beetle Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 Some of the blame lies with the culture where men have no problems having sex before marriage by any means but want to marry virgin girl selected by mummyji. If a guy talks of marriage and makes wedding plans to have sex with some one and goes back to mummyji for a virgin girl,then he knows that he can be charged with rape.That is the law and every one knows it.. Boys should be clear to the girl that they will not marry and girls should be smart to not consent or clearly warn that they will come after him if he refuses to marry.sab kuch saff saff bata do.
Captain Posted July 16, 2015 Posted July 16, 2015 Some of the blame lies with the culture where men have no problems having sex before marriage by any means but want to marry virgin girl selected by mummyji. If a guy talks of marriage and makes wedding plans to have sex with some one and goes back to mummyji for a virgin girl,then he knows that he can be charged with rape.That is the law and every one knows it.. Boys should be clear to the girl that they will not marry and girls should be smart to not consent or clearly warn that they will come after him if he refuses to marry.sab kuch saff saff bata do. I can understand where you are coming from.And yes there are hypocrites among men who have double standards when it comes to having pre marital sex. But,how does consensual sex turn into "Rape" once marriage goes out of the box?May be a new term should be used for it but in no way can the word "Rape" be used for it and it's disgusting that such a law exists.You have pointed out men who have double standards what about women who use this law as a tool to blackmail a guy into marriage? What if a guy wants to break up with his girlfriend but his girlfriend resorts to threatening him? Now turn the situation around,what if a girl has a physical relationship with her boyfriend and then dumps him and goes on to marry a rich guy selected by Daddyji? Can the guy file a case against her? NO! It's a disgusting law that's sexist towards men.
Raghav_12 Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Lol.. "Culture" is being offered as the excuse to defend such people who go against very same "culture" by going for pre-marital relationships. This defense of culture is hogwash just to take focus from main issue of false rapes (which seems to happen more than actual rape). 1. Any person who feel cultural pressure will not further publisize a consensual act as rape by going to the court. 2. Is there any stat to suggest that for how many of such "rape"-victims, it was first time? If it was not first time, bringing virginity (or loss of) is argument just to divert attention. From memory I recall that there are examples where such cases were filed by women who were married earlier or was in long relationships. This is just a propped up hollow argument to defend culprits. Filing of "false rape" case is female version of Acid attacks where person who got dumped not able to accept it and goes to any length to take revenge.
moniker Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Some of the blame lies with the culture where men have no problems having sex before marriage by any means but want to marry virgin girl selected by mummyji. If a guy talks of marriage and makes wedding plans to have sex with some one and goes back to mummyji for a virgin girl,then he knows that he can be charged with rape.That is the law and every one knows it.. Boys should be clear to the girl that they will not marry and girls should be smart to not consent or clearly warn that they will come after him if he refuses to marry.sab kuch saff saff bata do. But what if the man truly wanted to marry the girl when they had sex but later had a fallout due to differences between them? Would you call that rape as well? The point is it is difficult to know if the man was genuinely looking to marry the girl when they are getting intimate. And it's unfair to think of sex as a contract for marriage. People change minds all the time for various reasons. Awareness should be raised to discourage such disgusting cultural practises where virgin brides are desired by non-virgin guys. This particular law will just force such men to marry the girl against their will to escape prosecution. It wouldn't bode well for either of the couple.
rkt.india Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 But what if the man truly wanted to marry the girl when they had sex but later had a fallout due to differences between them? Would you call that rape as well? The point is it is difficult to know if the man was genuinely looking to marry the girl when they are getting intimate. And it's unfair to think of sex as a contract for marriage. People change minds all the time for various reasons. Awareness should be raised to discourage such disgusting cultural practises where virgin brides are desired by non-virgin guys. This particular law will just force such men to marry the girl against their will to escape prosecution. It wouldn't bode well for either of the couple. Do people check if someone is virgin or not before marrying?
