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The BSE/NSE Trading Thread

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9 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

Is it necessary to hold a demat account for SGB. I ask this because I'm new to diversification. I'm thinking its for the bond to be tradable in the stock exchange right. I only have SB and FD never traded in my life. Having lived in the US for a while, I know the US stock exchange is a ponzi scheme. How do you think India is in that regard.

Coming back to gold prices, it was 4000+ in 2000. In the last 20 years, it has improved considerably. Only in 90s and 2012-18 it remained stagnant or went down. I'm not concerned about the short term ups and downs (short term in the sense 1 or 2 years). I'm concerned about long term stagnation. Like you I hope it will give good returns.

Good point about war time or economic failure. I'm not completely sold on this govts economic policy. Seems like they relied on the majority dissatisfaction with the cong regime to win votes and failed to do actual progress on the economic front. I'm also thinking about having physical gold and store in a locker (in addition to SGB) which I can increment every time. I heard they issue gold coins in the banks which if its available, I'm planning to buy each year.

RBI SGB bond is done in 6 batches; 4 are already done. Now the next batch of application will be 3 August 2020 to 6 August 2020 followed by next batch  of 31 August 2020 to 4 September 2020. 

 

I don't think it is necessary to hold a Demat account as while booking it gave me two options. You can hold SGB in physical form (it might take long time to get certificate/bond on your dispatch address) or in "Demat form". I prefer Demat form as it is easy for me to track the value of investment in Gold in same place as that to Stocks and Mutual Funds. A consolidated view of all investments in various asset classes in a single window.

Guess one can sell it on stock exchange post 5 years. However, i think for that it has to be converted to demat form if you are holding it as "Physical Bond". The option to give it as gift is also there which will involve further process.

 

Indian government investment schemes are very good, reliable and safe be it PPF, Kisan Vikas Patra, Senior Citizens scheme etc or India Post bank. The only issue is one has to visit the local  "Post Office" . This SGB is issues by RBI so it's safe. 

 

If you are referring to NSE or BSE, there are scams at times by broking houses. Having said that there are reputed stock brokers (especially full fledged banks) who can be trusted more not to close shops or get involved in scams as a flag off in malpractices in broking or a scam also affects there banking vertical negatively. Although SEBI having done a lot of improvement in designing, monitoring and improving framework, there is far more to do. Gitanjali Gems was allowed raise a "FPO" even after it was warned or suspected of governance issues a couple of years back...we all know what happened with Gitanjali Gems and the investors in that stock are duped. SEBI could have easily avoided that as it was a flagged issue already. That is one example of why i say SEBI still needs tremendous improvement.

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7 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

RBI SGB bond is done in 6 batches; 4 are already done. Now the next batch of application will be 3 August 2020 to 6 August 2020 followed by next batch  of 31 August 2020 to 4 September 2020. 

 

I don't think it is necessary to hold a Demat account as while booking it gave me two options. You can hold SGB in physical form (it might take long time to get certificate/bond on your dispatch address) or in "Demat form". I prefer Demat form as it is easy for me to track the value of investment in Gold in same place as that to Stocks and Mutual Funds. A consolidated view of all investments in various asset classes in a single window.

Guess one can sell it on stock exchange post 5 years. However, i think for that it has to be converted to demat form if you are holding it as "Physical Bond". The option to give it as gift is also there which will involve further process.

 

Indian government investment schemes are very good, reliable and safe be it PPF, Kisan Vikas Patra, Senior Citizens scheme etc or India Post bank. The only issue is one has to visit the local  "Post Office" . This SGB is issues by RBI so it's safe. 

 

If you are referring to NSE or BSE, there are scams at times by broking houses. Having said that there are reputed stock brokers (especially full fledged banks) who can be trusted more not to close shops or get involved in scams as a flag off in malpractices in broking or a scam also affects there banking vertical negatively. Although SEBI having done a lot of improvement in designing, monitoring and improving framework, there is far more to do. Gitanjali Gems was allowed raise a "FPO" even after it was warned or suspected of governance issues a couple of years back...we all know what happened with Gitanjali Gems and the investors in that stock are duped. SEBI could have easily avoided that as it was a flagged issue already. That is one example of why i say SEBI still needs tremendous improvement.

