Pak VS India in terms of pace bowling

[express bowling]

10 hours ago, Shaz1 said:

 Which is why most Indian bowlers are not as appreciated as Pakistani bowlers.

 

In the last year, Indian fast bowlers have been really appreciated in 2 areas by experts of other countries.

 

First is  Shami and Umesh bowling in test matches in Asia.  We have seen some really high quality reverse swing both ways at high pace by this duo.

 

Second is Bumrah and Bhuvi bowling the slog overs in ODIs and T20Is.  WE have seen lots of great yorkers, slower balls and bouncers at good pace and wickets have been taken and run scoring slowed down.

 

Area which needs improvement is opening overs in ODIs.

 

Area which is unclear -- Indian quicks bowling outside Asia as a group. We did really well in the WI but the opposition was weak. I would reserve my judgement on this issue.

[Rightarmfast]

On 3/7/2017 at 2:28 AM, Shaz1 said:

Look the difference between us two is obvious here. Instead of taking what I am saying as just biased why don't you accept that there are other factors that make Indian bowling not so thrilling to watch?

 

Btw nice little history there. Respect!

Actually, it isnt so obvious to me. Can you clarify what you exactly mean by the difference between us? You actually used the phrase ' Trundlers' for Indian bowlers, and I tried to show you the real picture. Now, its upto you to accept it or not. Pakistan didnt have a great fast bowling history pre Imran Khan and post Shoaib Akhtar, you havent exactly produced a class bowler.

 

[express bowling]

44 minutes ago, Shaz1 said:

 The differences is where I judge a bowler more differently than you. For me a fast bowler is not just about having good stats. Its about being entertaining as well. I never found Indian bowlers that entertaining to watch cause I never saw them showing much personality in there bowling. They usually come in to bowl there spell than leave. Pakistani bowlers have shown there unique memorible celebrations that make em stand out.

 

 

Interesting point  !

 

My personal opinion is that people with exuberant personality often tend to underperform compared to heir potential..

 

The super-entertaining personality.... John McEnroe, has just 7 grand slams, despite being supremely talented.

 

" Boring" Borg has  11 and Sampras has 14.

 

Your own Imran Khan, an understated character on the field, was a much more effective bowler than the much more talented and entertaining Shoaib Akhter.

 

I, personally, prefer pacers who entertain by their bowling skills even if they have " boring " personalities. Those pacers whose bowling look exciting, even if they look boring as persons and just walk away after taking a wicket.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

38 minutes ago, Shaz1 said:

Fair points. I guess this shows the difference in mindsets of the countries. You prefer bowlers who do there job more than look for personality. We look for bowlers who show personality and do there job.

 

This is why my favorite Pakistani bowler right now is Junaid Khan. Its cause he entertains me with his personality. Despite being out of touch for so many years. For me cricket is entertainment. I want the win but I also want to be entertained. I guess each person sees it differently which is fine.

I think there wouldnt be any more boring bowler than Glen Mcgrath in the history of the game ( if you discount his verbal theatrics, which definitely isn't personality). Dale Steyn is another who I wouldn't rate as ' entertaining'. I am willing to put Shaun Pollock and Courtney Walsh in the same bracket.

I think what you actually want to say is, someone like Wasim Akram. Who would never need to abuse batsmen, never need to blow his own trumpet by calling himself the best in the world ( ala Shoaib Akhtar ), but while bowling, he had all the magic. Amazing talent, more than decent pace combined with his good looks. Even Waqar would be the same.

Maybe you people realize too,  you dont have such talents anymore, therefore, you try to find wasim and waqar in every tom dick harry of a bowler who claims to be this and that, more with words and less with the ball in his hand. And hence your emotions. I would say, its more of a desperation, than the truth.

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, Shaz1 said:

You have followed Indian bowling more closely than I have. You specialize in the knowledge of fast bowling in India. The differences is where I judge a bowler more differently than you. For me a fast bowler is not just about having good stats. Its about being entertaining as well. I never found Indian bowlers that entertaining to watch cause I never saw them showing much personality in there bowling. They usually come in to bowl there spell than leave. Pakistani bowlers have shown there unique memorible celebrations that make em stand out.

 

As for the trundlers part I am more than willing to accept Indian bowlers are not trundlers. However you did have few bowlers who were that category.

And while we are at it, just so you know, Sreesanth was an excellent dancer, Venky Prasad tried his hands in acting, Javagal Srinath was a good singer, Irfan Patha, well.... he was a great looker! So I just don't bloody understand what you mean when you say Indian bowlers are not entertaining?

[Haarkarjeetgaye]

As a unit, They bowl better than us most of the time. If that means they are better bowlers, so be it

[Rightarmfast]

6 hours ago, Shaz1 said:

Yes and they did all that on the field right? I think I have explained what I ment by this already. Don't feel like repeating myself.

that was just a stupid joke, man

[Rightarmfast]

4 hours ago, Haarkarjeetgaye said:

As a unit, They bowl better than us most of the time. If that means they are better bowlers, so be it

Are you talking about the Pakistani bowling unit or Indian bowling unit?