beetle Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 I can understand where you are coming from.And yes there are hypocrites among men who have double standards when it comes to having pre marital sex. But,how does consensual sex turn into "Rape" once marriage goes out of the box?May be a new term should be used for it but in no way can the word "Rape" be used for it and it's disgusting that such a law exists.You have pointed out men who have double standards what about women who use this law as a tool to blackmail a guy into marriage? What if a guy wants to break up with his girlfriend but his girlfriend resorts to threatening him? Now turn the situation around,what if a girl has a physical relationship with her boyfriend and then dumps him and goes on to marry a rich guy selected by Daddyji? Can the guy file a case against her? NO! It's a disgusting law that's sexist towards men. This happens because the law provides for it .Sex with the promise of marriage amounts to rape under the Indian law. Probably made considering the double standards in the society with regard to sex .A guy can have sex ,make it public too but he is not considered 'spoilt'. His place in society remains same ,so does his prospect of marriage.A girl in similar situation is termed as a '****' ,society looks down on her and her marriage prospects become grim. Hence the law to make sure guys don't misuse the trust . Most girls in rural or semi urban areas do assume marriage is on the cards if they become intimate. These girls are also the ones who suffer the most if the guys backs down. If the guy in this social strata wants to break up,he should do it before getting intimate with the girl. As for girls marrying papaji ki choice ka ladka....the difference here is that the guy is neither looked down upon nor does he suffer long term consequences. Heart break is all he suffers. Personally,I think it is pretty stupid to want to marry a jerk who goes back on his words.Why do these stupid girls want to spend their life with some one who doesn't want to marry ? What can you say...there are enough people who choose to stay in abusive marriages even thoughthey may have a choice to leave. It's a disgusting law that's sexist towards men. True. Same as the disgusting society that is sexist towards women. Law is used only in some cases.Society is sexist in most cases.
Raghav_12 Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 This happens because the law provides for it .Sex with the promise of marriage amounts to rape under the Indian law. Probably made considering the double standards in the society with regard to sex .A guy can have sex ,make it public too but he is not considered 'spoilt'. His place in society remains same ,so does his prospect of marriage.A girl in similar situation is termed as a '****' ,society looks down on her and her marriage prospects become grim. Hence the law to make sure guys don't misuse the trust . Most girls in rural or semi urban areas do assume marriage is on the cards if they become intimate. These girls are also the ones who suffer the most if the guys backs down. If the guy in this social strata wants to break up,he should do it before getting intimate with the girl. As for girls marrying papaji ki choice ka ladka....the difference here is that the guy is neither looked down upon nor does he suffer long term consequences. Heart break is all he suffers. Personally,I think it is pretty stupid to want to marry a jerk who goes back on his words.Why do these stupid girls want to spend their life with some one who doesn't want to marry ? What can you say...there are enough people who choose to stay in abusive marriages even thoughthey may have a choice to leave. True. Same as the disgusting society that is sexist towards women. Law is used only in some cases.Society is sexist in most cases. This report of 72% false rape cases is for Mumbai, which is neither Rural nor semi-urban area. It is as metro as they can become.
Captain Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 This happens because the law provides for it .Sex with the promise of marriage amounts to rape under the Indian law. Probably made considering the double standards in the society with regard to sex .A guy can have sex ,make it public too but he is not considered 'spoilt'. His place in society remains same ,so does his prospect of marriage.A girl in similar situation is termed as a '****' ,society looks down on her and her marriage prospects become grim. Hence the law to make sure guys don't misuse the trust . Most girls in rural or semi urban areas do assume marriage is on the cards if they become intimate. These girls are also the ones who suffer the most if the guys backs down. If the guy in this social strata wants to break up,he should do it before getting intimate with the girl. This thread was about Mumbai,not a rural or semi urban area.So,almost every single argument of yours in the above post doesn't hold.There are so many things that can stop a relationship from reaching the stage of marriage and it's stupid to punish men for this. Also,just because Indian law provides for it,doesn't make it "Rape". As for girls marrying papaji ki choice ka ladka....the difference here is that the guy is neither looked down upon nor does he suffer long term consequences. Heart break is all he suffers. Personally,I think it is pretty stupid to want to marry a jerk who goes back on his words.Why do these stupid girls want to spend their life with some one who doesn't want to marry ? What can you say...there are enough people who choose to stay in abusive marriages even thoughthey may have a choice to leave. So,let's suppose a guy has a physical relationship with a rural girl and then things don't work out between them and the guy never had bad intentions but their relationship doesn't result in marriage,what exactly is the guy supposed to do? So now he's a rapist? There are so many flaws in this law and no wonder empowered women in urban areas use it for extortion. You can't make laws that aid only a particular sex. True. Same as the disgusting society that is sexist towards women. Law is used only in some cases.Society is sexist in most cases. So,yeah since the society is sexist towards women in some cases,let's encourage sexist laws like these and women get an equal footing right? Can't say i'm surprised,have seen these kind of arguments from way too many people.Are you alos disgusted by all the perks that society provides to women?
