What's our bowling selection criteria?

[bharat297]

Badrinath had a domestic average of 60' date=' but Yuvraj, Raina, Mooli with averages of 35-40 in domestic got selected ahead of him... It is not all about numbers.[/quote'] Well Yuvraj and Raina were failures in Test cricket. Badrinath deserved a longer run and ironically would probably have been a decent choice at No.6 now.

[bowl_out]

Well Yuvraj and Raina were failures in Test cricket. Badrinath deserved a longer run and ironically would probably have been a decent choice at No.6 now.

Badrinath was a failure too... in the limited opportunities he got in Tests and ODIs

[BeautifulGame]

Badrinath had a domestic average of 60' date=' but Yuvraj, Raina, Mooli with averages of 35-40 in domestic got selected ahead of him... It is not all about numbers.[/quote'] I think Vijay had an excellent season when selected. Scored a double hundred and straight away drafted into the XI to replace Gambhir (2008 Aus series) as Vijay was the most in form player at that moment. Yuvi and Raina are selections purely based on odi cricket .That blame rests solely on our selectors

[bowl_out]

Also the Joginder Sharma argument makes total sense... He averages a phenomenal 21.59 with the ball after 67 FC matches with a best of 8/24... And an average of 22.52 in List A... So pick Joginder ahead of Rishi Dhawan, Kulkarni, Pankaj, Aaron, Umesh and Ishant?

[rkt.india]

Dhawan and Sandeep are also Joginder type bowlers.

[bowl_out]

Yuvi and Raina are selections purely based on odi cricket .That blame rests solely on our selectors

Agree with this. The selectors take calls. It may or may not click at times.. I am a little bewildered at the fact that Cheeka did not give Badrinath an extended run... Amidst all talk of his favoritism to TN players..

[express bowling]

Also the Joginder Sharma argument makes total sense... He averages a phenomenal 21.59 with the ball after 67 FC matches with a best of 8/24... And an average of 22.52 in List A... So pick Joginder ahead of Rishi Dhawan, Kulkarni, Pankaj, Aaron, Umesh and Ishant?

Just check out the domestic averages of some of the top international players I have posted earlier in this thread in bold. Based on domestic records alone -- Joginder Sharma would be better than Kapil, Srinath and Zak. He would Infact be better than Steyn, Johnson, Donald and most top international pacers , especially if people want to argue that Joginder did this in Indian conditions. Sunil Gavaskar, with FC average of 51, would be far worse than Mukund, Rohit Sharma, Badrinath. Vinay Kumar would be better than Kapil, Zak, Srinath. Mitchell Johnson's domestic average was more than 30 a year back. He would have never had the chance to play for Australia. Brendan McCullum, Adam Gilchrist , David Gower, Gordon Greenidge, Gayle, Haynes, Boon ...all with bad to average FC averages, would have never played for their country.

[express bowling]

UG is talking about average of 37. I have problem with this. His real FC career started last year when first time he played without back injuries' date=' averaged 20. Before that his FC matches were interrupted with injuries. He played 10 matches in a span of 3 years 2008 to 2011 and was raw too. In such a sceanario, it is understandable that he couldnt do as good as he could.[/quote'] Exactly.

[Lord]

Dhawan and Sandeep are also Joginder type bowlers.

Sandeep is talented imo,gets great swing both ways though at BK's pace.Can be good for ODIs,but don't see him playing Tests unless he improves his speed

[express bowling]

Sandeep is talented imo' date='gets great swing both ways though at BK's pace.Can be good for ODIs,but don't see him playing Tests unless he improves his speed[/quote'] He is slower than BK. BK bowls 120 to 135 k. At times even upto 138 / 140 k in LOIs. Sandeep is mostly 120 to 130 k. Mostly around 124 to 127 k.

[Cricket_Hacker]

Sandeep is talented imo' date='gets great swing both ways though at BK's pace.Can be good for ODIs,but don't see him playing Tests unless he improves his speed[/quote'] Sandeep and BK playing together

[Lord]

He is slower than BK. BK bowls 120 to 135 k. At times even upto 138 / 140 k in LOIs. Sandeep is mostly 120 to 130 k. Mostly around 124 to 127 k.

still better than Joginder Sharma :beee:

[express bowling]

Sandeep is talented imo' date='gets great swing both ways though at BK's pace.Can be good for ODIs,but don't see him playing Tests unless he improves his speed[/quote'] Another thing is, BK gets a certain zip and purchase from the pitch due to his wrist action and superb seam position. So, he often hurries batsmen even at 127 k. This is a very important quality. Does Sandeep have this quality ?

[express bowling]

still better than Joginder Sharma :beee:

Much better. We have seen Joginder bowl in internationals. Absolutely no impact.

[Marut]

That may be fine but how can the guy who averages 37 at domestic level be expected to perform better at Test level? Praveen Kumar has already proven that the domestic performance does count at Test level with bowling averages in the same ballpark... http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/30732.html If we ignore our top bowling performers at domestic level how the hell will we perform better at intl level?

