kubrickian Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Yup ,45 odd at home and 32 away(including SC). His record is abysmal in aus,windies where he avgs sub 25,32 odd in saf and England IIRC which is decent enough Even Dravid averaged in 20s in SA. Sehwag also averaged in 20s in Eng, SA.
velu Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Yes. Even this 25 is with some of the meaningless fifties like in Birmingham test last English tour. http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2011/engine/match/474474.html glass houses and stones :angelic:
kubrickian Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Yes Dhoni has been the best for now. But the question asked by fans today is not about whether he has or he has not been the best. Its about WHETHER he can hold a spot on his own NOW if his Test captaincy is stripped. The answer is we don't know. Its not a sure shot case. Things have changed. Gilly heralded an era where WK were expected to bat well. Dhoni did it for India. Obviously, he is the best Test wk batsman we had. But now, the situation has changed. We have guys coming up the ranks (Saha and a few others are developing in domestic circuit) who can average 30 odd and play proper knocks when needed. Dhoni must fight for his spot. If he fights a proper battle and holds his spot, then so be it. No one can complain. Of course, it won't happen. But just for argument sake. Yes, there should be competition and if another wk batsman comes up and replaces him, that will be great for the team. But my only point is some people here don't know the value of a player and don't understand basics and think Dhoni is easily replaceable. An average of 35+ for a wicket keeper batsman is very good. Very few wk batsmen have even averaged 30 in test cricket.
sensible-indian Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Yes' date=' if another wk batsman comes up and replaces him, that will be great for the team. But my only point is some people here don't know the value of a player and don't understand basics and think Dhoni is easily replaceable. An average of 35+ for a wicket keeper batsman is very good. Very few wk batsmen have even averaged 30 in test cricket.[/quote'] It stems from the frustration of him being a poor captain who will never get removed from his spot for the foreseeable future thereby negating ALL possibility of another WK batsman to come and replace him.
vijay50 Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 It stems from the frustration of him being a poor captain who will never get removed from his spot for the foreseeable future thereby negating ALL possibility of another WK batsman to come and replace him. Yes will happen in 2015.
kubrickian Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 It stems from the frustration of him being a poor captain who will never get removed from his spot for the foreseeable future thereby negating ALL possibility of another WK batsman to come and replace him. I don't think he should be test captain either. Pujara might be a better bet. But Dhoni has been quite good as a wk batsman, despite the flaws in his technique. Batting for a keeper is more tougher than for a batsman and hence you can't compare their averages. You need to be mentally strong and have the fitness to concentrate on batting after having kept wickets for a couple of days in the field or after having kept for 150+ overs. You are more likely to make mistakes and hence your average tends to be lower than a proper batsman.
vijay50 Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 I think if Dhoni steps down as test captain, he can still make it as keeper- batsman atleast for foreseeable future.
CSK Fan Posted August 1, 2014 Author Posted August 1, 2014 Just ran a quick cricinfo stats : Average of Top Indian wicketkeepers in tests held inAus, NZ, SA, Eng, WI. Kiran More- 28.07 Nayan Mongia- 20.23 Syed Kirmani-24.81 Farokh Engineer- 32.67 Naren Tamhane-23.33 Chandrakant Pandit-14.2 Sadanand Vishwanath-did not play against any of above. MS Dhoni-29.13 So Dhoni not bad as batsman really and his average in england is 35.Only bettered by Farook Engineer as keeper-batsman in Aus, Eng, WI, SA, NZ. Please check how the average team score has increased in that period and the average wicket-keeper and or batsman average has increased all over the world. This is like comparing Rohit Sharma's ODI average currently and calling him the best ODI player of all times :cantstop: When the entire world has shown a mark improvement in the batting average of a wicket keeper batsman, we are still comparing with 1980s and being happy. No wonder the test team is going nowhere
CSK Fan Posted August 1, 2014 Author Posted August 1, 2014 glass houses and stones :angelic: For once, just once, why don't you try sticking to the topic and contribute something meaningful?
velu Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 For once' date=' just once, why don't you try sticking to the topic and contribute something meaningful?[/quote'] the day you stop whining , i will start contributing .. and forget to tell , will try to improve forum quality :giggle:
undisputed chap Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 I think it's unfair to compare his batting average to that of other batsman. It should be compared to other keepers & i think he would rank among the top 5 comfartably. We are missing the point here. Why don't we compare batting averages of our batsman to that of other batsman would they rank that high? Or why don't we compare bowling averages of our bowlers would they rank as high? We are trying to remove something which is already fine instead of trying to improve in the areas where we are pathetic.
