India, moving forward

[zen]

 

^ Nothing has changed substantially since 1950s. 

 

I want Ind to refocus its priorities with focus on improving the quality of life of the people. This could mean: 

 

• Putting planet first - Earth is the only planet that we know of where life as we know can exist. It is the duty of every individual to put planet first and protect it for future generations. There is no point in exploiting the planet in the name of economic development, which is relative. Focus should be on green tech / renewable / etc. 
• Basic facilities for people - Ind needs to focus on providing basic facilities including free basic medical services, free education at least till grade 10, efficient waste management, basic retirement plan, etc. to every individual 
• Respect for women, children and old - Ind society appears to be getting corrupt and cruel. I don't need to elaborate on this much. Ind needs a education system that revolutionizes how the society behaves 
• Population and Pollution control - Work towards zero pollution of air, water and land. Population level should be optimal - neither over nor under
• Cleanliness and community focus - Again a cultural change topic. It is hard to find too many countries that are dirtier than the subcontinent ....
• Infrastructure - Tied up with some of the other points. Key issues being waste management, clean water resources, efficient food storage, etc. Paying taxes is good if it helps to bring about such changes 

 

A lot of things in the world are going to change with the advent of new technologies. For e.g. 3D printing and robotics could change the manufacturing process where by the cost of labor (which Ind seems to be focused on) may not be a huge issue relative to manufacturing near the customers.  Below is an example of warehouse management, which minimizes labor intensive tasks:

 

 

 

Instead of having a mindset that is about just trying to catch up with the developed world, Ind should analyze where the world would be moving in the next few decades and take steps accordingly to try to leapfrog by focusing on innovation

Edited September 22, 2016 by zen

[gattaca]

for building all these things you need money. how do you get money ? by exports. We are no longer a agro based export country.

 

"In recent years, India has become one of the biggest refined product exporters in Asia with petroleum accounting for around 20 percent of total exports. The country also exports: engineering goods (19 percent of the total shipments), chemical and pharmaceutical products (14 percent), gems and jewellery (14 percent), agricultural and allied products (10 percent) and textiles and clothing (10 percent). India’s main export partners are: United Arab Emirates (12.1 percent of the total exports), the United States (12 percent), Singapore (4.5 percent), China (4.5 percent), Hong Kong (4 percent) and Netherlands (3.5 percent). This page provides the latest reported value for - India Exports - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news. India Exports - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on September of 2016. "

Most of these exports will cause damage to environment.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/exports

[zen]

9 hours ago, gattaca said:

for building all these things you need money. how do you get money ? by exports. We are no longer a agro based export country.

Ind needs good policies. As I said, since 50's nothing has changed substancially (watch RK's clip) 

 

One example of a policy change could be providing free education till Grade 10. This would mean that private school would close down as they cannot charge tuition. This in turn means that everyone goes to public funded school. Since kids from all types of background, whether from rich or poor family, would go to such schools, rich families will be forced to invest (through donations) to improve such schools so their kids can get proper education. This in turn will benefit the society, along with keeping costs down for govt 

 

Additionally since kids of all types of background mix, the discrimination of poor by rich would decrease. Say you are from a millionaire family being forced to go to the school in your area where poor kids also come to study. Sooner or later, they become your friends. When you grow up, would you not have policies in your company that benefit the poor employees? Since you would have gone to school with poor kids too, you would understand their situation and not think about exploitation but being fair 

 

Money is just a tool that you need to live happily (not that you cannot live happily without money). If we create a society that stays happy, money takes the back stage 

 

To create a happy (and therefore a positive culture) society, those are some of the steps Ind could take 

 

[gattaca]

3 hours ago, zen said:

Ind needs good policies. As I said, since 50's nothing has changed substancially (watch RK's clip) 

 

One example of a policy change could be providing free education till Grade 10. This would mean that private school would close down as they cannot charge tuition. This in turn means that everyone goes to public funded school. Since kids from all types of background, whether from rich or poor family, would go to such schools, rich families will be forced to invest (through donations) to improve such schools so their kids can get proper education. This in turn will benefit the society, along with keeping costs down for govt 

