MCGGG Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 To be a good finisher you first need to be crap at something else. This is the post of the thread without a doubt.
MCGGG Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I am sorry, Bevan is an ordinary ODI batsman. I'd rate ME Waugh, Gilly, Hayden, Ponting, Symonds et al ahead of Bevan as ODI batsmen. That's almost the entire team Bevan palyed with. This guy would struggle to make it to the top 5 Aussie batsmen of his own era. If you are comparing Gilly to Dhoni, then i'd agree with you. I dont have to look at stats, regardless of what the numbers say, i'd admit Gilly is the better ODI bat. Bevan is not good enough. True, he certainly wouldn't average anywhere near 50 if he batted at 3, imagine what Mark Waugh or Ponting would've averaged if they batted at 6 with 60+ NOs on their record.
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 LOL! Does this guy bother to do any research ? Dhoni averages 50+ in Australia. And that counts as literally nothing ? I don't think scoring against SL in Aus would count. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Scarves Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Unfair to judge. Dhoni has the luxury of changing ODI rules and bigger bats and shorter boundaries while Bevan really had the luxury of well nothing actually. Personally for me it was Bevan since he didn't really have that power that Dhoni had, he had other means of scoring runs quickly. He did the best he could with boundaries really back, thinner bats and tougher decks.
Muloghonto Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Unfair to judge. Dhoni has the luxury of changing ODI rules and bigger bats and shorter boundaries while Bevan really had the luxury of well nothing actually. Personally for me it was Bevan since he didn't really have that power that Dhoni had, he had other means of scoring runs quickly. He did the best he could with boundaries really back, thinner bats and tougher decks. He had the luxury of the strongest odi batting lineup and a close 2nd strongest bowling lineup(after rsa). Meaning bevan chased scores that were 20-25 runs under par and a rrr that rarely touched six. Dhoni has shown himself capable of singlehandedly chasing astronomical scores, bevan never demonstrated that ability. Give him 150 runs to score in 30 overs and six.wickets in hand, he coulf do it. Anymore and it required someone else to power hit. Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2
Scarves Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 He had the luxury of the strongest odi batting lineup and a close 2nd strongest bowling lineup(after rsa). Meaning bevan chased scores that were 20-25 runs under par and a rrr that rarely touched six. Dhoni has shown himself capable of singlehandedly chasing astronomical scores, bevan never demonstrated that ability. Give him 150 runs to score in 30 overs and six.wickets in hand, he coulf do it. Anymore and it required someone else to power hit. Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2 Strongest batting lineup? Mid 90's to early 00's Australia I would not call the 'strongest' batting lineup even in Australia's ODI history or the strongest bowling lineup ever. Dhoni had so many factors in his favor like a few have stated. Not really fair to judge but I would have loved to see Bevan play with bigger bats, small boundaries, flatter decks, two balls, more fielding restrictions and other such factors that Dhoni has. It doesn't put down Dhoni because Dhoni made the most of it and you can't fault for or put him down for doing that but I think Bevan would have done great with all the factors that Dhoni has at the moment. I would put Bevan ahead of Dhoni on the basis of seeing him in worse situations than Dhoni has been in but even then it would be unfair to put one over the other.
Muloghonto Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Mid 90s to late 2000s, aussies had the strongest odi lineup in the world for batting. Mid 90s to early 2000s, it was a close 2nd in bowling lineup in the world Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 He had the luxury of the strongest odi batting lineup and a close 2nd strongest bowling lineup(after rsa). Meaning bevan chased scores that were 20-25 runs under par and a rrr that rarely touched six. Dhoni has shown himself capable of singlehandedly chasing astronomical scores, bevan never demonstrated that ability. Give him 150 runs to score in 30 overs and six.wickets in hand, he coulf do it. Anymore and it required someone else to power hit. Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2 I want you to take a look at Dhoni's match winning performances. He's done wonderfully to stay at the wicket but it's either Yuvraj or Raina who played those power hitting that you are talking about. Even in the T20 14 final Dhoni played as poor as Yuvraj but he got away with the criticism that's how blind fans are towards Dhoni. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Muloghonto Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 I want you to take a look at Dhoni's match winning performances. He's done wonderfully to stay at the wicket but it's either Yuvraj or Raina who played those power hitting that you are talking about. Even in the T20 14 final Dhoni played as poor as Yuvraj but he got away with the criticism that's how blind fans are towards Dhoni. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Err no. most of dhonis runs came before powerplay existed, most of his runs came when 1 ball was used. Dhoni is the ultimate finisher because when yuvraj and raina are going blitz mode, he plays like bevan and holds one end up, rotates strike. When its only him, he has won lots of matches blasting a 40 ball 60 mot out type of innings which bevan was not capable of Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Err no. most of dhonis runs came before powerplay existed, most of his runs came when 1 ball was used. Dhoni is the ultimate finisher because when yuvraj and raina are going blitz mode, he plays like bevan and holds one end up, rotates strike. When its only him, he has won lots of matches blasting a 40 ball 60 mot out type of innings which bevan was not capable of Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2 Can you give me some scorecards of those inns against SA, Aus in their own backyards? Where he single handedly took India home. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Gambit Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 A quick analysis of Dhoni v/s Bevan while chasing over 270+ totals will prove who is better. However, for Bevan not many lineups would have made over many 270+ totals v Australia.
