Vicky95 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Overpopulation is the biggest burden we have not the asset. We have 90% of our problems due to it. If we were 1/4 th of it I think we would have been better in Cricket and couple of other sports as well as economically. Agree with this.
Vicky95 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Population argument is a highly flawed argument. Barbados, a single island in the WI was capable of putting out a team that could seriously challenge a World XI at one point of time. An ATG Barbados XI will give every World XI a run for its money. And Barbados did not have any of the riches BCCI or CA had. So excellence in sports is all about gathering right people at the right place at the right point of time. If all these combinations aren't met at the same time, you will end up with mediocrity. Barbados is no where on the cricket map today because some of the conditions mentioned earlier do not hold good for this island any more. The reason India does not produce exceptional sporting talent is because 1. We are a poor nation - Every day life is a matter of matter of struggle for survival for most Indians, and in per capita income we are in the bottom fourth among world nations. Sports is a form of entertainment and luxury - and hence is not in the priority list of most Indians. Though India may have 1.2B population, not even 1% of this population is in a position to even consider sports over struggle for survival. 2. Most Indians do not play sports after their school days. Our culture promotes the idea of "job safety" and most of us do not want to risk a professional sports career over a safe government job or a relatively safe professional career. The 1.2B talent pool is a joke. In reality I doubt whether our available pool for cricket crosses 0.1M. 3. High corruption in India (among the highest in the world) means that the sporting industry is not going to be free from its influence. We were banned from participating in Winter Olympics recently for appointing corrupt officials in the Olympic committee. While China goes to the Olympics solely for collecting medals (even at the cost of abusing their own players during training) for our officials such sporting events are a good opportunity to fill their own coffers. Who cares whether India wins a medal or not, as long I become richer? Such is the attitude of sports officials of India. Same yardsticks apply to BCCI. The money allocated by the government for sports development rarely reaches the sportsmen. 4. Merit is not always rewarded in India. There is nepotism at every level of cricket in India. Top talent is sidelined on various grounds - like regional basis, religion/caste/language etc. Occasionally, real talent breaks through all the barriers, but I believe most of the talent in India gets nipped in the bud even before it gets a chance to bloom. / thread This post answers every question of the OP in an objective way. Good post.
CSK Fan Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 1, pakistanis are not as atheletic as other nationalities - true - including Indians.. India pwns Pakistan in almost every strength and athletic based sport and yet Pakistan is more athletic because a couple of bowlers has thrown a few balls fast for them. Even in cricket, from historic times their fielders run and field like lame ducks yet they are more athletic. Go figure the amazing logic.
CSK Fan Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 At what point for a country does the population cease being an asset and becomes a burden? There has to be a % of population to land/resource golden ratio
vipin Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Well, some of the points made here are very good. But lets do an honest analysis .. 50% of the people are malnourished and don't even qualify to play sports. Of that too, 30% do not attend school. Hence, no training and no platform to go on to play at the higher levels. The leftover 20 odd crore males (still 7 times australia's population) who have a decent standard of living and decent schooling, should still be good enough to do well in sports. However, this is where our poor sporting culture is to blame. How many students in India attending school really want to make a mark in sports ? Probably about 2%. Even for these leftover 4 crores, there are hardly any coaching facilities available, hardly any interschool games or tournaments, hardly any talent scouted and developed with the objective of making them career professionals in sports. The only people who give themselves a fair chance of playing sports at the international level are the ones going to very good schools in some of the major metros, or those paying big money to attend training and coaching facilities privately. Compare this with countries like Australia or the US where sports is an integral part of schooling, and almost all school going kids have an option of working towards a career in sports. Even if only 10% of them may actually be willing, the harness-able population base in US would be about 30 million kids, 4 - 5 million in Australia and going by my guesstimate 5% of 4 crores that is about 2 million in India. It is safe to say that no more than 2 million kids in India have the means, the willingness as well as the support system required to make a career in sports.