beetle Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 This report of 72% false rape cases is for Mumbai' date=' which is neither Rural nor semi-urban area. It is as metro as they can become.[/quote'] Society is same. Boys should also be more careful and keep their pants on if they are not sure about the girl.....check with her if she is okay with 'no marriage on the cards 'sex.A majority of these guys won't get laid if they did that. Or better still get a signed declaration by the girl. Have control till then.After all,the law is not in their favor. Or fight to change the law.
Raghav_12 Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Society is same. Boys should also be more careful and keep their pants on if they are not sure about the girl.....check with her if she is okay with 'no marriage on the cards 'sex.A majority of these guys won't get laid if they did that. Or better still get a signed declaration by the girl. Have control till then.After all,the law is not in their favor. Or fight to change the law. You yourself used rural/semi-urban societies that's why I pointed out we talking about Mumbai. Now you are changing your own argument. On, second point it is typical victim mentality that is increasingly used by feminists to derive benefits. By put onus on boys to give this disclaimer? Why don't put onus on females to get this declaration from boys that they'll marry them after all they are one who going to "suffer". Let us see how many of them are able to produce such declarations. These cases are nothing but revenge attacks of dumped people. Should bve categorised with other cases of revenge attacks. Advice for guys is to avoid any kind of live-in or such relationships. If trapped in these cases, simply marry and then file for divorce. In that case they'll have to face only 498a but will be able to ditch rape charges.
beetle Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 You can't make laws that aid only a particular sex. Why do you guys have no problems with society discriminating with these girls? Why no problems with hypocrites who want to get laid but want virgin wives. The law reflects the society and tries to protect the weaker parties in the society. We have laws different from US because our society and problems are different. We have dowry deaths so we have the extreme anti dowry laws. We have a patriarchal society that oppresses women ,hence laws like these that try to give protection to girls who may consent to physical relations because marriage in such relations is generally assumed,because they are the ones who suffer the most if the guy backs down. So,let's suppose a guy has a physical relationship with a rural girl and then things don't work out between them and the guy never had bad intentions but their relationship doesn't result in marriage,what exactly is the guy supposed to do? When the consequences for the girl are so huge,then he should not take intimacy lightly. Don't get intimate if he is not sure things will work out 100%.This should be for both parties,but the consequences for girl are not the same and the law is not the same. If he backs down,the girl suffers . She tries to force marriage to save face. In this country,even in some real rape cases ,the courts try to get the victim marry the rapist. The society is that effed up. The society needs to change before draconian laws can be changed.
Captain Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Why do you guys have no problems with society discriminating with these girls? Why no problems with hypocrites who want to get laid but want virgin wives. The law reflects the society and tries to protect the weaker parties in the society. We have laws different from US because our society and problems are different. We have dowry deaths so we have the extreme anti dowry laws. We have a patriarchal society that oppresses women ,hence laws like these that try to give protection to girls who may consent to physical relations because marriage in such relations is generally assumed,because they are the ones who suffer the most if the guy backs down. I do have a problem with society discriminating with girls and the hypocrites who want to get laid before marriage and expect virgin wives.But,gender biased laws aren't the solution to change this situation.The only thing these biased laws are good at is creating a gender war. For every dowry death there are cases of men committing suicide due to 498 A abuse by women.We have patriarchal society that oppresses women???? I'm sorry it was true some years ago and that isn't the case right now at least in urban areas. We also have the same society that supports special privileges for women in the name of reservations in every field. When the consequences for the girl are so huge,then he should not take intimacy lightly. Don't get intimate if things he is not sure things will work out 100%.This should be for both parties,but the consequences for girl are not the same and the law is not the same. If he backs down,the girl suffers . She tries to force marriage to save face. In this country,even in some real rape cases ,the courts try to get the victim marry the rapist. The society is that effed up. The society needs to change before draconian laws can be changed. This is such a flawed logic.There are 100 things that could go wrong after getting intimate,you can't simply punish men for that. So,to save the face of rural women it's totally ok to supports a law that makes a man a rapist though he's done nothing wrong?Ludicrous stuff!
