Have India missed the boat? - CROWE

[sensible-indian]

I know Ashwin does not have the greatest record overseas but let's break it down and analyze it. 3 of the 4 test matches were played in Australia where he averaged 62. He got 9 wickets and could have bowled a lot better. But with that being said, he always came when the opposition was doing well (due to our pacers). Still could have done well but he did bowl some decent spells and trouble batsman. Murali (the greatest of spinner ever) averages 75 in Australia (5 Tests). Of course, he was under the pressure of chucking which could have mentally not allowed him to perform well but just pointing out stuff. Kumble was a flop in Australia in his first tour if I am not wrong (he later improved). He wasn't even a finger spinner (for whom Aus is the grave yard). So I don't get this logic of declaring that Ashwin would always be useless overseas and should never be tried again. Yes, he wasn't great and must be criticized for that but many Indians talk as if he stands no chance when he is actually a guy with skills who looks to improve his game. And yes, before coming to Eng, Jaddu had 9 wickets from 3 Tests overseas where 6 of them came in that Durban spin track (Robin Peterson did well too).

[Lord]

Its not just the ball turning away. If that was all Ashwin had, he would have never been successful against Lefties. The reason he is dangerous against lefties is that some of his balls go straight with the line while some turn (he knows how to control that when playing lefties). So he is attacking both edges of the bat and brings slips, lbw, bowled into the picture. This was the same reason why Moeen Ali was successful against us. He attacked both the edges of the bat (as Moores pointed out). His drift and turn (coupled with our complacency) created problems for us. You can Jaddu could do the same but he just couldn't do it well. Plus we people have almost forgotten what true spin is all about. True spin is not about the turn one gets from the pitch. Its about flight, drift and dip. What happens before the ball pitches is equally if not more important than what happens afterwards. That is one area where Jaddu is pretty average (even worse than Ashwin). Ashwin does well against lefties but not so much against righties (which he has to work on). Considering England had lefties and new faces, I feel leaving him out was a crime. Plus even if he doesn't pick up a bucket load of wickets, him and Jaddu could atleast keep the pacers fresh.

Ashwin is dangerous against lefties at home only,atleast so far.There the pitch does the job for him.He has pretty much same record vs right handers too.If he was good naturally,he'd had a better overseas record. Moeen gets more drift than him and he too has been successful against our right handers coz he makes them play all the time.I'd say a decent left hander won't be troubled much by him.Whereas right handers would be.Ofcourse there is more chance of getting hit too. One reason both Jaddu and Ashwin have been poor is also because they are used very negatively by Dhoni who just expects them to tie an end up. I do feel Ashwin should be included as he can bat well and can do a decent 5th bowler job though.But saying he'd had bowled better than Jaddu just because hes an offie is wrong imo.

[CG]

I'm talking of stock ball which turns away.most of the time batsman can leave it if its outside off.It only troubles when it turns from off stump.Ideally you want the batsman to play as much as possible which is possible if ball comes in.Even if leggie/left armer's delivery holds its line' date='the batsman would be unsure and play at it unless its too wide[/quote'] you do not understand the simple point .The away ball is dangerous at this level be it outswinger ,as it makes the one that holds it line unplayable as it creates doubts.Legspinners are diff why are u comparing them with leftarm spinners who cannot turn the ball.

[Lord]

I know Ashwin does not have the greatest record overseas but let's break it down and analyze it. 3 of the 4 test matches were played in Australia where he averaged 62. He got 9 wickets and could have bowled a lot better. But with that being said, he always came when the opposition was doing well (due to our pacers). Still could have done well but he did bowl some decent spells and trouble batsman. Murali (the greatest of spinner ever) averages 75 in Australia (5 Tests). Of course, he was under the pressure of chucking which could have mentally not allowed him to perform well but just pointing out stuff. Kumble was a flop in Australia in his first tour if I am not wrong (he later improved). He wasn't even a finger spinner (for whom Aus is the grave yard). So I don't get this logic of declaring that Ashwin would always be useless overseas and should never be tried again. Yes, he wasn't great and must be criticized for that but many Indians talk as if he stands no chance when he is actually a guy with skills who looks to improve his game. And yes, before coming to Eng, Jaddu had 9 wickets from 3 Tests overseas where 6 of them came in that Durban spin track (Robin Peterson did well too).

Peterson took 4 wickets in the match and almost all were due to big shots rather than track.He took wickets of Dhawan(great catch),Dhoni,Jaddu and Zak

[Lord]

you do not understand the simple point .The away ball is dangerous at this level be it outswinger ' date='as it makes the one that holds it line unplayable as it creates doubts.Legspinners are diff why are u comparing them with leftarm spinners who cannot turn the ball.[/quote'] Both leggies and left arm spin ball comes in to lefties,thats why its comparable. Even in seamers the ones who can seam/swing the ball into the batsmen and can bowl a straight one are dangerous too.But that is harder to do so its not comparable

[sensible-indian]

Peterson took 4 wickets in the match and almost all were due to big shots rather than track.He took wickets of Dhawan(great catch)' date='Dhoni,Jaddu and Zak[/quote'] Be that as it may, the point is that the track was a turner. In a flat or green track, its doubtful Peterson would have got even that. Ajmal got a turner in one of the SA Tests (Cape Town pitch) and he almost won Pak the game. The other 2 Tests, he was just a passive customer. Bhajji got a turner in SA (I think it was Durban too) and got 7 wickets in an innings Did you see how Jaddu was proclaimed as our overseas savior after that 6 wickets? Remove that and see. Ashwin didn't get any such tracks in his overseas tests. He did get JoBerg 5th day track (it had flattened out by then) but he had scoreboard pressure to play with and should have got atleast 1-2 wickets (no matter what). He messed up and deserved ALL the criticism he got. I don't think Jaddu is the future for us (in overseas Tests). Ashwin is. My view. He will improve.

