dial_100 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 ^ So if violence is not the way to respond to that then what other way you can? Btw, I agree that there are some issues in France. But we have to learnt about patience and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhunaeh Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 One of the two groups has to stand down and in this case it will most likely have to be the muslims who are angry over what they see as disrespect to the their values. It is only the extemists who are absolute in practice of their value systems, that's why you will not see every muslim take up arms over disrespect to the prophet nor will every french citizen rub his or her freedom of expression on a muslims face, most people compromise as they have better things to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dial_100 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Why would French stand down? What have they done? Freedom of expression is a very clear law. That's why country's constitution and law is above social/personal belief systems. That's why religion should be a personal matter. If we continue to ignore the cartoons, then he becomes irrelevant. We should be relentless in ignoring such absurd stuff. Not ever look at it. Once we defeat them in their game, it is hard to imagine someone will use that to instigate others. Its like sledging. Throwing our wicket is not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sachin=GOD Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 One of the two groups has to stand down and in this case it will most likely have to be the muslims who are angry over what they see as disrespect to the their values. It is only the extemists who are absolute in practice of their value systems, that's why you will not see every muslim take up arms over disrespect to the prophet nor will every french citizen rub his or her freedom of expression on a muslims face, most people compromise as they have better things to worry about. France has no reason to stand down. The worrying thing seems to be the increasing influence of the extremists over the moderate Muslims. Also, i think the increasing Islamophobia in the western world might have something to do with moderates being attracted to what extremists are saying/doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhunaeh Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 What i meant was there is no way out of this clash of two value systems unless one of them stands down. French believe their values are absolute and the offended muslims feel quranic values are absolute. But since it is france and their system has to hold prominence, it is most likely the offended muslims who will have to stand down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I would agree with your line of thought if it were a private matter. My limited tourist experience in Paris and around tells me otherwise. Islam in Paris is an assertive*, in your face, faith. Not that there is anything wrong in that. But when you clamour to be in the public eye, there is bound to be criticism. As simple as that. No matter how tasteless/ non humourous the cartoons maybe, the killing is an unforgivable crime. Islam's street rep (or whatever is left of it) takes a bigger hit because of the killings than the cartoons. We should just leave it to Allah to punish the cartoonists, as (and if) he deems fit. I really can't recollect any specific verses where Allah delegates the punishment of cartoonists to humans. (*) By assertive I mean as the opposite of a person who is comfortably/securely Muslim. Not necessarily in an aggressive manner. PS: Welcome back Ravish. Great to have you back.:hatsoff: Are you suggesting that most if not all Muslims wearing veils and beards are not "comfortably/securely Muslim" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Who decides that these cartoons are okay but say, drawing a pic of a black man in a tree with a banana, or a long nosed Jew counting a hoard of money, is not? Where is the line drawn? What if for a Muslim those cartoons are just as bad or worse than being racist? In 2009 a journo was fired from the same mag for being 'anti semitic' So it is not 'just muslims' who want their religion to not be mocked. It is just this one issue of drawing a likeness of the Prophet... leave it alone... it is muslims who seem to be fair game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Quote Originally Posted by Vilander View Post Do you think Islam will ever allow or has already allowed its fundamental beliefs be questioned and debated and revised by muslims? Why is it so afraid of apostacy ? Why is Quoran the only message and why cant it be revised and made better? Unless this happens the future is bleak. Questioned and debated and Criticism is one thing, taking the p i s s out of is something else. Muslims are actively encouraged to think about their religion. These cartoons are designed to anger and succeeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBN Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Firstly,it is France and it is their rules. If one doesn't like it, then they can leave. This is a weak and flawed cop out logic. For instance, suppose USA passes a law to make slavery of black people legal again tomorrow. What's going to be your defence that it it their country and their rules? There's always morality and basic human values to take into consideration. Also,when you say when I go to their country, I'll follow their rules. It is not like the rule was always been in place on the ban of head coverings. It is a recent transformation. People have been living there for atleast 50-60 years and it has become their home. Also, wearing of turbans or hijabs,etc is not a trivial piece of clothing for them like a sports cap that you can take off whenever you please. It is almost like you're told all of a sudden that you are not allowed to wear any clothes to cover your upper or lower body parts and that such clothing should be kept for private and not for public display. You get the gist of what i'm trying to say here. This is pretty much what France has done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Are you suggesting that most if not all Muslims wearing veils and beards are not "comfortably/securely Muslim" ? No I'm not. I guess I didn't explain that well enough. A person can sport a beard, wear a burqa and yet be comfortably Muslim. Its not the attire that determines that. Its the demeanour in front of others determines that. For eg: If it were Ramazan, and a Muslim were offered a lunch by a colleague who