rkt.india Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Why do you guys have no problems with society discriminating with these girls? Why no problems with hypocrites who want to get laid but want virgin wives. The law reflects the society and tries to protect the weaker parties in the society. We have laws different from US because our society and problems are different. We have dowry deaths so we have the extreme anti dowry laws. We have a patriarchal society that oppresses women ,hence laws like these that try to give protection to girls who may consent to physical relations because marriage in such relations is generally assumed,because they are the ones who suffer the most if the guy backs down. When the consequences for the girl are so huge,then he should not take intimacy lightly. Don't get intimate if he is not sure things will work out 100%.This should be for both parties,but the consequences for girl are not the same and the law is not the same. If he backs down,the girl suffers . She tries to force marriage to save face. In this country,even in some real rape cases ,the courts try to get the victim marry the rapist. The society is that effed up. The society needs to change before draconian laws can be changed. Simple question. Can girl not think for themselves or are they deprived of brain? If they are so concerned about it why do they make such relations. There is no guarantee of even life and they made intimate relations just because someone made the promise. Problem is girl also wanted sex but needed the promise of marriage to not feel guilty about it.
Captain Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 You yourself used rural/semi-urban societies that's why I pointed out we talking about Mumbai. Now you are changing your own argument. On, second point it is typical victim mentality that is increasingly used by feminists to derive benefits. By put onus on boys to give this disclaimer? Why don't put onus on females to get this declaration from boys that they'll marry them after all they are one who going to "suffer". Let us see how many of them are able to produce such declarations. These cases are nothing but revenge attacks of dumped people. Should bve categorised with other cases of revenge attacks. Advice for guys is to avoid any kind of live-in or such relationships. If trapped in these cases, simply marry and then file for divorce. In that case they'll have to face only 498a but will be able to ditch rape charges. Exactly! They paint women as if they aren't capable of making their own decisions.Most feminists never want to take responsibility for their own actions and always seem to play the victim card when things don't work out how they want it to.
Tiger80 Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 In this country,even in some real rape cases ,the courts try to get the victim marry the rapist. The society is that effed up. The society needs to change before draconian laws can be changed. Our society discrminate lot against Muslims , dalits , tribals etc and god knows . Why not give each of them draconian laws . If a hindu refuse a job to muslim then muslim should have right to throw that Hindu in jail . Will this work for you? Society is the creation of thousands of years of civilization there are no quick fixes . Also if girl's reputation is so much at stake then why there is an attempt to create liberal society and free intermixing of genders. Society is harsh on girls and law is harsh on boys lets segreate them . No co ed school , college no inter mixing , just marry according to mummy papa wishes
Clarke Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Watched the movie "the judge" some days back, this quote struck me: Judge Joseph Palmer: "You're standing in one of the last great cathedrals in this country, built on the premise that you and you alone are responsible for the consequences of your actions. Do you have anything else to say for yourself?" :hatsoff:
Raghav_12 Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Take this case. Victim was a divorcee and then goes on to file this kind of "rape" case. Man freed of charge of raping divorcee on marriage pretext http://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/man-freed-of-charge-of-raping-divorcee-on-marriage-pretext-114110400733_1.html From where virginity thing comes in picture which is tried to put as the defense by feminists? They typically take example of one society to justify actions of other society. Here too, example of rural and semiurban society is being used to defend actions of urban society. I know talking of isolated examples is not good debate but from my memory I hardly recall any case where victim of such rape case was seemingly an innocent, rural or uneducated woman.
Tiger80 Posted July 17, 2015 Author Posted July 17, 2015 45 साल की महिला का 14 साल के लड़के पर आरोप- यही मेरे बच्चे का पिता http://m.bhaskar.com/news-ht/referer/521/MP-JBL-OMC-45-year-old-woman-claims-minor-tribal-boy-has-fathered-her-child-5055479-NOR.html?referrer_url=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F The woman has even registered a case that boy and police is even investigating the matter
beetle Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 The woman has even registered a case that boy and police is even investigating the matter Should be in jail for pedophilia if consensual.
Desi Cartman Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Stupid laws are being created to overcome pathetic believes of the society and its not helping anybody. First thing that courts can really do is to make sure that when an injured woman goes to a thana, they should file a report, take action and make sure that the culprit is punished. Same goes for a guy walking into a thana for the same reason. Even after decades of independence, I dont think many Indians get justice for this basic crime.
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