[CG]

Both leggies and left arm spin ball comes in to lefties,thats why its comparable. Even in seamers the ones who can seam/swing the ball into the batsmen and can bowl a straight one are dangerous too.But that is harder to do so its not comparable

You are taking about odis its always the outswinger which is most difficlut to play and gets the best batsman out.Legspinners have googly and impart much more psin.Leftarm spinners ahrdly turn the ball if pitch is not helpful.Offspinners have great record against lefthanders where as leftarmspinners not so.

[Lord]

Be that as it may, the point is that the track was a turner. In a flat or green track, its doubtful Peterson would have got even that. Ajmal got a turner in one of the SA Tests (Cape Town pitch) and he almost won Pak the game. The other 2 Tests, he was just a passive customer. Bhajji got a turner in SA (I think it was Durban too) and got 7 wickets in an innings Did you see how Jaddu was proclaimed as our overseas savior after that 6 wickets? Remove that and see. Ashwin didn't get any such tracks in his overseas tests. He did get JoBerg 5th day track (it had flattened out by then) but he had scoreboard pressure to play with and should have got atleast 1-2 wickets (no matter what). He messed up and deserved ALL the criticism he got. I don't think Jaddu is the future for us (in overseas Tests). Ashwin is. My view. He will improve.

I too will give more chances to Ashwin as in the time he gets better at bowling overseas,he can contribute with bat.I don't think we have anyone who can do well overseas straightaway.We have to select one and be patient with him.Ashwin would be my choice Jaddu can be his backup and come in when hes injured etc

[vvvslaxman]

I'm not too much sure about that.Even Warne said that you want the ball to spin in to the batsmen and that he enjoyed bowling more to lefties as it brings LBW,bowled and bat pad into play whereas for away going,only catch is a realistic dismissal way. Even in this series Moeen Ali has done well vs our right handers that said Ashwin should play just for the balance imo

Jadeja is not blessed with the ball that leaves the left hand batsman. He purely relies on mistake for batsmen. It is easier,to face ball that come into you all the time. Ashwin's carrom ball is like a legspin that will come sharply into you after pitching on the rough. So he covers both. Ashwin has also bowled both left handers and right handers around them legs. But for that to happen Ashwin should be used as an attacking bowler not a holding bowler. He can introduce some doubts. In the third test for the amount of dryness he might have chipped with a wicket or two. I see where Martin Crowe comes from. If you look at overall careers Ashwin has bowled some absolute peaches to get rid of good batsmen. Most recent one was Amla wicket. So they would pick hIn ahead of anyone else regardless of few past results. In terms of skills jaddu is limited. He is no Herath. Genuine spinners drop the bowling speed drastically something that your don't see for jaddu. Yuvraj Singh > jaddu in terms of pace variation. Jaddu is an accurate , steady bowler who will always look like a bits and pieces part timer because of these things. On certain pitches against certain teams he can be lethal. Especially those pitches keeping low. If you can't drop him , drop a batsman and include Ashwin as well on a dry pitch.

[Laaloo]

Jadeja is already making 30odd runs & saving a dozen in the field also so not sure if ashwin could have contributed more. Plus we already know his bowling overseas is a joke really. Ash was walloped even in one of the tour games. So not sure why everyone here is turning him into a martyr of dhoni's tactics. He is simply not good enough now move on.

making 30 odd runs and saving a dozed in the field

[vvvslaxman]

making 30 odd runs and saving a dozed in the field Exactly. In test cricket saving few runs with fielding May not mean much like in ODIs.

[Lord]

Jadeja is not blessed with the ball that leaves the left hand batsman. He purely relies on mistake for batsmen. It is easier,to face ball that come into you all the time. Ashwin's carrom ball is like a legspin that will come sharply into you after pitching on the rough. So he covers both. Ashwin has also bowled both left handers and right handers around them legs. But for that to happen Ashwin should be used as an attacking bowler not a holding bowler. He can introduce some doubts. In the third test for the amount of dryness he might have chipped with a wicket or two. I see where Martin Crowe comes from. If you look at overall careers Ashwin has bowled some absolute peaches to get rid of good batsmen. Most recent one was Amla wicket. So they would pick hIn ahead of anyone else regardless of few past results. In terms of skills jaddu is limited. He is no Herath. Genuine spinners drop the bowling speed drastically something that your don't see for jaddu. Yuvraj Singh > jaddu in terms of pace variation. Jaddu is an accurate , steady bowler who will always look like a bits and pieces part timer because of these things. On certain pitches against certain teams he can be lethal. Especially those pitches keeping low. If you can't drop him , drop a batsman and include Ashwin as well on a dry pitch.

Jadeja turns the ball out of the rough too like Ashwin plus gets bounce due to faster speed.Even hes being used as a holding bowler,not just Ashwin.If hes used rightly,only then can we judge him. As far as peaches are concerned,I remember Jaddu bowling some in Aus series,particularly one that got Clarke.Truth is both he and Ashwin depend on pitch to aid them.Somehow that is ignored in case of Ashwin. Jaddu is no Herath but hes much younger,even Herath was a nobody at 25,but SL stuck with him.No reason we cant stick with him.Also his comparison with Yuvi is futile as hes different kind of bowler who relies on his accuracy and pace of the pitch to beat batsmen,like Kumble.Sachin had more pace variation than Kumble,means nothing.Everyone has his own style and adapts accordingly.It is hard to say only one style can work I too would include Ashwin purely on the basis of batting in the XI.Both him and Jaddu can only do 5th bowler job overseas,so makes sense to pick the better batsman in Ashwin.But Jaddu surely can be a backup