Domestic averages do not often get along with international averages. Indian pitches rarely reward good pacers. They are either dead flat or greenish with low bounce - so bowlers with real zip do not have any advantages over average bowlers. In fact, pace bowlers like Aaron will go for runs in India because the ball comes on nicely to the bat at knee height, and the speed of the ball can be used to dispatch it to the boundary. Bowlers like Aaron must be given the opportunity to bowl on wickets with green and bounce. That is where he will hit the deck hard and bring the ball to the batsman's waist and chest heights. If Aaron is not able to do this in India, his pace and bounce won't be rewarded on Indian pitches while lesser bowlers may be more successful just because they are more accurate. Aaron must play in every match India plays outside SC - he must be given a lot of opportunities to prove himself. If he does not improve in say, two years, then we can reevaluate him. If a mediocre bowler like Ishant with a test average of 37 can be given a seven year rope, then a unique paceman like Aaron surely deserves more chances to prove himself.

[rkt.india]

Sandeep is talented imo' date='gets great swing both ways though at BK's pace.Can be good for ODIs,but don't see him playing Tests unless he improves his speed[/quote'] Joginder was talented too. Swings the ball and hits great lengths.

[express bowling]

Domestic averages do not often get along with international averages. Indian pitches rarely reward good pacers. They are either dead flat or greenish with low bounce - so bowlers with real zip do not have any advantages over average bowlers. In fact, pace bowlers like Aaron will go for runs in India because the ball comes on nicely to the bat at knee height, and the speed of the ball can be used to dispatch it to the boundary. Bowlers like Aaron must be given the opportunity to bowl on wickets with green and bounce. That is where he will hit the deck hard and bring the ball to the batsman's waist and chest heights. If Aaron is not able to do this in India, his pace and bounce won't be rewarded on Indian pitches while lesser bowlers may be more successful just because they are more accurate. Aaron must play in every match India plays outside SC - he must be given a lot of opportunities to prove himself. If he does not improve in say, two years, then we can reevaluate him. If a mediocre bowler like Ishant with a test average of 37 can be given a seven year rope, then a unique paceman like Aaron surely deserves more chances to prove himself.

Adding to what you have said... Pitches for first class matches in India A) Are unlike either pitches for test matches played in India, Lanka AND also not like most test pitches outside the subcontinent. They are mostly quite green these days ... without much bounce. B) Plus ... we play with the SG ball which seems to offer more swing when gently floated. This results in slowish -medium pacers gently floating the ball and getting swing and seam most of the day. They end up picking wickets if they ate accurate. The fast bowlers , who don't swing as much and are somewhat less accurate, end up getting less wickets. Also, the low quality Ranji batsmen often find it difficult to handle 127 k deliveries and are regularly hurried by them. This does not happen in international cricket. There atleast 135 k + accuracy is required to hurry the batsmen somewhat . In international matches ....due to the nature of pitches and the ball used .....gently floating the ball does not produce much effect to trouble the batsmen. It becomes necessary to hit the deck hard at pace to extract life out of the pitch. That is why we need pacers like Aaron and Umesh. Also, as cricket is played with a hard ball, softening up batsmen by bowling short at their bodies is very effective ...to gain psychological advantage. That is why fast bowlers are required.

[bharat297]

Adding to what you have said... Pitches for first class matches in India A) Are unlike either pitches for test matches played in India, Lanka AND also not like most test pitches outside the subcontinent. They are mostly quite green these days ... without much bounce. B) Plus ... we play with the SG ball which seems to offer more swing when gently floated. This results in slowish -medium pacers gently floating the ball and getting swing and seam most of the day. They end up picking wickets if they ate accurate. The fast bowlers , who don't swing as much and are somewhat less accurate, end up getting less wickets. Also, the low quality Ranji batsmen often find it difficult to handle 127 k deliveries and are regularly hurried by them. This does not happen in international cricket. There atleast 135 k + accuracy is required to hurry the batsmen somewhat . In international matches ....due to the nature of pitches and the ball used .....gently floating the ball does not produce much effect to trouble the batsmen. It becomes necessary to hit the deck hard at pace to extract life out of the pitch. That is why we need pacers like Aaron and Umesh. Also, as cricket is played with a hard ball, softening up batsmen by bowling short at their bodies is very effective ...to gain psychological advantage. That is why fast bowlers are required.

100% agree. I wish something more was done in domestic cricket to produce a whole range of different pitches. That way bowlers like Aaron and Umesh get more encouragement.

[express bowling]

100% agree. I wish something more was done in domestic cricket to produce a whole range of different pitches. That way bowlers like Aaron and Umesh get more encouragement.

Exactly. Different kinds of pitches would a) Prepare our budding cricketers much better for international cricket b ) give more meaning to FC statistics c) promote more international quality type of cricket and cricketers. If we can combine this with far more stress on zonal cricket ... where the competition is much better ...we will go somewhere with our domestic structure.

[bharat297]

Badrinath was a failure too... in the limited opportunities he got in Tests and ODIs

LOL He played 2 Tests againt South Africa. In 3 innings, he scored a 50. That's a really short rope for a guy that averaged nearly 60 in FC cricket and scored over 8000 FC runs.