/80 26 JA Snow (Eng) 1965-1976 49 93 12021 5387 202 7/40 10/142 26.66 JR Thomson (Aus) 1972-1985 51 90 10535 5601 200 6/46 9/105. 28.00. HH Streak (Zim) 1993-2005 65 102 13559 6079 216 6/73 9/72 28.14. MG Johnson (Aus) 2007-2014 56 107 12470 6858 242 8/61 11/159 28.33. MG Hughes (Aus) 1985-1994 53 97 12285 6017 212 8/87 13/217. 28.38. D Gough (Eng) 1994-2003 58 95 11821 6503 229 6/42 9/92 28.39. IT Botham (Eng) 1977-1992 102 168 21815 10878 383 8/34 13/106 28.40. CJ McDermott (Aus) 1984-1996 71 124 16586 8332 291 8/97 11/157. 28.63. M Ntini (SA) 1998-2009 101 190 20834 11242 390 7/37 13/132 28.82. LIST OF PACERS WITH 200 WICKETS OR MORE IN TESTS AND STRIKE RATE OF LESS THAN 56 [ PLAYED AFTER 1960 ] The last figure is the strike rate of each player. DW Steyn (SA) 2004-2013 69 130 14724 8016 350 7/51 11/60 22.90 3.26 42.0. Waqar Younis (Pak) 1989-2003 87 154 16224 8788 373 7/76 13/135 23.56 3.25. 43.4. MD Marshall (WI) 1978-1991 81 151 17584 7876 376 7/22 11/89 20.94 2.68. 46.7. AA Donald (SA) 1992-2002 72 129 15519 7344 330 8/71 12/139 22.25 2.83. 47.0. J Garner (WI) 1977-1987 58 111 13169 5433 259 6/56 9/108 20.97 2. 47 50. Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 1973-1990 86 150 21918 9611 431 9/52 15/123 22.29 2.63. 50.8. MA Holding (WI) 1975-1987 60 113 12680 5898 249 8/92 14/149 23.68 2.79 50.9. MG Johnson (Aus) 2007-2014 56 107 12470 6858 242 8/61 11/159 28.33 3.29 51.5. D Gough (Eng) 1994-2003 58 95 11821 6503 229 6/42 9/92 28.39 3.30 51.6. GD McGrath (Aus) 1993-2007 124 243 29248 12186 563 8/24 10/27 21.64 2.49 51.9. DK Lillee (Aus) 1971-1984 70 132 18467 8493 355 7/83 11/123 23.92 2.75 52.0 JR Thomson (Aus) 1972-1985 51 90 10535 5601 200 6/46 9/105 28.00 3.18 52.6. B Lee (Aus) 1999-2008 76 150 16531 9554 310 5/30 9/171 30.81 3.46. 53.3 RGD Willis (Eng) 1971-1984 90 165 17357 8190 325 8/43 9/92 25.20 2.83 53.4 M Ntini (SA) 1998-2009 101 190 20834 11242 390 7/37 13/132 28.82 3.23 53.4. CL Cairns (NZ) 1989-2004 62 104 11698 6410 218 7/27 10/100 29.40 3.28 53.6. Imran Khan (Pak) 1971-1992 88 142 19458 8258 362 8/58 14/116 22.81 2. 54 53. CEL Ambrose (WI) 1988-2000 98 179 22103 8501 405 8/45 11/84 20.99 2.30 54.5. 3 asim Akram (Pak) 1985-2002 104 181 22627 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59. 54.6. JN Gillespie (Aus) 1996-2006 71 137 14234 6770 259 7/37 9/80 26.13 2.85 54.9. AME Roberts (WI) 1974-1983 47 90 11135 5174 202 7/54 12/121 25.61 2.78. 55.1. These are the types of pacers who succeed in tests. In their PRIME ( before they became old and slower ) almost all these pacers were / are either FAST or FAST - MEDIUM. Most FAST-MEDIUM bowlers in these lists are really tall and got steep bounce. No short medium pacers present. No dibbly dobbly seamers present. Almost all , if not all, pacers in this list had or have the ability to hit the deck hard and get pace and bounce off the pitch when the situation warranted or warrants.