Marut Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Overpopulation is the biggest burden we have not the asset. We have 90% of our problems due to it. If we were 1/4 th of it I think we would have been better in Cricket and couple of other sports as well as economically. Yep. More people means less resources are available for each person to develop his/her talent. 80% of the population is struggling to get three meals a day and we are talking of population as our strength. :haha:
Guldozer Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 In that case, Pak should be beating SL (subcontinent team) too left right and center. Why doesn't it? To understand the demerits of your argument, let's expand the Lahori Logic to other fields as well: Ind is known for IT. Pak has similar culture so why isn't it known for IT? Now take Bollywood for example and compare that with Lollywood. Considering Pak has 1/6th of Ind's population, Pak should be able to do 1/6th of everything Ind does so in this case one big global hit for every 6 Bollywood hits. It may not be too obvious to you but the answer is that there is no relation to population or culture but it is the clusters that make the difference. Some parts of Ind have IT culture so the industry thrives there. Bollywood is clustered around Mumbai. Giving more examples on clusters - take Hollywood for e.g., would you say NYC has more population than LA so why NYC does not make that many films as Hollywood. Similar thing can be said about HK for Chinese films. Now take watches for example, Switzerland is known for watches and other precision instruments. Germany and France have similar culture but more population than French speaking Swiss and German speaking Swiss, would you say why Germany and France combined are not known for high-quality watches as Switzerland is. So instead of looking at population, look at clusters. Taking about cricket, in subcon, Pak is a big cluster, Colombo is a key cluster as well, while in Ind it is mainly Mumbai (you can look at the historical record of Ranji winners. Mumbai has won 50% of Ranji Trophies iirc) If you understand what's written in this post, it should answer your question and expose demerits of the Lahori Logic. On why such logic is termed as Lahori? Because Lahore is the cluster which produces such logic :icflove: You can't compare movies or watches with cricket. A person is 9/10 times born with the talent to play cricket, but no one is born to make watches or movies, those are things you have to be trained for and the system plays a big part in it. India is the size of 6 Pakistans. But if you split India into 6 different countries none of those teams would be able to beat Pakistan. It's simple statistics, the more people you have, the more likely you are to produce good players. In fact, let's just compare the 'clusters'. Mumbai has a population of 12 million, how many good bowlers have they produced? Then look at Lahore which has 5 million people and look how many bowlers they have produced. So tell me, why is that?
Guldozer Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Population argument is a highly flawed argument. Barbados, a single island in the WI was capable of putting out a team that could seriously challenge a World XI at one point of time. An ATG Barbados XI will give every World XI a run for its money. And Barbados did not have any of the riches BCCI or CA had. So excellence in sports is all about gathering right people at the right place at the right point of time. If all these combinations aren't met at the same time, you will end up with mediocrity. Barbados is no where on the cricket map today because some of the conditions mentioned earlier do not hold good for this island any more. The reason India does not produce exceptional sporting talent is because 1. We are a poor nation - Every day life is a matter of matter of struggle for survival for most Indians, and in per capita income we are in the bottom fourth among world nations. Sports is a form of entertainment and luxury - and hence is not in the priority list of most Indians. Though India may have 1.2B population, not even 1% of this population is in a position to even consider sports over struggle for survival. 2. Most Indians do not play sports after their school days. Our culture promotes the idea of "job safety" and most of us do not want to risk a professional sports career over a safe government job or a relatively safe professional career. The 1.2B talent pool is a joke. In reality I doubt whether our available pool for cricket crosses 0.1M. 3. High corruption in India (among the highest in the world) means that the sporting industry is not going to be free from its influence. We were banned from participating in Winter Olympics recently for appointing corrupt officials in the Olympic committee. While China goes to the Olympics solely for collecting medals (even at the cost of abusing their own players during training) for our officials such sporting events are a good opportunity to fill their own coffers. Who cares whether India wins a medal or not, as long I become richer? Such is the attitude of sports officials of India. Same yardsticks apply to BCCI. The money allocated by the government for sports development rarely reaches the sportsmen. 4. Merit is not always rewarded in India. There is nepotism at every level of cricket in India. Top talent is sidelined on various grounds - like regional basis, religion/caste/language etc. Occasionally, real talent breaks through all the barriers, but I believe most of the talent in India gets nipped in the bud even before it gets a chance to bloom. Things are not too different with the rest of Asia though. Agreed that it is difficult to compare with the rest of the world but India should have a massive advantage over Sri Lanka and Pakistan.
Guldozer Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 :hatsoff: illusory correlation in layman terms...such a detailed explanation. There is too-much hate in there to reason in that one...so wont help much. Too much hate? Coming from the guy who has never said anything good about Pakistan in his entire life? Ironic.
