Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[MediumPacer]

19 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Watched some PSL highlights, Ubid (Naseensha -Pak) bowled some balls in mid 140s and was erratic, Zeshaan (7 footer) never bowled 140+ kmph.

With lack of awareness on how to keep big units fit it will be hard for Zeshaan to play longterm, to much goes on the body  and to recover and replenish after each match will be impossible.

Eng, Aus, NZ were not abe to keep players like Flintoff, Watson and Jamison fit not sure if PCB has the resources and scientific knowledge of doing it. 

 

In U19 Wc Limbani looked slower than these 2, think no need to fast track him now, let him develop some pace and skills in domestics.

Pushing Nagarkoti and Navi has produced no results, they got injured and now they are nowhere in picking order, let youngster develop and come through the ranks.

 

Ind has a healthy amount of faster bowlers to pick from if they want to.

 

what i like about these shah brothers is they bowl wk to wk,ideal for asia.

 

 

One of mavi's main issue is he cant bowl the outswinger and with his action the inswinger goes straight from the hand a bit like ishant. Bumrah is the upgrade over these two.

 

[tapandrun]

34 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

what i like about these shah brothers is they bowl wk to wk,ideal for asia.

 

 

One of mavi's main issue is he cant bowl the outswinger and with his action the inswinger goes straight from the hand a bit like ishant. Bumrah is the upgrade over these two.

 

Not sure of other 2 Shah brother, bt what makes Naseem different is the amount of bounce/kick he gets from the pitch from awkward length for being a shorter bowler.

Then it dart around after pitching, with his height he was supposed to be skiddy bt he gets bounce which makes it difficult for a batter who has not played him before.

 

Mavi lost pace bowling sub 125 kmph in t20s, not sure what pace he will bowl in FC/test, Inswining bowlers are not preferred in T20s/Odis but in test they are good as any. Teams can maintain pressure on the batter all the time will make them play and with natural wear tear few bowls will leave a right handed batter to be effective.

 

I think that's why Rana was not picked in the starting 11 for KKR in the starting because he does not have outswing ball, but with his height and bounce  he got made it tough for batters thats why Ind can try him in tests first

 

 

Edited March 11, 2024 by tapandrun

[singhvivek141]

16 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

in our conditions pace doesnt work ,we saw what happened to wood here, but on the headingly deck he could just hit the deck and rush the aussies.

 

Brainless raw pace is different, pace plus movement is what we're looking.

Rauf, Riaz, Sami type bowlers are not comparable to Steyn, Gillespie type bowlers..who can hit 145 when needed but were extremely success.

 

If we can prepare pitches will different nature (like in Australia), it will have sufficient support for every type of bowler.

[tapandrun]

3 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Brainless raw pace is different, pace plus movement is what we're looking.

Rauf, Riaz, Sami type bowlers are not comparable to Steyn, Gillespie type bowlers..who can hit 145 when needed but were extremely success.

 

If we can prepare pitches will different nature (like in Australia), it will have sufficient support for every type of bowler.

Sami was good , was fast and bowled at stums and with low bouncy wkts  with his pace he was a proper wkt taker and when wkt is cracking/drying off he was even more effective.Think he have couple of hattricks.

 

Rauf has not played any FC / domestic, it was surprising to see him bowling 10 over with high pace and be there for 50 overs. The was playing tape-ball 5 years back and would have bowled 20 balls at max in a day.

 

Flat wkts where batters were not in hurry to hit every ball and can pick and chose their areas would be hard for him, who has three balls - Yorker bouncer and slower1- Which works perfectly when batters were going hell4leather, we saw that in last 10 overs Pak bowling was able to pull things back when batters were going after them 

Edited March 11, 2024 by tapandrun

[singhvivek141]

27 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

Same reason why this TM and selection are not trying or giving emphasis on genuine pacer, with a bit slower bowler who can bowl an effort ball touching 140 kmph gives them fake sense of control -- edges/drives will not go for 4/6 and fielders have a chance of chasing down the ball.

 

This happened with Tyagi a lot in the UPT20, edges were flying through the slip cordon, top edge were flowing above the keeper's head and the captain has no idea how to setup a field.

 

Tyagi thereafter started bowling a lot fuller to avoid going runs in those back of keeper areas.

[singhvivek141]

5 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Sami was good , was fast and bowled at stums and with low bouncy wkts  with his pace he was a proper wkt taker and when wkt is cracking/drying off he was even more effective.Think he have couple of hattricks 

Sami started off quite well, but his deliveries were hittable and was a mentally weak bowler.

Couple of boundaries and he will start bowling wayward...I think he even has a record of bowling 17 deliveries in one over.

 

Just like Wahab Riaz, he had some flash moments at the start of his career. Once batters understood him, he had no skills to bounce back from.

[Mesky99]

37 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

Good point Tyagi has hardly played any domestic either he is being injured or not able to make it into playing 11.

Sen was good bt MP didnt give him much chances either, this season he has been recovering from injury so can not say much abt him.

 

But all the upcoming faster bowlers have to have a good Domestic season, a good over here a good over there, 1 ball in access of 145 kmph is not good enough.