[Muloghonto]

Ambrose was a trundler during his last 2 years' date=' but he was still mighty effective due to his height and experience.[/quote'] And control. Ambrose in his last two years bowled at 78-80mph but had comparable control to Kumble or Murali- could put the ball on the same dime sized patch 50 times out of 50. Those who say Umesh has control- his control is distinctly mediocre and below average for international standards.

[rkt.india]

And control. Ambrose in his last two years bowled at 78-80mph but had comparable control to Kumble or Murali- could put the ball on the same dime sized patch 50 times out of 50. Those who say Umesh has control- his control is distinctly mediocre and below average for international standards.

Umesh does not have a great control, but not many genuine pacers possessed them at the start of their career. What he has is wicket taking ability in test cricket.

[saneindian]

Umesh does not have a great control' date=' but not many genuine pacers possessed them at the start of their career. What he has is wicket taking ability in test cricket.[/quote'] 6 wickets@68 in his last 4 FC matches post the injury comeback doesn't make for a great reading. Had it been just a match or two, would still have been ok, but he was out of sorts during these matches, bowling well in patches but never looking like taking wickets

[rkt.india]

6 wickets@68 in his last 4 FC matches post the injury comeback doesn't make for a great reading. Had it been just a match or two, would still have been ok, but he was out of sorts during these matches, bowling well in patches but never looking like taking wickets

Vijay averaged 17 in Ranji but still picked. These things do not work on every player and every time. Sometimes, you are not motivated enough in low level matches. He did look good in the ODI I watched.

[saneindian]

Vijay averaged 17 in Ranji but still picked. These things do not work on every player and every time. Sometimes' date=' you are not motivated enough in low level matches. He did look good in the ODI I watched.[/quote'] Last I knew Vijay was not making a comeback after injury, had played each of the 6 tests we had played before SA series whereas Umesh has not played a test for over 12-13 months. Totally different situations

[rkt.india]

Last I knew Vijay was not making a comeback after injury' date=' had played each of the 6 tests we had played before SA series whereas Umesh has not played a test for over 12-13 months. Totally different situations[/quote'] How does it matter if he was making come back after injury or no?. Thing is he was fit. He made come back during IPL and did bowl well then. Did bowl well in CT, not consistently but did not look poor, took 5-fer in warmup as well. You are talking like he made his come back in October. Before Ausralia series last year, Vijay averaged 17 in Ranji trophy, still played tests. FC performance for proven performer sometimes should be taken with a pinch of salt. He should be played in tests and intensity there will help him improve, not ODIs. They say he is reserved for tests but he did not play even tests since his come back.

[saneindian]

How does it matter if he was making come back after injury or no?. Thing is he was fit. He made come back during IPL and did bowl well then. Did bowl well in CT' date=' not consistently but did not look poor, took 5-fer in warmup as well. You are talking like he made his come back in October. Before Ausralia series last year, Vijay averaged 17 in Ranji trophy, still played tests. FC performance for proven performer sometimes should be taken with a pinch of salt. He should be played in tests and intensity there will help him improve, not ODIs. They say he is reserved for tests but he did not play even tests since his come back.[/quote'] RKT difference is no one has called Vijay a run machine, you are the one who's calling Umesh a wicket taking bowler. A wicket taking bowler will not struggle to take wickets in 4 FC matches, in List A matches and so on. And sorry Umesh is not yet a proven performer (nor is Vijay). If at such an age he doesn't feel motivated enough to bowl well in FC cricket, then that reflects a very poor attitude. As for Vijay's selection , what you conveniently forgot was that he hit 116 in the Irani Trophy match vs Mumbai just before the Australia tests (and another 266 vs Rajasthan in the season opener Irani Trophy match). So before being picked in the side, in the FC season he had scored 600+ runs@47, not the worst numbers for an Indian opener.

