India failing to play boring cricket

[Old guy]

I think I posted that on the wrong thread. Someone made a comment about our selectors not selecting the same bowlers twice for overseas tours. I was pointing out that a lot of the bowlers that have toured Australia in the last 15 years were selected for multiple tours. Srinath, Agarkar, Zaheer, Ishant, Harbhajan, Kumble, Ashwin and now Umesh have all toured twice. My point was simply that I don't think our overseas bowling has to do with selection. I don't see how you need experience in a certain country to be able to bowl six balls in the same spot, and bowl in partnerships. It's not like those things are somehow specific to Australian conditions.

Why not u need experience ? We do not even bowl with same ball in our domestic cricket and our main bowlers struggle to swing the ball in England while have no problem swinging ball in India The length you bowl is also entirely different and there needs to be some sort of continuity otherwise everything they learn in this tour will be lost again

[bharat297]

Why not u need experience ? We do not even bowl with same ball in our domestic cricket and our main bowlers struggle to swing the ball in England while have no problem swinging ball in India The length you bowl is also entirely different and there needs to be some sort of continuity otherwise everything they learn in this tour will be lost again

The length you bowl is slightly different depending on the pitch I agree. And yes the ball itself plays a big role in the amount of swing. However, our bowlers overseas tend to bowl like this. Ball 1 - Good line and length Ball 2 - Half volley wide outside off - FOUR Ball 3 - Short of a length on the pads - Easy single Ball 4 - Bouncer Ball 5 - Half volley wide outside off again - FOUR Ball 6 - Bouncer Is there a country in the world, where that kind of bowling gets 20 wickets? Mexico perhaps? Ironically, that's not a bad T20 over nowadays. Maybe that is closer to the problem. If India were bowling good line and length but not getting swing then that's a different story. But Shami was getting the ball to move from the opening delivery, so there was definitely swing there. It was just wasted by some horrible deliveries.

[Old guy]

The length you bowl is slightly different depending on the pitch I agree. And yes the ball itself plays a big role in the amount of swing. However, our bowlers overseas tend to bowl like this. Ball 1 - Good line and length Ball 2 - Half volley wide outside off - FOUR Ball 3 - Short of a length on the pads - Easy single Ball 4 - Bouncer Ball 5 - Half volley wide outside off again - FOUR Ball 6 - Bouncer Is there a country in the world, where that kind of bowling gets 20 wickets? Mexico perhaps? Ironically, that's not a bad T20 over nowadays. Maybe that is closer to the problem. If India were bowling good line and length but not getting swing then that's a different story. But Shami was getting the ball to move from the opening delivery, so there was definitely swing there. It was just wasted by some horrible deliveries.

how do you explain shami not having problem at home at all ? at home he hits perfect length which just hits top of off stump and brings lbw and bowled in play and it happens in odis too but away from home he has always bowled much shorter / its not just case of bowling wayward that did not happen in england i did not see this game much but in england he just never found where to bowl and probablity is that he will not bowl there in next series umesh yadav did find his length in australia last series in many innings but now he is not even in team and this is the guy who was sent on a tours to prepare :giggle: sorry but there is no continuity i have said this even before english series and never understood how one guy gets ahead of another ...how all of sudden umesh is odi specialist and aaron test when year back it was opposite and yadav never played a test match again after performing reasonably well against england and getting injured ..

Ball 1 - Good line and length Ball 2 - Half volley wide outside off - FOUR Ball 3 - Short of a length on the pads - Easy single Ball 4 - Bouncer Ball 5 - Half volley wide outside off again - FOUR Ball 6 - Bouncer

this is just not accurate more than this is was just simple case against warner that i saw that they just were clueless in first session they went around the wicket to stop him from scoring which never works with some one like warner as a single lose ball which will come will lead to boundary that was jsut bad tactics and after that they bowled over the wicket and never hit perfect length and obviously there were tons of lose balls too but it is not as simple as you make it sound you know pattinson and every other australian young bowler struggled badly in england and they had to depend on siddle alone in first test and after that harris was included in team and pattinson dropped ? same thing happened with starc ..they all looked clueless where to bowl and that is totally understandable in their first tour ... now just in tests but even in odis year before that only mckay did well...alo when you play some one like aaron you can forget accuracy he is not ready for that and it was always going to back fire if he did not bowl well and worst part is he might play 2 more matches and not be included for next tour and we will find another bowler who will go through this "process " again :giggle:

[bharat297]

how do you explain shami not having problem at home at all ? at home he hits perfect length which just hits top of off stump and brings lbw and bowled in play and it happens in odis too but away from home he has always bowled much shorter / its not just case of bowling wayward that did not happen in england i did not see this game much but in england he just never found where to bowl and probablity is that he will not bowl there in next series umesh yadav did find his length in australia last series in many innings but now he is not even in team and this is the guy who was sent on a tours to prepare :giggle: sorry but there is no continuity i have said this even before english series and never understood how one guy gets ahead of another ...how all of sudden umesh is odi specialist and aaron test when year back it was opposite and yadav never played a test match again after performing reasonably well against england and getting injured .. this is just not accurate more than this is was just simple case against warner that i saw that they just were clueless in first session they went around the wicket to stop him from scoring which never works with some one like warner as a single lose ball which will come will lead to boundary that was jsut bad tactics and after that they bowled over the wicket and never hit perfect length and obviously there were tons of lose balls too but it is not as simple as you make it sound you know pattinson and every other australian young bowler struggled badly in england and they had to depend on siddle alone in first test and after that harris was included in team and pattinson dropped ? same thing happened with starc ..they all looked clueless where to bowl and that is totally understandable in their first tour ... now just in tests but even in odis year before that only mckay did well...alo when you play some one like aaron you can forget accuracy he is not ready for that and it was always going to back fire if he did not bowl well and worst part is he might play 2 more matches and not be included for next tour and we will find another bowler who will go through this "process " again :giggle:

LOL! What is your point? That it's ok to be wayward? There shouldn't be a "process" to being able to land six balls in the same spot. By the time you reach Test level, that should be standard. I honestly never thought this would lead to such an argument by Indian fans. I just posted saying that the Indian bowlers need to bowl six balls in the same spot and build up pressure. Yes pitches are different so you need to adjust your length, but only by a few yards at most! You don't need to change your line. The Indian bowlers struggled more with their lines than their lengths. Man ... As Indian fans, we tend to defend our mediocrity with such determination. If only our players had this kind of determination on the field, we might not even be having this argument.

[Old guy]

LOL! What is your point? That it's ok to be wayward? There shouldn't be a "process" to being able to land six balls in the same spot. By the time you reach Test level, that should be standard. I honestly never thought this would lead to such an argument by Indian fans. I just posted saying that the Indian bowlers need to bowl six balls in the same spot and build up pressure. Yes pitches are different so you need to adjust your length, but only by a few yards at most! You don't need to change your line. The Indian bowlers struggled more with their lines than their lengths. Man ... As Indian fans, we tend to defend our mediocrity with such determination. If only our players had this kind of determination on the field, we might not even be having this argument.

sigh ... where did i say its ok to be wayward ? i said its expected that bowler like aaron will be wayward at this stage of his career .. johnson was same ..heck there was even song he bowls to left he bowls to right ..i am sure you know the rest :winky: i am not defending anyone here and not even saying any of these bowlers are good but you come on it is what it is and this is what you get when you play young bowlers playing their first match in these conditions on flat track. aaron was never going to bowl 6 balls at a spot not right now maybe he will when he matures as bowlers but how many test matches has he played ? bhuvan is one bowler who can keep things tight and its unfortunate he got injured but all other bowlers (umesh,aaron and even shami ) are not know for keeping things tight and are obviously not good enough right now but they are still best we got and i hope they improve quickly and one way would be to have some consistency in selection . all i gave you was example that even good australian bowlers struggled to adapt to england in their first series and they had to depend on their experienced bowlers and they expected that it will take time for likes of starc ,patto to settle i think we need to cut some slack to these guys too..again i am not making excuses for anyone this is very bad situation and i honestly am tired of watching the crap and as frustrated as you but what is the solution ? i am not saying i do not want consistent bowlers who can win us matches ..all i am saying is we do not have any and this was expected from rookie bowlers ..i think consistency will come with time maybe even in this current series but i hope for future their approach in selection is more consistent and with some sort of plan which develops these guys rather than just picking and dropping them randomly ...i hope i am clearer now ..