But even if the SGB in form takes a long time to arrive, you said the pdf will be sent to your email immediately right? Hvae to look at government investment schemes. Interesting stuff

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29 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

But even if the SGB in form takes a long time to arrive, you said the pdf will be sent to your email immediately right? Hvae to look at government investment schemes. Interesting stuff

Yes,  I received the "Confirmation Receipt" on the same day later in night.

 

The Bond may actually be different than the "Confirmation Receipt" which has all relevant details regarding the SGB. So far I have only received that and the holding is seen with latest value of gold in demat account.  It is now alloted to me so I think that's all in my case. But if someone is opting for physical bond then the paper may have the watermark of Bond and the proper certificate like look.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

Yes,  I received the "Confirmation Receipt" on the same day later in night.

 

The Bond may actually be different than the "Confirmation Receipt" which has all relevant details regarding the SGB. So far I have only received that and the holding is seen with latest value of gold in demat account.  It is now alloted to me so I think that's all in my case. But if someone is opting for physical bond then the paper may have the watermark of Bond and the proper certificate like look.

 

 

Thank you sir. Good info. Appreciate it. :two_thumbs_up:

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@velu

 

What is the best option for having a secondary Demat + trading account. Also would you kindly let me know if there is any misuse of "Power of Attorney" by the broking house.

 

Motilal Oswal, Zerodha, Angel Broking, Sharekhan and 5paisa come to my mind.

 

I am planning to have a second account for Positional Trades and Intraday by not using the primary account for those two requirements. The primary account will be used for only long term investment stock based portfolio which i have and add on and also for Mutual Funds. Maybe if i do not get a good altnerative, i wil continue to use the current D+T account for all the needs.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Straight Drive said:

@velu

 

What is the best option for having a secondary Demat + trading account. Also would you kindly let me know if there is any misuse of "Power of Attorney" by the broking house.

 

Motilal Oswal, Zerodha, Angel Broking, Sharekhan and 5paisa come to my mind.

 

I am planning to have a second account for Positional Trades and Intraday by not using the primary account for those two requirements. The primary account will be used for only long term investment stock based portfolio which i have and add on and also for Mutual Funds. Maybe if i do not get a good altnerative, i wil continue to use the current D+T account for all the needs.

 

 

 

there were many brokers who will keep clients share in their pool account instated of clients demat ( clients cant differentiate because backoffice will show that they have the share ) .. karvy misused this left and right , used clients shares to pledge and borrow money ..

 

after karvy episode SEBI gave time to brokers to implement stricter norms for PoA which shiuld be in effect from august 2020 ( but not all brokers might have implemented because of covid ) ..  

now if a client does any buy/sell in their demat account , they will get SMS , so if we are diligent enough whtehr brokers are misusing or not 

 

Zerodha clearly told they never keep clients share in the pool account .. i think established brokers like motilal , icici wont misuse

after the new PoA norms comes into effect , brokers cant use clients shares ..

 

leverage intraday trading will be completely removed from august 2021 .. so going for the broker who provide higher leverage will be unnecessary 

 

if you want todo intraday and positional in equties then zerodha is the best .. 

if you wantn todo intraday/positional in FnO , then Zerodha or fyers/finvasia for lower brokearage .. or motilla oswal for better full service support 

 

individual brokers are not allowed to have more than 15% of the total contracts in any FnO contracts .. Zerodha being the biggest broker regularly cross this threshold in bank nifty 

 

my review,

Zerodha -> low brokerage .. good for intrday without leverage .. pretty transparent , decent customer care

upstok ->  low brokerage .. good for intrday without leverage .. poor customer care ..  but these days they are getting lot of account login issues 

fyers -> more or less same as zerodha .. 

trade smart online -> have monthly unlimited trading plan for 3,999Rs

finvasia -> have zero brokerage plan .. have to pay for software and monthly account maintanence 

5paisa - discount broking arm of il&fs .. poor customer care 

 

motilal oswal -> best full service broker .. awesome support .. stable platform .. platform is complex though .. higher brokerage

angel - never used .. feedback is they are as good as motilal

kotak - more or less same as MO and angel .. but has 3 in 1 account 

icici - 3 in 1 account .. crappy interface 

sharekhan -> higher brokerage and they annoy their clients to subscribe to their paid calls  .. strong avoid

 

wisdom , astha , alice blue , goodwill -> giving 20 to 30 times leverage but very high brokerage .. will be redundant after decemenr 2020 

 

 

Edited by velu
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28 minutes ago, velu said:

 

there were many brokers who will keep clients share in their pool account instated of clients demat ( clients cant differentiate because backoffice will show that they have the share ) .. karvy misused this left and right , used clients shares to pledge and borrow money ..