[rkt.india]

RKT difference is no one has called Vijay a run machine, you are the one who's calling Umesh a wicket taking bowler. A wicket taking bowler will not struggle to take wickets in 4 FC matches, in List A matches and so on. And sorry Umesh is not yet a proven performer (nor is Vijay). If at such an age he doesn't feel motivated enough to bowl well in FC cricket, then that reflects a very poor attitude. As for Vijay's selection , what you conveniently forgot was that he hit 116 in the Irani Trophy match vs Mumbai just before the Australia tests (and another 266 vs Rajasthan in the season opener Irani Trophy match). So before being picked in the side, in the FC season he had scored 600+ runs@47, not the worst numbers for an Indian opener.

I dont care what he was doing in FC cricket. What I care he did take wickets even after his come back in international matches, crucial wickets in matches in CT, 5-fer in warmup before that, etc. and he deserved 2 test matches against WI ahead of BK who has not set the test arena on fire and instead of Ishant in SA.

[express bowling]

Umesh is an erratic bowler. But he has a strike rate of 46 in 9 tests he has played. That is exceptional even by international standards. His average of 32 is decent by Indian standards. So , he is a wicket taker at test level. That is the most important thing. Just looking at the last few domestic matches to justify eliminating a genuinely quick wicket taking bowler, makes little sense. Especially because the ones choosen of instead of him have averages around 38 and strike rates of around 68. If we had a pacer like Shami replacing him then that is another matter. But , Ishant and Bhuvi cannot be his replacements.

[saneindian]

I dont care what he was doing in FC cricket. What I care he did take wickets even after his come back in international matches' date=' crucial wickets in matches in CT, 5-fer in warmup before that, etc. and he deserved 2 test matches against WI ahead of BK who has not set the test arena on fire and instead of Ishant in SA.[/quote'] Haha so ODI warm ups count but the FC performances immediately before test series do not count especially when his problems began after he was rested from the Zim tour? Also if he continues to 'not feel motivated about the FC matches', will not be long before he totally loses it. Just because you can bowl at140 kph+ doesn't give you an automatic pass into the national squad.

[Vijy]

Umesh is an erratic bowler. But he has a strike rate of 46 in 9 tests he has played. That is exceptional even by international standards. His average of 32 is decent by Indian standards. So , he is a wicket taker at test level. That is the most important thing. Just looking at the last few domestic matches to justify eliminating a genuinely quick wicket taking bowler, makes little sense. Especially because the ones choosen of instead of him have averages around 38 and strike rates of around 68. If we had a pacer like Shami replacing him then that is another matter. But , Ishant and Bhuvi cannot be his replacements.

Hear, hear. Agreed.

[King Tendulkar]

Umesh is an erratic bowler. But he has a strike rate of 46 in 9 tests he has played. That is exceptional even by international standards. His average of 32 is decent by Indian standards. So , he is a wicket taker at test level. That is the most important thing. Just looking at the last few domestic matches to justify eliminating a genuinely quick wicket taking bowler, makes little sense. Especially because the ones choosen of instead of him have averages around 38 and strike rates of around 68. If we had a pacer like Shami replacing him then that is another matter. But , Ishant and Bhuvi cannot be his replacements.

Facts are. He has raw ingredients to be a sucess if giving time to develop. Thats the problem not being given chance to develop the fast bowler By the way even this raw fast bowler has much better test average/strike rate then Ishant and BK to name just 2

[King Tendulkar]

