10 years of MS Dhoni - Debate thread

[zep1706]

Ganguly had to play him as a Wicket keeper batsman from 2001 to justify his selection.

Ha ha what a load of BS. :cantstop:

[zep1706]

Dravid was slow initially but after the 1999 WC he became one of the most important members of the ODI team. No, he did not have to keep wickets to justify his selection. He was an automatic selection.

[Austin 3:!6]

People might be ignorant but I clearly remember Dravid was ousted from the team in late 90's. You will not see Rahul Dravid in the team during the time SRT was playing desert storm innings or the Independence cup etc. I am talking about late 90's when Indian team was really weak with Sachin been the one man show. Dravid could not be a permant member on that weak batting line up where the likes of Kanitkar, Robin Singh were given preference. With the emergence of players like Sehwag, Yuvraj, Kaif etc. Dravid had to be a keeper to gain entry into the ODI team. Yes then he picked up his performance and from 2004 he merit his selection purely as a batsman.

[zep1706]

People might be ignorant but I clearly remember Dravid was ousted from the team in late 90's. You will not see Rahul Dravid in the team during the time SRT was playing desert storm innings or the Independence cup etc. I am talking about late 90's when Indian team was really weak with Sachin been the one man show. Dravid could not be a permant member on that weak batting line up where the likes of Kanitkar, Robin Singh were given preference. With the emergence of players like Sehwag, Yuvraj, Kaif etc. Dravid had to be a keeper to gain entry into the ODI team. Yes then he picked up his performance and from 2004 he merit his selection purely as a batsman.

You are the only ignorant here. Yes Dravid was dropped from ODIs early in his career but that was before he reinvented himself as an ODI player. After the 1999 WC where he was the top scorer he played continuously and the question of dropping him never came up until after the 2007 world cup. He did not need to keep wickets to retain his spot. He started keeping only from the 2003 world cup as it gave a better balance to the team.

[Austin 3:!6]

You are the only ignorant here. Yes Dravid was dropped from ODIs early in his career but that was before he reinvented himself as an ODI player. After the 1999 WC where he was the top scorer he played continuously and the question of dropping him never came up until after the 2007 world cup. He did not need to keep wickets to retain his spot. He started keeping only from the 2003 world cup as it gave a better balance to the team.

Errr...noooo. Dravid started keeping way before that in 2001. When Mongia was ousted from the team due to match fixing and experiments failed with the likes of Sameer Dighe, MSK Prasad, Ajay Ratra etc. the job was given to Dravid. He even kept in the infamous Natwest trophy final in 2002 http://www.espncricinfo.com/talk/engine/match/66292.html Infact, 2003 WC was his last assignment as a skipper. Parthiv Patel replaced him from the Australia tour right after the World Cup. As I said before by then he was already an established ODI batsman and could have played as a sole batsman in the team.

[zep1706]

Errr...noooo. Dravid started keeping way before that in 2001. When Mongia was ousted from the team due to match fixing and experiments failed with the likes of Sameer Dighe, MSK Prasad, Ajay Ratra etc. the job was given to Dravid. He even kept in the infamous Natwest trophy final in 2002 http://www.espncricinfo.com/talk/engine/match/66292.html Infact, 2003 WC was his last assignment as a skipper. Parthiv Patel replaced him from the Australia tour right after the World Cup. As I said before by then he was already an established ODI batsman and could have played as a sole batsman in the team.

Dravid started keeping regularly from the 2003 WC. Before that those were one off matches. But in any case, he never had to keep wickets to justify his selection. That is a complete lie. He kept wickets because it helped the team not because his selection was in danger at any stage. Just as I said before he cemented his position in the ODI side in 1999 and never had to worry about that again for at least 7-8 years.

[Crookbond]

People might be ignorant but I clearly remember Dravid was ousted from the team in late 90's. You will not see Rahul Dravid in the team during the time SRT was playing desert storm innings or the Independence cup etc. I am talking about late 90's when Indian team was really weak with Sachin been the one man show. Dravid could not be a permant member on that weak batting line up where the likes of Kanitkar, Robin Singh were given preference. With the emergence of players like Sehwag, Yuvraj, Kaif etc. Dravid had to be a keeper to gain entry into the ODI team. Yes then he picked up his performance and from 2004 he merit his selection purely as a batsman.

Dravid played 98 ODIs between 1999-2003 without keeping wickets.

[Crookbond]

Dravid started keeping regularly from the 2003 WC. Before that those were one off matches. But in any case' date= he never had to keep wickets to justify his selection. That is a complete lie. He kept wickets because it helped the team not because his selection was in danger at any stage. Just as I said before he cemented his position in the ODI side in 1999 and never had to worry about that again for at least 7-8 years.

Dravid regularly started keeping before the WC actually, we were testing the experiment. But yup - Dravid din't have to justify his selection by keeping wickets. This is the classic case of correlation-causation fallacy.