[Rightarmfast]

@express bowling @Shaz1 We need to have a thread on the Pakistani bowlers who never made it big. The likes of Md Akram, Ata ur rahman, Shabbir Ahmed, Zahid and all. Interestingly, some of them were hyped, like Shabbir Ahmed that he was faster than Shoaib. But he turned out to be a medium pacer.

 

[the don]

22 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

@express bowling @Shaz1 We need to have a thread on the Pakistani bowlers who never made it big. The likes of Md Akram, Ata ur rahman, Shabbir Ahmed, Zahid and all. Interestingly, some of them were hyped, like Shabbir Ahmed that he was faster than Shoaib. But he turned out to be a medium pacer.

 

Shabbir ahmed was a chucker  both pre and post remodling the bowling action but he was extremely quick when he first played with his original bowling action but never as quick as Shoaib.

Clocking 90 mph and more consistently    But than he started bowling line and length ala Asif when he was first called . 

Obviously wasnt as sucessful as Asif but still had a decent test career whatever little he played . Watch his debut highlights vs westindies . Was as quick as the hype . There were speedguns in that game.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by the don

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Shaz1 said:

Good Idea. Will gladly post in that thread if made. 

Shabbir Ahmed looked quite effective but he lacked the finesse of Asif (pity Asif was such a big cheat, otherwise his career was going great).

[Vijy]

4 minutes ago, Shaz1 said:

Asif is a topic worth talking about on that thread. Believe it or not he actually came to the states. He played cricket in a area my uncle knows. I would have met him yesturday had I known about it. 

 

If I had a chance to meet him I would need to think of question's I'd like to ask. One of them would have to be about bowling.

Interesting that you could have met him. I was very disappointed with all of his misdeeds, because he was shaping up to be one of the great fast-medium bowlers of all time. The way he set up batsmen like KP, the Indians, etc. was beguiling. Sometimes people say that X was a spinner with a pacer's mindset, but Asif was a pacer with a spinner's guile.

 

Having said that, he fully deserved his punishment for his repeated offences (and more).

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Shaz1 said:

Yeah I will be honest I do not respect him as I used to. Him, Amir, and Butt still give me those weird vibes. As a cricketer though you cannot deny he was highly talented bowler. Even now his insight on fast bowling is very good.

I never denied that - in fact, I spent quite a few lines explaining how great he could have been, no? :)

 

I am sure his ability to read batsmen is sstill very good.

[Vijy]

Just now, Shaz1 said:

Sorry I did not mean you litterally. Lol Its just how I worded it.

 

I think he was the architect of Amir's success. He seems to know his bowling very well.

I know, just kidding. Yes, Asif-Amir were more effective I think than Amir-Junaid despite the fact that Amir was much more raw.

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, Shaz1 said:

I like Junaid and Amir combo cause they have a history together. They both used to bowl together in domestic. I think they will improve once they both find there mojo again.

 

Amir and Junaid is like student and student. Asif and Amir were like teacher and student.

Like Oogway from Kung-Fu Panda.

[Haarkarjeetgaye]

2 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Are you talking about the Pakistani bowling unit or Indian bowling unit?

I am talking about Pakistani bowling unit. As a whole including spinners. I am talking about how they work on the ball. How they use the cross seam. How they use the short bowl. etc.  I think it is inbuilt in their system like it is for our batting, barring the current lot which is good too but selfish.   Even if we compare pacers only, I would take their pace battery over ours. Barring Bhuvi , I am not sure if any other can get in there pace bowling unit.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Haarkarjeetgaye said:

I am talking about Pakistani bowling unit. As a whole including spinners. I am talking about how they work on the ball. How they use the cross seam. How they use the short bowl. etc.  I think it is inbuilt in their system like it is for our batting, barring the current lot which is good too but selfish.   Even if we compare pacers only, I would take their pace battery over ours. Barring Bhuvi , I am not sure if any other can get in there pace bowling unit.

if shami was fit, he might (or might not). not sure about Bhuvi though... he's improved much and keeps things tight, but is not a wicket taker.

[Haarkarjeetgaye]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

if shami was fit, he might (or might not). not sure about Bhuvi though... he's improved much and keeps things tight, but is not a wicket taker.

True. Shami yes possible. A bowling unit is also about variety. So I feel they will be better of with a right arm bowler instead of Junaid. Amir and Hassan at this point look irreplaceable. I havent seen much of Shami. He has been out because of injury. Would take Bhuvi over Shami at this point. For the same variety reason, we also need to look for a left arm pacer in our team.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Haarkarjeetgaye said:

True. Shami yes possible. A bowling unit is also about variety. So I feel they will be better of with a right arm bowler instead of Junaid. Amir and Hassan at this point look irreplaceable. I havent seen much of Shami. He has been out because of injury. Would take Bhuvi over Shami at this point. For the same variety reason, we also need to look for a left arm pacer in our team.

junaid is coming off injury - when fully fit, he is excellent. a bit slower than amir, but a more consistent swinger of the ball.

 

returning to india, Khejroliya and aniket are lefties.

[Haarkarjeetgaye]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

junaid is coming off injury - when fully fit, he is excellent. a bit slower than amir, but a more consistent swinger of the ball.

 

returning to india, Khejroliya and aniket are lefties.

I doubt Junaids action. It may be legal but not clean. Havent seen these lefties. Did not watch IPL this time except the final highlights.