LIST OF PACERS WITH 200 WICKETS OR MORE IN TESTS AND AVERAGE OF LESS THAN 29 [ PLAYED AFTER 1960 ] The last figure is the average of each bowler. MD Marshall (WI) 1978-1991 81 151 17584 7876 376 7/22 11/89. 20.94. J Garner (WI) 1977-1987 58 111 13169 5433 259 6/56 9/108. 20.97 CEL Ambrose (WI) 1988-2000 98 179 22103 8501 405 8/45 11/84 20.99. FS Trueman (Eng) 1952-1965 67 127 15178 6625 307 8/31 12/119 21.57. GD McGrath (Aus) 1993-2007 124 243 29248 12186 563 8/24 10/27. 21.64. AA Donald (SA) 1992-2002 72 129 15519 7344 330 8/71 12/139 22.25. Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 1973-1990 86 150 21918 9611 431 9/52 15/123 22.29 Imran Khan (Pak) 1971-1992 88 142 19458 8258 362 8/58 14/116 22.81. DW Steyn (SA) 2004-2013 69 130 14724 8016 350 7/51 11/60. 22.90. SM Pollock (SA) 1995-2008 108 202 24353 9733 421 7/87 10/147 23.11. Waqar Younis (Pak) 1989-2003 87 154 16224 8788 373 7/76 13/135 23.56 Wasim Akram (Pak) 1985-2002 104 181 22627 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62. MA Holding (WI) 1975-1987 60 113 12680 5898 249 8/92 14/149 23.68. DK Lillee (Aus) 1971-1984 70 132 18467 8493 355 7/83 11/123 23.92. CA Walsh (WI) 1984-2001 132 242 30019 12688 519 7/37 13/55 24.44. RGD Willis (Eng) 1971-1984 90 165 17357 8190 325 8/43 9/92. 25.20 AME Roberts (WI) 1974-1983 47 90 11135 5174 202 7/54 12/121 25.61. JN Gillespie (Aus) 1996-2006 71 137 14234 6770 259 7/37 9/80 26 JA Snow (Eng) 1965-1976 49 93 12021 5387 202 7/40 10/142 26.66 JR Thomson (Aus) 1972-1985 51 90 10535 5601 200 6/46 9/105. 28.00. HH Streak (Zim) 1993-2005 65 102 13559 6079 216 6/73 9/72 28.14. MG Johnson (Aus) 2007-2014 56 107 12470 6858 242 8/61 11/159 28.33. MG Hughes (Aus) 1985-1994 53 97 12285 6017 212 8/87 13/217. 28.38. D Gough (Eng) 1994-2003 58 95 11821 6503 229 6/42 9/92 28.39. IT Botham (Eng) 1977-1992 102 168 21815 10878 383 8/34 13/106 28.40. CJ McDermott (Aus) 1984-1996 71 124 16586 8332 291 8/97 11/157. 28.63. M Ntini (SA) 1998-2009 101 190 20834 11242 390 7/37 13/132 28.82. LIST OF PACERS WITH 200 WICKETS OR MORE IN TESTS AND STRIKE RATE OF LESS THAN 56 [ PLAYED AFTER 1960 ] The last figure is the strike rate of each player. DW Steyn (SA) 2004-2013 69 130 14724 8016 350 7/51 11/60 22.90 3.26 42.0. Waqar Younis (Pak) 1989-2003 87 154 16224 8788 373 7/76 13/135 23.56 3.25. 43.4. MD Marshall (WI) 1978-1991 81 151 17584 7876 376 7/22 11/89 20.94 2.68. 46.7. AA Donald (SA) 1992-2002 72 129 15519 7344 330 8/71 12/139 22.25 2.83. 47.0. J Garner (WI) 1977-1987 58 111 13169 5433 259 6/56 9/108 20.97 2. 47 50. Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 1973-1990 86 150 21918 9611 431 9/52 15/123 22.29 2.63. 50.8. MA Holding (WI) 1975-1987 60 113 12680 5898 249 8/92 14/149 23.68 2.79 50.9. MG Johnson (Aus) 2007-2014 56 107 12470 6858 242 8/61 11/159 28.33 3.29 51.5. D Gough (Eng) 1994-2003 58 95 11821 6503 229 6/42 9/92 28.39 3.30 51.6. GD McGrath (Aus) 1993-2007 124 243 29248 12186 563 8/24 10/27 21.64 2.49 51.9. DK Lillee (Aus) 1971-1984 70 132 18467 8493 355 7/83 11/123 23.92 2.75 52.0 JR Thomson (Aus) 1972-1985 51 90 10535 5601 200 6/46 9/105 28.00 3.18 52.6. B Lee (Aus) 1999-2008 76 150 16531 9554 310 5/30 9/171 30.81 3.46. 53.3 RGD Willis (Eng) 1971-1984 90 165 17357 8190 325 8/43 9/92 25.20 2.83 53.4 M Ntini (SA) 1998-2009 101 190 20834 11242 390 7/37 13/132 28.82 3.23 53.4. CL Cairns (NZ) 1989-2004 62 104 11698 6410 218 7/27 10/100 29.40 3.28 53.6. Imran Khan (Pak) 1971-1992 88 142 19458 8258 362 8/58 14/116 22.81 2. 54 53. CEL Ambrose (WI) 1988-2000 98 179 22103 8501 405 8/45 11/84 20.99 2.30 54.5. 3 asim Akram (Pak) 1985-2002 104 181 22627 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59. 54.6. JN Gillespie (Aus) 1996-2006 71 137 14234 6770 259 7/37 9/80 26.13 2.85 54.9. AME Roberts (WI) 1974-1983 47 90 11135 5174 202 7/54 12/121 25.61 2.78. 55.1. These are the types of pacers who succeed in tests. In their PRIME ( before they became old and slower ) almost all these pacers were / are either FAST or FAST - MEDIUM. Most FAST-MEDIUM bowlers in these lists are really tall and got steep bounce. No short medium pacers present. No dibbly dobbly seamers present. Almost all , if not all, pacers in this list had or have the ability to hit the deck hard and get pace and bounce off the pitch when the situation warranted or warrants.