Clarke Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Oh $h1t, not the population argument again. Shouldn't Australia & NZ be Pakistan's bi@tch based on the same theory ? Not just cricket, every freakin sport where the green land ends up with anda one olympic games after another. It goes into the lahori logic hall of fame just like the water car. I've come to regard most padosis as mathematically challenged based on their arguments.
zen Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 You can't compare movies or watches with cricket. A person is 9/10 times born with the talent to play cricket, but no one is born to make watches or movies, those are things you have to be trained for and the system plays a big part in it. India is the size of 6 Pakistans. But if you split India into 6 different countries none of those teams would be able to beat Pakistan. It's simple statistics, the more people you have, the more likely you are to produce good players. In fact, let's just compare the 'clusters'. Mumbai has a population of 12 million, how many good bowlers have they produced? Then look at Lahore which has 5 million people and look how many bowlers they have produced. So tell me, why is that? ^ Is that a serious post? And you expect ppl to reply to it as if you have brought some greats points to the table :haha: Before you want to talk on such topics, I suggest that you refresh yourself on subjects such as "laws of diminishing returns" In my last post I explained by giving various examples including that of Colombo, and you are still asking the same things in a different way!
Crookbond Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Oh , not the population argument again. Shouldn't Australia & NZ be Pakistan's bi@tch based on the same theory ? Not just cricket, every freakin sport where the green land ends up with anda one olympic games after another. It goes into the lahori logic hall of fame just like the water car. I've come to regard most padosis as mathematically challenged based on their arguments. These common tropes should just be made a thread and stickied. EVERY few months there will be someone who gives this naive and stupid argument. People should just learn something simple called the central limit theorem. But, I don't think that's going to happen so may be we need to come up with ridiculous counter examples to get across the point.
Marut Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Things are not too different with the rest of Asia though. Agreed that it is difficult to compare with the rest of the world but India should have a massive advantage over Sri Lanka and Pakistan. Bigger the country, tougher it is to spot talent. Especially when the infrastructure is corrupt and inefficient. There are many countries in the world whose per capita Olympic medal's tally is higher than the US. Check - http://www.medalspercapita.com/ US is only at the 21st place even with many imported athletes, just because it is a big country it cannot compete with similar developed nations in terms of output. Law of diminishing returns applies to all walks of life. A start up company (Srilanka) may have an annual profit of 200% but big companies (India) struggle to register handsome profit margins.
Marut Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 You can't compare movies or watches with cricket. A person is 9/10 times born with the talent to play cricket, but no one is born to make watches or movies, those are things you have to be trained for and the system plays a big part in it. India is the size of 6 Pakistans. But if you split India into 6 different countries none of those teams would be able to beat Pakistan. It's simple statistics, the more people you have, the more likely you are to produce good players. In fact, let's just compare the 'clusters'. Mumbai has a population of 12 million, how many good bowlers have they produced? Then look at Lahore which has 5 million people and look how many bowlers they have produced. So tell me, why is that? If Pakistan is so full of natural talent why not explain why India is so far ahead in the SAF games? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asian_Games Just because you have a couple of better bowlers does not mean you have anything superior to India overall.
termination Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 If population matters than how come jamaica does far better than south asian nations in olympics put together. There is lack of facilities for sports other than cricket.With one of the lowest per capita open spaces you expect to produce world class athletes. Millions are malnutrition and under-nourished.In the cities people are getting fat because of eating junk food from mcdonalds,kfc and the likes.These factors make people less fit. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indias-eating-habits-may-have-changed-but-not-nutrition-levels/articleshow/45655606.cms India’s eating habits may have changed, but not nutrition levels
Vilander Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 India pwns Pakistan in almost every strength and athletic based sport and yet Pakistan is more athletic because a couple of bowlers has thrown a few balls fast for them. Even in cricket' date=' from historic times their fielders run and field like lame ducks yet they are more athletic. Go figure the amazing logic.[/quote'] Well yeah true that, thats called lahori ass clown logic.
Vilander Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Too much hate? Coming from the guy who has never said anything good about Pakistan in his entire life? Ironic. I dont hate pakistan !, i just call it what it is. scum for the most part, there is always some collateral good.
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