Yoda-esque Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 I think it's unfair to compare his batting average to that of other batsman. It should be compared to other keepers & i think he would rank among the top 5 comfartably. We are missing the point here. Why don't we compare batting averages of our batsman to that of other batsman would they rank that high? Or why don't we compare bowling averages of our bowlers would they rank as high? We are trying to remove something which is already fine instead of trying to improve in the areas where we are pathetic. You are beating a dead horse
Austin 3:!6 Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Dhoni brings much more to the team than his batting. His aura, overall impact as a player over the years, his captaincy achievements and past laurels made him the greatest sporting icon in India and richest cricketer in the world. A personality like him is not easy too get rid off even though there are (not entirely sure) better WK batsman available in the country. This is pretty similar to the case of Tendulkar in his closing days. Since 2011 WC there were many many better no.4 batsmen available in the country but no one could remove Sachin due to his aura. A certain Rahane never got into playing XI even though Sachin's stumps were constantly uprooted by the likes of Boult and Southee. Pujara and Kohli couldn't make into playing XI due to a struggling VVS and Dravid. Unfortunately this process will continue as this is how cricket being run in Sub continent. MSD is not the first one and will not be last. Removal of a player of MSD/SRT stature will have a massive financial effects on BCCI's ticket sales/TV rights etc. Just curious - Can you post away test avgs of all Indian batsmen post 2011 WC? Please include the retired veterans too so that we can get a clearer picture.
cricketfan28 Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 Dhoni brings much more to the team than his batting. His aura, overall impact as a player over the years, his captaincy achievements and past laurels made him the greatest sporting icon in India and richest cricketer in the world. A personality like him is not easy too get rid off even though there are (not entirely sure) better WK batsman available in the country. This is pretty similar to the case of Tendulkar in his closing days. Since 2011 WC there were many many better no.4 batsmen available in the country but no one could remove Sachin due to his aura. A certain Rahane never got into playing XI even though Sachin's stumps were constantly uprooted by the likes of Boult and Southee. Pujara and Kohli couldn't make into playing XI due to a struggling VVS and Dravid. Unfortunately this process will continue as this is how cricket being run in Sub continent. MSD is not the first one and will not be last. Removal of a player of MSD/SRT stature will have a massive financial effects on BCCI's ticket sales/TV rights etc. Just curious - Can you post away test avgs of all Indian batsmen post 2011 WC? Please include the retired veterans too so that we can get a clearer picture. thats right we need to see this on a relative scale ...
Yoda-esque Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 Dhoni brings much more to the team than his batting. His aura, overall impact as a player over the years, his captaincy achievements and past laurels made him the greatest sporting icon in India and richest cricketer in the world. A personality like him is not easy too get rid off even though there are (not entirely sure) better WK batsman available in the country. This is pretty similar to the case of Tendulkar in his closing days. Since 2011 WC there were many many better no.4 batsmen available in the country but no one could remove Sachin due to his aura. A certain Rahane never got into playing XI even though Sachin's stumps were constantly uprooted by the likes of Boult and Southee. Pujara and Kohli couldn't make into playing XI due to a struggling VVS and Dravid. Unfortunately this process will continue as this is how cricket being run in Sub continent. MSD is not the first one and will not be last. Removal of a player of MSD/SRT stature will have a massive financial effects on BCCI's ticket sales/TV rights etc. Just curious - Can you post away test avgs of all Indian batsmen post 2011 WC? Please include the retired veterans too so that we can get a clearer picture. at the last question
vijay50 Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518953.html People expecting great things from Saha, this is what he can offer as batter.His keeping may be better.
undisputed chap Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518953.html People expecting great things from Saha, this is what he can offer as batter.His keeping may be better. Too small a sample size to judge
Raghav_12 Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518953.html People expecting great things from Saha, this is what he can offer as batter.His keeping may be better. I recall in first innings where he scored 35, he had looked more composed than Dhoni ever did an overseas test match.
sensible-indian Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518953.html People expecting great things from Saha, this is what he can offer as batter.His keeping may be better. I recall in first innings where he scored 35' date=' he had looked more composed than Dhoni ever did an overseas test match.[/quote'] Exactly. When will we stop looking past mere scorecards and judge batsman based on how they have scored those runs? Saha looked composed and comfortable. It was a very good debut.
Raghav_12 Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 Just ran a quick cricinfo stats : Average of Top Indian wicketkeepers in tests held inAus, NZ, SA, Eng, WI. Kiran More- 28.07 Nayan Mongia- 20.23 Syed Kirmani-24.81 Farokh Engineer- 32.67 Naren Tamhane-23.33 Chandrakant Pandit-14.2 Sadanand Vishwanath-did not play against any of above. MS Dhoni-29.13 So Dhoni not bad as batsman really and his average in england is 35.Only bettered by Farook Engineer as keeper-batsman in Aus, Eng, WI, SA, NZ. I would rate Kiran More's average of 28.07 much higher than Dhoni's average of 29.13. He always played very gritty innings in overseas tests and added lot of valuable runs in company of Manoj Prabhakar and Kapil Dev. He averages just 20 in India while much better outside shows he responded to demanding situations unlike Dhoni. Just wonder in away test matches how many such innings Dhoni has played taking match situation and bowling attack in account as More played here in first innings. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63564.html
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