 

Additionally since kids of all types of background mix, the discrimination of poor by rich would decrease. Say you are from a millionaire family being forced to go to the school in your area where poor kids also come to study. Sooner or later, they become your friends. When you grow up, would you not have policies in your company that benefit the poor employees? Since you would have gone to school with poor kids too, you would understand their situation and not think about exploitation but being fair 

 

Money is just a tool that you need to live happily (not that you cannot live happily without money). If we create a society that stays happy, money takes the back stage 

 

To create a happy (and therefore a positive culture) society, those are some of the steps Ind could take 

 

USA does provide free education still rich study in private schools and also how can change attitude of government teachers who been lazy for years.  Come on money can't be just a tool there are lot of impacts. We are tied to global markets. Rupee will be devalued and exports will get hit. 

[zen]

6 hours ago, gattaca said:

USA does provide free education still rich study in private schools and also how can change attitude of government teachers who been lazy for years.  Come on money can't be just a tool there are lot of impacts. We are tied to global markets. Rupee will be devalued and exports will get hit. 

Note that the idea is to not charge (ban) at all for basic education, which will do away with private schools who would want to charge for tuition. And therefore everyone is forced to study in the school in their area, leading to better schools 

 

[BeautifulGame]

Ind needs good policies. As I said, since 50's nothing has changed substancially (watch RK's clip) 

 

One example of a policy change could be providing free education till Grade 10. This would mean that private school would close down as they cannot charge tuition. This in turn means that everyone goes to public funded school. Since kids from all types of background, whether from rich or poor family, would go to such schools, rich families will be forced to invest (through donations) to improve such schools so their kids can get proper education. This in turn will benefit the society, along with keeping costs down for govt 

 

Additionally since kids of all types of background mix, the discrimination of poor by rich would decrease. Say you are from a millionaire family being forced to go to the school in your area where poor kids also come to study. Sooner or later, they become your friends. When you grow up, would you not have policies in your company that benefit the poor employees? Since you would have gone to school with poor kids too, you would understand their situation and not think about exploitation but being fair 

 

Money is just a tool that you need to live happily (not that you cannot live happily without money). If we create a society that stays happy, money takes the back stage 

 

To create a happy (and therefore a positive culture) society, those are some of the steps Ind could take 

 

That's is called communism and usually drags the country to shit .

The government schools will provide rubbish standard of education destroying future generations .

[zen]

24 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

That's is called communism and usually drags the country to shit .

The government schools will provide rubbish standard of education destroying future generations .

Norway is an example of where such system work. 

 

[BeautifulGame]

Norway is an example of where such system work. 

 

Norway is a small country with efficient governance.Their entire population is less than that of Mumbai lol .

Also pretty sure they (and other Scandinavian countries)also regularly top for corruption free governance.

I am we all would love not just their government provided quality education system but also free health care system like there as well.

But with our inefficiency and corruption ,we will end up more like Venezuela .

We have 250 mil below poverty line .Uplifting them is the major priority and creating jobs and capitalism is the correct way forward for a country like India.

.

[zen]

4 hours ago, BeautifulGame said:

Norway is a small country with efficient governance.Their entire population is less than that of Mumbai lol .

Also pretty sure they (and other Scandinavian countries)also regularly top for corruption free governance.

I am we all would love not just their government provided quality education system but also free health care system like there as well.

But with our inefficiency and corruption ,we will end up more like Venezuela .

We have 250 mil below poverty line .Uplifting them is the major priority and creating jobs and capitalism is the correct way forward for a country like India.

.