[Marut]

Personally I like Dravid and he was a fantastic batsman no doubt. I have followed Dravid's career right from his debut. A supremely talented test batsman but due to his low strike rate issue never a force in ODI's (in late 90's). The situation became so worse in 1998 that he was dropped from the ODI team. Even after a successful 99 WC, he was an underachiever in ODI's. Ganguly had to play him as a Wicket keeper batsman from 2001 to justify his selection. That made a turnaround though and he became a better ODI bat with much better strike rate. Dravid of 2001 - 06 was a good (not great) ODI batsman. Dravid of 1996 - 00 was rather a poor one I am afraid. Lets face if I was opposition captain playing an ODI against India at that time, I would be worried about Sachin, Ganguly, Sehwag, Yuvraj. A sight of Rahul Dravid in ODI's never a scary one.

:haha: Where did you get all this information? ODIs are not about scoring run a ball. When Dravid made his debut, a S/R of 70 wasn't bad for a batsman of his ability because he could hold up one end while the other batsmen could take risks and score runs. ODIs need team work too. India had four or five batsmen who averaged 35+ with a S/R of 85+. Dravid with his avg of 40 and S/R of 70+ fitted into this team nicely, by providing solid anchor on one side. Dravid was our most successful ODI batsman outside India - he outperformed nearly every other batsman in the team. When we played outside India, especially outside SC, the opposing captain was probably afraid of Dravid more than others, because why would you be afraid of batsmen who lose their wickets cheaply? Yuvi averaged only 29 outside Asia against good teams. Ganguly had 33, Sehwag had 30, Sachin 34 - none of these batsmen gave sleepless nights to captains outside Asia. But Dravid towered them all outside Asia against good ODI sides with 38.

[Marut]

You are the only ignorant here. Yes Dravid was dropped from ODIs early in his career but that was before he reinvented himself as an ODI player. After the 1999 WC where he was the top scorer he played continuously and the question of dropping him never came up until after the 2007 world cup. He did not need to keep wickets to retain his spot. He started keeping only from the 2003 world cup as it gave a better balance to the team.

No - Dravid started keeping in 1999. At the time of WC 2003, he had kept in at least 40 matches. In his first match as WK, Dravid scored 145 off 129 against SL at Taunton (during WC), as India piled up 373/6. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65213.html Who said Dravid did not know how to play an ODI game before 2004? Dravid was perfectly capable of playing according to the team requirements, but his technical game was highly suitable for the characteristic ODI anchor role he played. His Wicket keeper role made him the most valuable ODI player in the team, as it allowed India the luxury of playing an extra specialist batsman!!

[Gambit]

:haha: Where did you get all this information? ODIs are not about scoring run a ball. When Dravid made his debut, a S/R of 70 wasn't bad for a batsman of his ability because he could hold up one end while the other batsmen could take risks and score runs. ODIs need team work too. India had four or five batsmen who averaged 35+ with a S/R of 85+. Dravid with his avg of 40 and S/R of 70+ fitted into this team nicely, by providing solid anchor on one side. Dravid was our most successful ODI batsman outside India - he outperformed nearly every other batsman in the team. When we played outside India, especially outside SC, the opposing captain was probably afraid of Dravid more than others, because why would you be afraid of batsmen who lose their wickets cheaply? Yuvi averaged only 29 outside Asia against good teams. Ganguly had 33, Sehwag had 30, Sachin 34 - none of these batsmen gave sleepless nights to captains outside Asia. But Dravid towered them all outside Asia against good ODI sides with 38.

That's not true. Against top 8 teams outside Asia, Dravid averaged 35 with a S/R of 68 while Tendulkar averaged 37 with a S/R of 80. I don't see how Dravid 'towered' over all here.

[Number]

Larger point of Austin is true though, Dhoni as an ODI player towers anyone else( barring Sachin). Dravid isn't anywhere near him.

[velu]

That's not true. Against top 8 teams outside Asia' date=' Dravid averaged 35 with a S/R of 68 while Tendulkar averaged 37 with a S/R of 80. I don't see how Dravid 'towered' over all here.[/quote'] probably you both are looking at different set of stats :winky: he says dravid averaged arnd 38 and sachu 34 , but you r giving only 35 to dravid but 37 to sachin , obviosuly some link is missing :--D and plz dont give me infraction for stating this :vroam:

[velu]

Dhoni sets record for most stumpings in Test cricket Indian captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni broke the world record for most number of stumpings in international cricket after he effected his 134th dismissal on Day 2 of the third cricket Test against Australia at the Melbourne Cricket Ground on Saturday. He reached the landmark in his 460th innings while Sangakkara has 133 stumpings from 485 innings.

badass stumper ever

[zep1706]

No - Dravid started keeping in 1999. At the time of WC 2003, he had kept in at least 40 matches. In his first match as WK, Dravid scored 145 off 129 against SL at Taunton (during WC), as India piled up 373/6. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65213.html Who said Dravid did not know how to play an ODI game before 2004? Dravid was perfectly capable of playing according to the team requirements, but his technical game was highly suitable for the characteristic ODI anchor role he played. His Wicket keeper role made him the most valuable ODI player in the team, as it allowed India the luxury of playing an extra specialist batsman!!

I was talking about keeping regularly which he did not do until 2003.