 

after karvy episode SEBI gave time to brokers to implement stricter norms for PoA which shiuld be in effect from august 2020 ( but not all brokers might have implemented because of covid ) ..  

now if a client does any buy/sell in their demat account , they will get SMS , so if we are diligent enough whtehr brokers are misusing or not 

 

Zerodha clearly told they never keep clients share in the pool account .. i think established brokers like motilal , icici wont misuse

after the new PoA norms comes into effect , brokers cant use clients shares ..

 

leverage intraday trading will be completely removed from august 2021 .. so going for the broker who provide higher leverage will be unnecessary 

 

if you want todo intraday and positional in equties then zerodha is the best .. 

if you wantn todo intraday/positional in FnO , then Zerodha or fyers/finvasia for lower brokearage .. or motilla oswal for better full service support 

 

individual brokers are not allowed to have more than 15% of the total contracts in any FnO contracts .. Zerodha being the biggest broker regularly cross this threshold in bank nifty 

 

my review,

Zerodha -> low brokerage .. good for intrday without leverage .. pretty transparent , decent customer care

upstok ->  low brokerage .. good for intrday without leverage .. poor customer care ..  but these days they are getting lot of account login issues 

fyers -> more or less same as zerodha .. 

trade smart online -> have monthly unlimited trading plan for 3,999Rs

finvasia -> have zero brokerage plan .. have to pay for software and monthly account maintanence 

5paisa - discount broking arm of il&fs .. poor customer care 

 

motilal oswal -> best full service broker .. awesome support .. stable platform .. platform is complex though .. higher brokerage

angel - never used .. feedback is they are as good as motilal

kotak - more or less same as MO and angel .. but has 3 in 1 account 

icici - 3 in 1 account .. crappy interface 

sharekhan -> higher brokerage and they annoy their clients to subscribe to their paid calls  .. strong avoid

 

wisdom , astha , alice blue , goodwill -> giving 20 to 30 times leverage but very high brokerage .. will be redundant after decemenr 2020 

 

 

Thank you for the informative post.

 

KSBL scam was indeed a shocker. I agree with whatever you have mentioned regarding POA.

 

I read that Zerodha has issues with software and surely IMO that has to be a very big negative as it impacts the core need that is the timely and reliable trade.

 

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On 7/22/2020 at 11:18 PM, Straight Drive said:

Yes,  I received the "Confirmation Receipt" on the same day later in night.

 

The Bond may actually be different than the "Confirmation Receipt" which has all relevant details regarding the SGB. So far I have only received that and the holding is seen with latest value of gold in demat account.  It is now alloted to me so I think that's all in my case. But if someone is opting for physical bond then the paper may have the watermark of Bond and the proper certificate like look.

 

 

I checked the RBI website. It says the following

Quote

17. When will the customers be issued Holding Certificate?

The customers will be issued Certificate of Holding on the date of issuance of the SGB. Certificate of Holding can be collected from the issuing banks/SHCIL offices/Post Offices/Designated stock exchanges/agents or obtained directly from RBI on email, if email address is provided in the application form.

18. Can I apply online?

Yes. A customer can apply online through the website of the listed scheduled commercial banks. The issue price of the Gold Bonds will be ₹ 50 per gram less than the nominal value to those investors applying online and the payment against the application is made through digital mode.

So did you buy it online or through the banks. The online option saves you 50rs per gram. It says you can buy online only through the banks netbanking facility. My question is if somebody bought it online, will they get the certificate of holding by post or only pdf in the email. Its not very concrete in the website. Typical of Indian bureaucracy. Lots of stuff but important stuff missing. But unlike old bureaucracy, paper with RBI seal coming through by post is replaced with email pdf :no:They will post the rates before issue right. So we can gauge the performance only on the limited issue dates every year.