But there is a problem in domestics as well, specially Ranji , all the runs come from 2 shots cover drive and flick of the pads there is no third shot to been seen.

 

With poke around and find out batting floaty kind of bowlers are more effective as if batter pokes/players a cover drive either it goes to cover and if there is fine nick then it goes to keeper and thick nick it goes to 3rd man and with the lack of pace provided by the bowlers gives the fielding side a chance to stop the boundaries by either chansing down the ball or lack of power behind the shot. So bowlers with lower pace are preferred choice.

 

Same reason why this TM and selection are not trying or giving emphasis on genuine pacer, with a bit slower bowler who can bowl an effort ball touching 140 kmph gives them fake sense of control -- edges/drives will not go for 4/6 and fielders have a chance of chasing down the ball.

 

Most pitches lack carry but the green tinge of grass does not allow stroke making, rahane never looked fluent today against pacers but on pitches with true bounce he would cut and pull, someone like amandeep khare has every shot but never gets spoken about.

[tapandrun]

1 hour ago, Mesky99 said:

Most pitches lack carry but the green tinge of grass does not allow stroke making, rahane never looked fluent today against pacers but on pitches with true bounce he would cut and pull, someone like amandeep khare has every shot but never gets spoken about.

Match is in Mumbai , Mumbai is playing the final, Rahane is the captain he could have asked for harder surface. 

Wankhade is amongst the bounciest wkts in Ind but still Mumbai does not have a proper tall pace bowler who can benefit from the bounce.

The reason being fake sense on control with Ind captains and system by playing pacer who bowl at lower pace.

[Kron]

10 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Match is in Mumbai , Mumbai is playing the final, Rahane is the captain he could have asked for harder surface. 

Wankhade is amongst the bounciest wkts in Ind but still Mumbai does not have a proper tall pace bowler who can benefit from the bounce.

The reason being fake sense on control with Ind captains and system by playing pacer who bowl at lower pace.

Shreyas iyer said he is used to bounce and plays bounce well. 

Because of hard bouncy pitches in Mumbai.

Lol

He says you guys keep spreading false information that I am weak vs short ball

 

Bloody mediocre ranji trundler ia bouncing him out now haha

 

One ball short. Next ball full length. Gone bowled him

[MediumPacer]

12 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Not sure of other 2 Shah brother, bt what makes Naseem different is the amount of bounce/kick he gets from the pitch from awkward length for being a shorter bowler.

Then it dart around after pitching, with his height he was supposed to be skiddy bt he gets bounce which makes it difficult for a batter who has not played him before.

 

Mavi lost pace bowling sub 125 kmph in t20s, not sure what pace he will bowl in FC/test, Inswining bowlers are not preferred in T20s/Odis but in test they are good as any. Teams can maintain pressure on the batter all the time will make them play and with natural wear tear few bowls will leave a right handed batter to be effective.

 

I think that's why Rana was not picked in the starting 11 for KKR in the starting because he does not have outswing ball, but with his height and bounce  he got made it tough for batters thats why Ind can try him in tests first

 

 

Naseem doenst get that much bounce ,if anything bounce only allows batters to play their strokes in asian conditions.

 

Mavi doesnt bowl under 125 in t20s ,it's a ridiculous claim .Even under 125 someone like sandeep sharma does quite well in t20s,Infact 130-140 is ideal pace for strokeplay in india.At speeds around 120, ball wont come onto the bat and make it difficult for the batsmen to time the ball.

 

Rana does have outswing but lacks control.Bounce and pace is what allows batsmen to play their shots in India .This is why i would pick a shami or even umesh over a hazelwood or rabada in india .

[MediumPacer]

12 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Brainless raw pace is different, pace plus movement is what we're looking.

Rauf, Riaz, Sami type bowlers are not comparable to Steyn, Gillespie type bowlers..who can hit 145 when needed but were extremely success.

 

If we can prepare pitches will different nature (like in Australia), it will have sufficient support for every type of bowler.

how do you then explain umesh and shami doing well in inda ,neither are that smart .

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, MediumPacer said:

how do you then explain umesh and shami doing well in inda ,neither are that smart .

Shami is a smart bowler and is skilful as well. He has the ability to plan a dismissal and hence he is one of the most successful bowlers ever.

 

Umesh too is very skilful, its just that he lacks control and hence end up spraying the bowl even at a low pace. But he has the ability to produce jaffa's out of nowhere. In 2016-17 SA series Umesh bowled with a slightly slingy action to generate tremendous amount of reverse swing at pace.

[MediumPacer]

https://www.espncricinfo.com/sponsored-content/mrf-has-launched-its-ace-of-pace-initiative-which-aims-to-discover-india-s-fast-bowlers-1424580

 

 

will it make any difference ,

 

 

Quote

Three standout talents - Jaskaran Singh, aged 20 from Rajasthan - Sriganganagar, Mohd Izhar aged - 20 from Bihar - Birpur, Muhammad Sarfraj, aged - 20 from Ranchi - Jharkhand, were selected from among the many aspiring bowlers, to train for free at the prestigious MRF Pace Foundation. These bowlers will be enrolled in the academy to hone and develop their skills under the guidance of the Foundation's Director, the legendary fast bowler, Glenn McGrath, and Chief Coach, M. Senthilnathan.