Everyone knows what Norway is. The point is that everyone makes a start somewhere. You are focusing on where Norway has reached and not where it was and how it made changes 

 

The list of problems that you mentioned is the one we are trying to solve. The idea is not be underwhelmed by the problems and not start at all

 

The thread is turning out more like an entrepreneur coming up with an idea (say Google in the past) and many who don't understand the concept coming up with a list of why it (Google) will not work

 

I m more interested in knowing how to make it work

Edited September 24, 2016 by zen

[moniker]

Everyone knows what Norway is. The point is that everyone makes a start somewhere. You are focusing on where Norway has reached and not where it was and how it made changes 

 

The list of problems that you mentioned is the one we are trying to solve. The idea is not be underwhelmed by the problems and not start at all

 

The thread is turning out more like an entrepreneur coming up with an idea (say Google in the past) and many who don't understand the concept coming up with a list of why it (Google) will not work

 

I m more interested in knowing how to make it work

Norway was lucky in the sense that they found oil and came up with a way to put the money to good use.

A cash-strapped country like ours simply doesn't have the resources to go for such socialistic policies.

An entrepreneur coming up with an idea has to raise capital first. Google, like most companies resorted to IPOs to raise capital. If you want to compare this to India, our public doesn't have the money to pay the additional taxes necessary to support a switch to socialism.

You want to know how to make this work? Make the country richer through strong capitalistic policies (like the US). Create jobs for the people and get them out of poverty. And then tax them and use the money to fund Scandinavian type policies.

[zen]

26 minutes ago, moniker said:

You want to know how to make this work? Make the country richer through strong capitalistic policies (like the US). Create jobs for the people and get them out of poverty. And then tax them and use the money to fund Scandinavian type policies.

For 100s of years, Ind has been struggling to become rich. Once it was touted as an economic tiger but that myth got busted too. 

 

If Ind is going to wait for money first, a change may never happen (in our life time). Also People in Ind don't believe in paying taxes honestly (the rich are among the biggest tax evadors), Corruption is omnipresent, ....

 

So to drive change, there needs to be a cultural change 

 

I want to refocus Ind attention on the points that I mentioned, and it is about going away from the some of the opinion posted here 

[BeautifulGame]

For 100s of years, Ind has been struggling to become rich. Once it was touted as an economic tiger but that myth got busted too. 

 

If Ind is going to wait for money first, a change may never happen (in our life time). Also People in Ind don't believe in paying taxes honestly (the rich are among the biggest tax evadors), Corruption is omnipresent, ....

 

So to drive change, there needs to be a cultural change 

 

I want to refocus Ind attention on the points that I mentioned, and it is about going away from the some of the opinion posted here 

We only got independence 70 years back and liberalised the economy only 25 years .Already the impacts of liberalised economy are pretty tangible.

Not sure where this struggling to be rich for 100 years come from.

[The Outsider]

Is this thread a joke? Our cities are unlivable and our agriculture is in distress. 

 

Faking GDP numbers can only get you so far. Even there, we've reached a stage where every financial institution does its own calculation of India's GDP and the numbers are pathetic, despite what they might say in lip service.

 

Protests, arson, and looting by relatively well to do communities like Jat, Patidar, and Marathas (no violence yet) are certainly signs of India zooming ahead. Let's not even talk about Muslims and Dalits who get slaughtered daily to save cows.

[FischerTal]

problem with india is over development of its major cities without adequate focus on small cities or the village economy. tonnes of people have now arrived in these major cities, which are the only source of employment in the current economy. 

[The Outsider]

2 minutes ago, FischerTal said:

problem with india is over development of its major cities without adequate focus on small cities or the village economy. tonnes of people have now arrived in these major cities, which are the only source of employment in the current economy. 

That's a very simplistic statement. Problem with India is that we are trying to jump on the global manufacturing wagon 20 years after it has passed. There is no demand and neither are we competitive in areas where demand is there. India's only growth model is internal consumption which can come through huge investments in health and education to be reaped 20 years later. Otherwise the demographic dividend that our politicians keep chiming about will result in a demographic civil war, which has already shown its nascence in HR, GJ, MH, RJ.