I have a question about the long term cap gains. This is the info posted in their website

Quote

28. What are the tax implications on i) interest and ii) capital gain?

Interest on the Bonds will be taxable as per the provisions of the Income-tax Act, 1961 (43 of 1961). The capital gains tax arising on redemption of SGB to an individual has been exempted. The indexation benefits will be provided to long terms capital gains arising to any person on transfer of bond.

29. Is tax deducted at source (TDS) applicable on the bond?

TDS is not applicable on the bond. However, it is the responsibility of the bond holder to comply with the tax laws.

It says capital gains on redemption is exempted. But in the very next sentence it says LTCG arising to any person on transfer of bond :dontknow:. Does it mean transfer of the person holding the bond or redemption itself. 29 makes my head swirl :hmmmm:

Whoever is the mod here, please make this a sticky thread.  @velu start :protest:

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On 7/29/2020 at 5:54 PM, Real McCoy said:

I checked the RBI website. It says the following

So did you buy it online or through the banks. The online option saves you 50rs per gram. It says you can buy online only through the banks netbanking facility. My question is if somebody bought it online, will they get the certificate of holding by post or only pdf in the email. Its not very concrete in the website. Typical of Indian bureaucracy. Lots of stuff but important stuff missing. But unlike old bureaucracy, paper with RBI seal coming through by post is replaced with email pdf :no:They will post the rates before issue right. So we can gauge the performance only on the limited issue dates every year.

I have a question about the long term cap gains. This is the info posted in their website

It says capital gains on redemption is exempted. But in the very next sentence it says LTCG arising to any person on transfer of bond :dontknow:. Does it mean transfer of the person holding the bond or redemption itself. 29 makes my head swirl :hmmmm:

Whoever is the mod here, please make this a sticky thread.  @velu start :protest:

I purchased it by logging in to my Savings Account.

 

Only on visiting the bank, I will get clarity whether the "Confirmation Receipt" PDF which was sent via email is being referred as "Certificate of Holding". Will mail the bank to get a clarification. As the Holdings is reflected and the redemption to me will be in the Bank account linked to Demat account, I am not losing peace of mind. But still, no harm in getting things clarified.

 

I think in point 28

they mean interest on the 2 percent interest amount may be applicable.

 

No idea regarding point 29.

 

The gold prices are making new highs and the festive season is yet to come. I feel the prices will bump up too much as the weddings scheduled in 200 summer which were postponed  will add to the seedings in last quarter of 2029 which also is the festive season. Then the next summer comes after a slight break. We might see a correction in gold price on in next June to September.

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On 8/2/2020 at 1:55 PM, Straight Drive said:

RBI Sovereign Gold Bond scheme (Series 4) starts tomorrow. Subscription period is 3 August 2020 to 7 August 2020.

 

The rates have increased from last month's subscription as gold price has gone up form approx 49k to approx 53k in just 25 days.

Should have invested last month itself. chalo :sad_smile: imagine those that invested last year. it was 35k last year. 50% increase for them. A little late to the party but better late than never. So invested on monday but still no receipt confirmation let alone certificate of holding. But it shows in my savings bank account though. I took printout and hoping for the best :nervous:

I did some research on the ltcg tax. it seems if you wait for maturation, there is no ltcg :yay: Im assuming its also the case for premature exit not sure though. But if you transfer it over to someone else i.e. trading of sgb bonds, then you will have to pay ltcg after indexing

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21 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

Should have invested last month itself. chalo :sad_smile: imagine those that invested last year. it was 35k last year. 50% increase for them. A little late to the party but better late than never. So invested on monday but still no receipt confirmation let alone certificate of holding. But it shows in my savings bank account though. I took printout and hoping for the best :nervous:

I did some research on the ltcg tax. it seems if you wait for maturation, there is no ltcg :yay: Im assuming its also the case for premature exit not sure though. But if you transfer it over to someone else i.e. trading of sgb bonds, then you will have to pay ltcg after indexing

Surely old investors will gain. So better late than never as time will eventually pass and reap benefits.

 

Indians keep on buying gold in some form or other, be it bullion, coins, Gold ETF, SGB, Digital Gold, Jewellery. All Indians must be feeling good that we can now invest gold in non physical form through multiple ways. Investing is tremendously easier now and very safe as it avoids all risks involved in physical storage of gold.

 

You can follow up with the bank for getting information regarding the "Confirmation receipt" or the "Physical Bond". In case of those who may not be having demat account, the bond is provided iirc. But as it is government related process it may take time for courier as has been seen in complaints by various investors in delay in receiving bond.