Whole of cricket history shows what you say. But we just dont learn in this country. Still trundler fans will come out. I mean they even take some of the great fast bowlers in cricket history and try and use their last series or 2 when oaps to make out that trundling is ok:giggle:

[King Tendulkar]

Haha so ODI warm ups count but the FC performances immediately before test series do not count especially when his problems began after he was rested from the Zim tour? Also if he continues to 'not feel motivated about the FC matches', will not be long before he totally loses it. Just because you can bowl at140 kph+ doesn't give you an automatic pass into the national squad.

Look who is keeping him out of team. No offence an oap and **** sucker. If he had some quality keepng him out you may have a point. Tell me your bowling line up then please? I dont see how onw of most powder puff seam attacks in world can leave out its one genuine fast bowler! The mind boggles

[saneindian]

Look who is keeping him out of team. No offence an oap and **** sucker. If he had some quality keepng him out you may have a point. Tell me your bowling line up then please? I dont see how onw of most powder puff seam attacks in world can leave out its one genuine fast bowler! The mind boggles

Or could it be better for him in the long run? He's not in rhythm right now and runs the danger of not doing well , losing his confidence further and ultimately his spot. I would much rather want to see him comeback when he is ready again.There is lots of cricket ahead of us and he's going to get his opportunity soon.

[express bowling]

Whole of cricket history shows what you say. But we just dont learn in this country. Still trundler fans will come out. I mean they even take some of the great fast bowlers in cricket history and try and use their last series or 2 when oaps to make out that trundling is ok:giggle:

:cantstop: Any scrap that can be found to prove that pace does not work or is not needed.

[express bowling]

Or could it be better for him in the long run? He's not in rhythm right now and runs the danger of not doing well ' date=' losing his confidence further and ultimately his spot. I would much rather want to see him comeback when he is ready again.There is lots of cricket ahead of us and he's going to get his opportunity soon.[/quote'] There is also the possibility of lack of confidence and motivation after being dropped time and again and replaced by pacers who look equally out of sync. Fast bowlers often perform based on motivation, especially the relatively newer ones.

[alexander]

Have you ever looked at Shaun Tait's ODI record. You need to see it.

Also :giggle: at placing Umesh Yadav with Shaun Tait in terms of pace. Tait is/was a hell of a bowler in the shorter formats.