is not aware. You could have two types of reactions. Simply refuse citing the fast, and carry on with work. Or start talking about the significance of the Ramazan fast, how you've been following it through out the years, how the govt should make these half days etc etc etc. The latter would be someone who is assertive about his/her religion. The former would be someone who is comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Questioned and debated and Criticism is one thing, taking the p i s s out of is something else. Muslims are actively encouraged to think about their religion. These cartoons are designed to anger and succeeded. I agree with you here. But there are always people who are going to mock us and what we hold sacrosaant. We have to develop a much thicker skin and learn to ignore nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 This is a weak and flawed cop out logic. For instance, suppose USA passes a law to make slavery of black people legal again tomorrow. What's going to be your defence that it it their country and their rules? There's always morality and basic human values to take into consideration. Also,when you say when I go to their country, I'll follow their rules. It is not like the rule was always been in place on the ban of head coverings. It is a recent transformation. People have been living there for atleast 50-60 years and it has become their home. Also, wearing of turbans or hijabs,etc is not a trivial piece of clothing for them like a sports cap that you can take off whenever you please. It is almost like you're told all of a sudden that you are not allowed to wear any clothes to cover your upper or lower body parts and that such clothing should be kept for private and not for public display. You get the gist of what i'm trying to say here. This is pretty much what France has done. Atleast it was weak logic.I see no logic here. As,we speak,there are countries which stone women, where they are not allowed to vote or drive. Are these rules acceptable,not to me. But am I the lawmaker or representative in the country, no? Yes,for me not allowing hijab or turban in public is not same as stoning women. Whether you came to France 100 years back or 2 days back is not the issue. Democratic structure work on some fundamentals and duly elected representatives have passed the law. The lawmakers have given their rationale and what they want the country to stand for. You toe the line or leave or protest. Just to give context, they have not gone around to kill everyone who wears a hijab or turban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBN Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Atleast it was weak logic.I see no logic here. As,we speak,there are countries which stone women, where they are not allowed to vote or drive. Are these rules acceptable,not to me. But am I the lawmaker or representative in the country, no? Yes,for me not allowing hijab or turban in public is not same as stoning women. Whether you came to France 100 years back or 2 days back is not the issue. Democratic structure work on some fundamentals and duly elected representatives have passed the law. The lawmakers have given their rationale and what they want the country to stand for. You toe the line or leave or protest. Just to give context, they have not gone around to kill everyone who wears a hijab or turban Despite all that, the logic here is that you advocating that turbans and hijabs should be allowed. That's the point. Therefore, what France has done is incorrect even by you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Of course. Muslims are hyper sensitive and over react. At the same time we know ANY other topic being lampooned wouldnt have been met with the kind of fury than a naked image of The Prophet. So why do it? Anyway it is not just muslims because a journo was sacked from the same mag for being anti semitic in 2009.. Inciting racial hatred... Can you imagine these cartoonists being sacked for being equally if not more offensive to Muslims.. HAHA Sent from my GT-I9100P using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Despite all that' date=' the logic here is that you advocating that turbans and hijabs should be allowed. That's the point. Therefore, what France has done is incorrect even by you.[/quote'] Yes Ofcourse. Imo, France was wrong. But I see a lot more wrong things in other parts of the world too. Their territory, their rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Who decides that these cartoons are okay but say' date= drawing a pic of a black man in a tree with a banana, or a long nosed Jew counting a hoard of money, is not? Where is the line drawn? What if for a Muslim those cartoons are just as bad or worse than being racist? In 2009 a journo was fired from the same mag for being 'anti semitic' So it is not 'just muslims' who want their religion to not be mocked. It is just this one issue of drawing a likeness of the Prophet... leave it alone... it is muslims who seem to be fair game. Difference between race and religion. We have clear laws for race. You think we should have similar laws for religion. I think not. I think all religions need to evolve and provocation and debates are necessary. Of course, this incident further reinforces that fact. They offended all religions.Did you see what they drew on Christmas ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guldozer Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 A cartoon is not the same as clothing. Yes a cartoon is infact more offensive, and the only purpose of those cartoons was to offend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sachin=GOD Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Yes a cartoon is infact more offensive' date=' and the only purpose of those cartoons was to offend.[/quote'] Let's say the aim was to offend (though I disagree with that.) even then its no justification to kill people for a cartoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guldozer Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Let's say the aim was to offend (though I disagree with that.) even then its no justification to kill people for a cartoon. Of course not. There is no question about that. But I'm arguing on France's hypocrisy on 'freedom of speech'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sachin=GOD Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 'Passing the Pencil', by Iranian cartoonist, Mana Neyestani. Exquisite artistic support. #JeSuisCharlie #JeSuisAhmed http://t.co/apUDV8ShjZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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