 

 

 

The 3 highlighted guys are from bihar,jharkhand and rajasthan ,will we ever hear from them again.

 

 

[MediumPacer]

1 minute ago, singhvivek141 said:

Shami is a smart bowler and is skilful as well. He has the ability to plan a dismissal and hence he is one of the most successful bowlers ever.

 

Umesh too is very skilful, its just that he lacks control and hence end up spraying the bowl even at a low pace. But he has the ability to produce jaffa's out of nowhere. In 2016-17 SA series Umesh bowled with a slightly slingy action to generate tremendous amount of reverse swing at pace.

I wont call them smart ,they are condition dependent bowlers .By your standard any wicket taker is smart ,maybe even jadeja becomes smart .

 

 

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, MediumPacer said:

 

Mavi doesnt bowl under 125 in t20s ,it's a ridiculous claim .Even under 125 someone like sandeep sharma does quite well in t20s,Infact 130-140 is ideal pace for strokeplay in india.At speeds around 120, ball wont come onto the bat and make it difficult for the batsmen to time the ball.

Only when you use this as a surprise.

If a bowler keeps on bowling at 120-125k, it gives batters enough time to line up and tonk the ball considering how thick the bats are.

 

One reason where this can come handy in T20's is when the bowler is either superbly accurate or bowls away from the batters hitting arc. Since most of the batters these days don't move their feet much and rely more on hand power & bat speed, an edge can more often than not land in the ground. That's not true for quicks as even their edges often fly away to the boundary.

 

1 hour ago, MediumPacer said:

Bounce and pace is what allows batsmen to play their shots in India .This is why i would pick a shami or even umesh over a hazelwood or rabada in india .

Not necessarily, many Indian domestic batters are uncomfortable against pace and bounce. Sarfaraz was uncomfortable against Wood in IPL, same guy was tonking Bhuvi for fun. 

 

In India most of the pitches don't have true bounce and hence don't rise above the ribs. The moment bounce start hitting at helmets of the batters, you will immediately see the fear in their style of play. Raina, Iyer, Nitish Rana all has this issue.

 

 

[singhvivek141]

9 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

I wont call them smart ,they are condition dependent bowlers .By your standard any wicket taker is smart ,maybe even jadeja becomes smart .

 

Shami has under 25 bowling avg in India, SA, SL, WI. Different conditions. Not 100% perfect but isn't a one trick pony either.

 

Umesh too isn't condition dependent bowler, he has good stats in India Bangaldesh but poor in SL. Borderline decentish in England but poor in NZ. He is mood dependent.

[MediumPacer]

17 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Shami has under 25 bowling avg in India, SA, SL, WI. Different conditions. Not 100% perfect but isn't a one trick pony either.

 

Umesh too isn't condition dependent bowler, he has good stats in India Bangaldesh but poor in SL. Borderline decentish in England but poor in NZ. He is mood dependent.

Sa pitches have been up and down but otherwise the other 3 are similar . Shami has better control so he is more dependable  .Umesh isnt mood dependent ,he just an idiot but because we arent any good at pace bowling so we needed him.

[MediumPacer]

32 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Only when you use this as a surprise.

If a bowler keeps on bowling at 120-125k, it gives batters enough time to line up and tonk the ball considering how thick the bats are.

 

One reason where this can come handy in T20's is when the bowler is either superbly accurate or bowls away from the batters hitting arc. Since most of the batters these days don't move their feet much and rely more on hand power & bat speed, an edge can more often than not land in the ground. That's not true for quicks as even their edges often fly away to the boundary.

 

Not necessarily, many Indian domestic batters are uncomfortable against pace and bounce. Sarfaraz was uncomfortable against Wood in IPL, same guy was tonking Bhuvi for fun. 

 

In India most of the pitches don't have true bounce and hence don't rise above the ribs. The moment bounce start hitting at helmets of the batters, you will immediately see the fear in their style of play. Raina, Iyer, Nitish Rana all has this issue.

 

 

I can also bring up Kohli  getting dismissed by sandeep sharma.

 

That pitch at Lucknow had inconsistent bounce,so wood was effective otherwise we saw what happened during the test series.sarfaraz padikal all scored runs ,even kuldeep and bumrah couldn't be dislodged by wood.

[MediumPacer]

45 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Only when you use this as a surprise.

If a bowler keeps on bowling at 120-125k, it gives batters enough time to line up and tonk the ball considering how thick the bats are.

Exactly, that means he can't just time it and tonking is more risky specially in the longer format.

[singhvivek141]

34 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

Exactly, that means he can't just time it and tonking is more risky specially in the longer format.

 

If it's a slow and dead track..then I agree. Batters will have to force to generate extra power and hence can mishit in process. SRH & CSK were successful with that approach.

 

If the pitch has a bit of life, 120-125 kph will be easiest to hit.