[G_B_]

sabby just wanted mohit sharma

[Old guy]

sabby just wanted mohit sharma

no i only want you :icflove:

[rkt.india]

sabby just wanted mohit sharma

Mohit Sharma is not a bad bowler by any means. He is one of the most accurate bowler along with BK, but he lacks enough pace because he is neither tall nor he can swing the ball like BK. Mainly a seam bowler. If he was bowling at Shami's pace, I would have taken him because of his consistency.

[bharat297]

sigh ... where did i say its ok to be wayward ? i said its expected that bowler like aaron will be wayward at this stage of his career .. johnson was same ..heck there was even song he bowls to left he bowls to right ..i am sure you know the rest :winky: i am not defending anyone here and not even saying any of these bowlers are good but you come on it is what it is and this is what you get when you play young bowlers playing their first match in these conditions on flat track. aaron was never going to bowl 6 balls at a spot not right now maybe he will when he matures as bowlers but how many test matches has he played ? bhuvan is one bowler who can keep things tight and its unfortunate he got injured but all other bowlers (umesh,aaron and even shami ) are not know for keeping things tight and are obviously not good enough right now but they are still best we got and i hope they improve quickly and one way would be to have some consistency in selection . all i gave you was example that even good australian bowlers struggled to adapt to england in their first series and they had to depend on their experienced bowlers and they expected that it will take time for likes of starc ,patto to settle i think we need to cut some slack to these guys too..again i am not making excuses for anyone this is very bad situation and i honestly am tired of watching the crap and as frustrated as you but what is the solution ? i am not saying i do not want consistent bowlers who can win us matches ..all i am saying is we do not have any and this was expected from rookie bowlers ..i think consistency will come with time maybe even in this current series but i hope for future their approach in selection is more consistent and with some sort of plan which develops these guys rather than just picking and dropping them randomly ...i hope i am clearer now ..

I agree that we have young and inexperienced bowlers but I don't see how we can consistently be so bad overseas and blame the pitch. I agree that we have no option but to persist with this group but I get annoyed when I see people saying "oh it's a flat pitch so it's ok". No it's not! We bowled rubbish. Absolute rubbish. That won't work on any pitch. It could have been a green top yesterday and we still would not have done that much better. Ultimately my point is we have to learn why the aussies get wickets and we don't. They bowl line and length and hunt as a pack. I'm happy to wait for this current group. But not if we defend them by blaming the pitch.

[Old guy]

I agree that we have young and inexperienced bowlers but I don't see how we can consistently be so bad overseas and blame the pitch. I agree that we have no option but to persist with this group but I get annoyed when I see people saying "oh it's a flat pitch so it's ok". No it's not! We bowled rubbish. Absolute rubbish. That won't work on any pitch. It could have been a green top yesterday and we still would not have done that much better. Ultimately my point is we have to learn why the aussies get wickets and we don't. They bowl line and length and hunt as a pack. I'm happy to wait for this current group. But not if we defend them by blaming the pitch.

i never blamed anyone i just gave you reason why they are rubbish and steps we should take to improve it also example of other young bowlers from other countries having same problems to support my point .. i just expect these young bowlers to bowl like this specially aaron it was totally expected but what frustrates me is the improvement takes far too long and that is because we have no long term plan while selecting these bowlers and playing them ...umesh played whole series last time and was inconsistent and showed glimpse of potential but how many matches has he played since then ? same thing will happen with aaron and next series after few years we will be against discussing about not having experience .. even my first reply to you was specifically about that both zaheer and umesh who featured in every match last series are not in playing 11 ...we not only have problem of having young mediocre attack but also problem of not having consistent plan in their selection and development ..i ma still amazed that umesh only played 4 or so matches after doing reasonably well in last australian tour and now cannot even make 11 here :cantstop:

[Old guy]

also again i just telling you my opinion why our consistency is so bad ..its simply because we have not developed a single bowler in last 5 years and have to play rookies in every series with no plan and infact with wrong bowling plan (bowling around the wicket to warner :facepalm: also about australians just look at their attack 2 years ago they fielded an attack of starc,johnson and one for young bowler against south africa and they went for over 6 rpo all day ..again i am not making excuses but its simple fact that young bowlers who haven not even played 10 tests are never consistent unless their main skill is being consistent (like bhuvi ) same thing happened in england with pattinson and starc these are just example but our problem is our bowlers never gain experience or become experienced bowlers and it shows that we do not have single world class bowler developed in last 5 years ...

[putrevus]

I dont mind waywardness of these guys if they bowled enough wicket taking deliveries in between those hit me anywhere deliveries. Johnson was wayward but he also took lot of wickets before he went haywire completely in Ashes and was out of the team, heck he even won ICC player of year in 2004 or 2005 so any comparison with him is just ridiculous. These Indian bowlers are just wayward and useless,No one has that pace and hostility of Johnson even when he was starting out. The main problem with them is every one of them wants to take wicket with every ball and have no patience thus lack any consistency. All these bowlers never had to learn how to take wickets since every one of them have been fast tracked to Indian team.

[Old guy]

I dont mind waywardness of these guys if they bowled enough wicket taking deliveries in between those hit me anywhere deliveries. Johnson was wayward but he also took lot of wickets before he went haywire completely in Ashes and was out of the team, heck he even won ICC player of year in 2004 or 2005 so any comparison with him is just ridiculous. These Indian bowlers are just wayward and useless,No one has that pace and hostility of Johnson even when he was starting out. The main problem with them is every one of them wants to take wicket with every ball and have no patience thus lack any consistency. All these bowlers never had to learn how to take wickets since every one of them have been fast tracked to Indian team.

this is why i like yadav he is wayward but genuine wicket taker like johnson and i never really wanted aaron to play tests but to his credit he did ok in england also i do not agree with not knowing how to take wickets shami showed he knows how to bowl in india both with older and newer ball and showed plenty of tricks but totally agree that they look clueless here ... problem is they do not know how to bowl here othewise how can nayone explain ishant and many other bowlers averaging better on indian dead tracks than these wickets which support quicker bowlers :cantstop:

[putrevus]

Yes even our yesteryear bowlers were similar - a lot of times our quicks they bowled brilliantly at home only to completely go offtrack when they toured. Even ishant and shami whatever chances they have had am sure some of their better performances have come on our soil.

IMO comparison with yesteryear bowlers is wrong in those days Indian cricket teams never had these facilities,diets nor this stature. While I understand they are inexperienced so they have to be given some leeway but hit me for four every other ball is just too much to take and that has to do with attitude and basics. Ishant has one five wicket haul in India and he has been given innumerable chances which I don't think any other sportsmen in any sport has been given.I really feel he thinks getting one wicket/innings is doing a great job. All these youngsters know all they need is be healthy they will be in the team so they have no motivation to become better as they have seen Ishant who has been crap but healthy most of the time.

[putrevus]

this is why i like yadav he is wayward but genuine wicket taker like johnson and i never really wanted aaron to play tests but to his credit he did ok in england also i do not agree with not knowing how to take wickets shami showed he knows how to bowl in india both with older and newer ball and showed plenty of tricks but totally agree that they look clueless here ... problem is they do not know how to bowl here othewise how can nayone explain ishant and many other bowlers averaging better on indian dead tracks than these wickets which support quicker bowlers :cantstop:

How many wickets has Shami taken other than his debut test against an awful WI team and one off performance cannot be measure of anything. Hirwani took 16 wickets in his debut test we all know how great he was so it is just too small sample size. His first class average is thirty so it is not great.What are his weapons which can get him wickets consistently, He is not great exponent of swing bowling nor seam bowling.All he has going for him is his seam position which will not fetch him many wickets. I agree with you on Yadav he has been handled totally wrong coupled with his own demeanor and attitude has ruined him.He has gorgeous outswinger which if perfected will fetch him buckets of wickets since he has that extra yard of pace. Aaron also has no stock delivery so I doubt he will get many wickets but he has pace if he develops stock delivery he can get wickets. Ishant home avg is 33 compared to his overall 37 so it is not good even though he never has to do much there and picked lot of cheap wickets , again has no weapons to get consistent wickets.

[putrevus]

Yes but offset the facilities and the diets with the amount of cricket that they play - clearly its a no win situation - solutions are hard to come by agree.

I would have agreed with you on amount of cricket if they were good at any point and also this is just beginning of the season and most of these bowlers are well rested with extended break due to tragedy. Bhuvi faded during last three tests in England because he was over worked to death by Dhobi now he is facing the consequences of that overwork. Dhobi remains fine but who knows what will happen to Bhuvi. Dhobi not being captain will be boon for many of these bowlers.

[Old guy]

How many wickets has Shami taken other than his debut test against an awful WI team and one off performance cannot be measure of anything. Hirwani took 16 wickets in his debut test we all know how great he was so it is just too small sample size. His first class average is thirty so it is not great.What are his weapons which can get him wickets consistently, He is not great exponent of swing bowling nor seam bowling.All he has going for him is his seam position which will not fetch him many wickets. I agree with you on Yadav he has been handled totally wrong coupled with his own demeanor and attitude has ruined him.He has gorgeous outswinger which if perfected will fetch him buckets of wickets since he has that extra yard of pace. Aaron also has no stock delivery so I doubt he will get many wickets but he has pace if he develops stock delivery he can get wickets. Ishant home avg is 33 compared to his overall 37 so it is not good even though he never has to do much there and picked lot of cheap wickets , again has no weapons to get consistent wickets.

first class cricket includes test matches if i remember correctly shami did have good average in domestic cricket and had 2 great seasons also like i said at home he seems to pitch ball perfectly and movie new ball but his real strength is getting reverse in india that is his strength but he has not once hit that perfect line and length needed outside of india he showed lot of tricks in india specially with older ball specially his length was perfect for those tracks but he is not changing his length properly and bowling fuller here . about yadav ...what is wrong with his attitude actually ? he has played like 3-4 tests after last australian tour..was he not decent enough there to get another chance in test matches ? and i also agree with you aaron i have said it here many times that hei sn ot ready for tests but he did bowl well in england so got chance here but yadav should have been ahead of him

[bharat297]

first class cricket includes test matches if i remember correctly shami did have good average in domestic cricket and had 2 great seasons also like i said at home he seems to pitch ball perfectly and movie new ball but his real strength is getting reverse in india that is his strength but he has not once hit that perfect line and length needed outside of india he showed lot of tricks in india specially with older ball specially his length was perfect for those tracks but he is not changing his length properly and bowling fuller here . about yadav ...what is wrong with his attitude actually ? he has played like 3-4 tests after last australian tour..was he not decent enough there to get another chance in test matches ? and i also agree with you aaron i have said it here many times that hei sn ot ready for tests but he did bowl well in england so got chance here but yadav should have been ahead of him

He bowled ok in England ... I wouldn't say it was that great. The usual 3 good balls mixed with 3 bad balls stuff. I'm guessing the selectors based it off the performance in the warm up games.

[Old guy]

He bowled ok in England ... I wouldn't say it was that great. The usual 3 good balls mixed with 3 bad balls stuff. I'm guessing the selectors based it off the performance in the warm up games.

I said well not great ...good enough to keep place and some spells were brilliant

[Old guy]

Also I am talking about myself that I did not want Aaron in test team in England and wanted Yadav but he was preferred after others failed and did reasonably well and looked like only bowler who will pick wickets in last few matches so deserved a place in this match ..