Muloghonto Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Can you give me some scorecards of those inns against SA, Aus in their own backyards? Where he single handedly took India home. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk As soon as you provide one for bevan on an indian dustbowl with the ball spitting like a cobra and rrr being over 7. No double standards please. If your contention is dhoni never singlehandedly destroyed oz/rsa in their own,backyard, thats disingeneous. If he'd done that, then given his overall record, he'd blow past richards and tendulkar as the best odi batsman ever. As I said, atleast dhoni took his team singlehandedly to victory with the rrr being over 10 for more than 15 overs. True, he's not done it against the best in their,backyard. But,bevan didnt take the aussies home on his own against anyone, anywhere when the rrr crossed 6. In his own era, klusener, chris harris and ajay jadeja did that a few times. Sent from my GT-S5830D using Tapatalk 2
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 A quick analysis of Dhoni v/s Bevan while chasing over 270+ totals will prove who is better. However' date=' for Bevan not many lineups would have made over many 270+ totals v Australia.[/quote'] Not many teams have made 270+ against any bowling teams in his period. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Scarves Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Wasn't the powerplay introduced back in 2005 along with that stupid super sub rule? Dhoni only played a few months of cricket before the powerplay existed since his debut was in 2004. Bevan finished before PP actually existed. So saying that Dhoni had most of his runs before the PP existed is kind of wrong.
rkt.india Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 MSD's hitting prowess has atrophied so much that not even funny :((.ODI greatness' date='best finisher debate aside ,just have a wish as a fan, before he retires we get to see a freewheeling vintage Dhoni innings. [/quote'] He just cant hit anyting these days.
rkt.india Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Unfair to judge. Dhoni has the luxury of changing ODI rules and bigger bats and shorter boundaries while Bevan really had the luxury of well nothing actually. . Which boundaries are you talking about being shortened?
rkt.india Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Wasn't the powerplay introduced back in 2005 along with that stupid super sub rule? Dhoni only played a few months of cricket before the powerplay existed since his debut was in 2004. Bevan finished before PP actually existed. So saying that Dhoni had most of his runs before the PP existed is kind of wrong. PP does not matter to Dhoni. You will barely see Dhoni hitting in PP.
Marut Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 That's not true. Powerplays were introduced in 2005 and Dhoni debuted in 2004-05. They even had two Powerplays for quite a while too. The quality of bowling has went down and the quality of death bowling has went down even more alarmingly. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Powerplays are associated with higher scoring rate and higher rate of wickets. Power plays do not help a batman's averages they only help with strike rates.
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Best Finisher Powerplays are associated with higher scoring rate and higher rate of wickets. Power plays do not help a batman's averages they only help with strike rates. Exactly that's why most lower middle order batsmen have pretty good strike rates these days. I've no doubt that Dhoni can hit boundaries but has he done that against great bowlers? No, because he hardly played against them. So the next thing we have to see is, has he done that against good bowling sides in unfavourable conditions? No, because SA and Aus were the only decent bowling units of his era and he failed in those parts of the world. Even if you take his home and away records against both SA and Aus you'll see his average and strike rates dipping a whole 10 clicks. That's massive. Almost all his memorable inns have come either against SL, Pak and a few here and there in SC. Even if you manage to find some, mostly he would've played second fiddle to Yuvraj or Raina. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
rkt.india Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Exactly that's why most lower middle order batsmen have pretty good strike rates these days. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk But PP doesnt matter to Dhoni. He most of the time doesn't play shots in PP.
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