 

I think RBI SGB is a wonderful scheme as it cultivates long term investment without giving option to redeem immediately, helps government and helps people in many aspects. The response to this is good. However, the awareness campaign is not much. I saw only 2 advertisements on television (CNBC iirc). As banks must not be getting benefits of being one of the medium as selling platform, they seem less interested to promote with banners on website. No adverts in newspapers. Hope the government creates an awareness campaign so that it will be beneficial for nation as a whole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@Straight Drive Have a question for you. Have you bought physical gold like coins or bars. I would like some physical gold as well not as in jewellery but coins or bars as an investment. I'm less concerned about storing it. But it seems from what I have been reading online, the banks that sell gold don't buy the same.

That leaves the option to only sell it to the jewelers. It seems they don't pay the full amount because the gold that we purchase from the banks carry a premium and they won't pay the same amount. They may even outright reject buying gold and will offer a trade of coins to jewellery. Also jewelers prefer their own coins to coins from other institutions or jewelers. It seems the higher denomination coins/bars will attract less number of buyers as opposed to low denomination ones. Any idea about this. If gold has a tough time selling, then I would much rather stick to SGB then buying physical gold.

Also just got the confirmation receipt pdf yesterday by email. May have to check with the bank or RBI later on the actual bond. Much relieved that they atleast sent the confirmation :phew:

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3 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

@Straight Drive Have a question for you. Have you bought physical gold like coins or bars. I would like some physical gold as well not as in jewellery but coins or bars as an investment. I'm less concerned about storing it. But it seems from what I have been reading online, the banks that sell gold don't buy the same.

That leaves the option to only sell it to the jewelers. It seems they don't pay the full amount because the gold that we purchase from the banks carry a premium and they won't pay the same amount. They may even outright reject buying gold and will offer a trade of coins to jewellery. Also jewelers prefer their own coins to coins from other institutions or jewelers. It seems the higher denomination coins/bars will attract less number of buyers as opposed to low denomination ones. Any idea about this. If gold has a tough time selling, then I would much rather stick to SGB then buying physical gold.

Also just got the confirmation receipt pdf yesterday by email. May have to check with the bank or RBI later on the actual bond. Much relieved that they atleast sent the confirmation :phew:

I buy gold coins sometimes as birthday gifts for my family members and naming ceremony or first birthday of relatives kids as birthday gifts or for own investment. I have never bought the bar though. Never bought a gold bar though. No headache whether somoen will like it or not. Sureshot like and if they keep for 5 years they will like more seeing the amount it becomes. Best and easy choice of gift.

 

The point you mentioned regarding value deduction does exists in one case: Suppose you have got made gold ring or necklace or other jewellery from a goldshop named "ABC". Then after 10 years you decide to sell it or make a new jewellery out of it by adding more grams of gold to it. You visit another goldshop named "DEF". Then the shopkeeper "DEF" may (usually they will) deduct value as the jewellery was initially not made by him. It is not beneficial. The goldsmiths have a mark on gold jewellery which they use to identify whether they have made it or someone else has made it. If its made by others then he will deduct a good amount. If he himself has made it then there is no deduction. This is also the reason why it is advised to keep purchase invoive handy in case the goldsmith says he hasn't made the jewellery. It will be a proof for you. Generally a renowned and reputed goldsmith will not play such games to deduct money.

 

Although i have never sold gold coins, imo coin value remains same irresptive of gold shop you go to sell at and irrespective where you purchased it from. As long as its pure and as per carat, the value is intact.

 

Banks do not take back gold coins. They just sell certified gold.

 

The samller units are preferred as compared to gold bullion or bar because the value is more, so can make a difference when you go overseas due to taxation, limit, value one can carry across borders. Also the risk for purchaser is big because its a big amount and there can be some impurity. The buyers also generally will not buy gold of so much value from shopkeeper. Coins for gifts or investments, gold for ring and necklace are the most common purchases since long back. So the bars are not common and preferred.

Generally find one gold shop keeper who is doing business since 50+ years atleast in your city. Those are more trusted ones. Aged people can tell you about those shops which can be trusted more due to experince in buysing gold for a longer period of time.

Edited by Straight Drive
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