 

In case you wonder why BJP ruled states are facing this backlash think of MGNREGA which was ridiculed by armchair free market proponents w/o knowing what or who the market is.

[FischerTal]

21 minutes ago, The Outsider said:

That's a very simplistic statement. Problem with India is that we are trying to jump on the global manufacturing wagon 20 years after it has passed. There is no demand and neither are we competitive in areas where demand is there. India's only growth model is internal consumption which can come through huge investments in health and education to be reaped 20 years later. Otherwise the demographic dividend that our politicians keep chiming about will result in a demographic civil war, which has already shown its nascence in HR, GJ, MH, RJ.

 

In case you wonder why BJP ruled states are facing this backlash think of MGNREGA which was ridiculed by armchair free market proponents w/o knowing what or who the market is.

its not a BJP vs congress issue. if you are referring to jats, patidars, marathas. these communities were quite prosperous when compared with most indian communities after independence. problem is that they traditionally relied on agriculture as the source of their wealth, which itself is diminishing as a percentage of india's economy. during this time, these communities did not invest any efforts into educating their youth. their mantra in life was to live like kings by selling their land or renting it out as a source of income. now they remain without land or any viable education that can help them compete. 

 

as far your claim in health and education investments, it doesn't matter how much you invest in these areas unless you don't root out corruption. heck the more educated you become, the more jugaadu people become in finding new ways to dodge the system. during my last visit to india, i saw rampant medical malpractice with doctors just trying to find any excuse for keeping patients in their hospitals in the hope of charging them more. pharmaceutical companies sponsor doctors for foreign trips, while the same doctors return the favor by prescribing the same medicine, even if it goes against the health of their patients. most patients unfortunately have zero medical IQ, so they have no choice but to look on their health care provider as a GOD.  and these people are supposed to be the highly educated folks of india but their mindset remains no different from thieves. 

Edited September 25, 2016 by FischerTal

[The Outsider]

3 minutes ago, FischerTal said:

its not a BJP vs congress issue. if you are referring to jats, patidars, marathas. these communities were quite prosperous when compared with most indian communities after independence. problem is that they traditionally relied on agriculture as the source of their wealth, which itself is diminishing as a percentage of india's economy. during this time, these communities did not invest any efforts into educating their youth. their mantra in life was to live like kings by selling their land or renting it out as a source of income. now they remain without land or any viable education that can help them compete. 

 

as far your claim in health and education investments, it doesn't matter how much you invest in these areas unless you don't root out corruption. heck the more educated you become, the more jugaadu people become in finding new ways to dodge the system. during my last visit to india, i saw rampant medical malpractice with doctors just trying to find any excuse for keeping patients in their hospitals in the hope of charging them more. pharmaceutical companies sponsor doctors for foreign trips, while the same doctors return the favor by prescribing the same medicine, even if it goes against the health of their patients. and these people are supposed to be the highly educated folks of india but their mindset remains no different from thieves. 

Isn't that my point? That you took away land from relatively prosperous communities and now they are in resent? Why? As you say, the money ran out. But did we have any contingency plans in place? Did we plan how much land we are taking and how much we will be able to assimilate in an urban environment? 

 

It is BJP vs. Congress because BJP promised to solve all these issues and more in the last campaign unless you were deaf to a lunatic shouting. It shouldn't be BJP vs. Congress because are grappling with deep structural problems, some of which you've mentioned in your post. However, the political point is that if you came to power promising 15 Lakh in each account and haven't deposited 15 paise, you can't hide behind the facade of jumlaas.

 

If you invest in health and education the benefits and direction will come on their own. Heck, even a poor country like BD has better rural statistics than us because only for a limited period of time they invested in Amartya Sen's outlook. And we as a supposed superpower have a 50 million deficit of females, and we are champions at taking a dump in the khet!

[CG]

Ind needs good policies. As I said, since 50's nothing has changed substancially (watch RK's clip) 

 

One example of a policy change could be providing free education till Grade 10. This would mean that private school would close down as they cannot charge tuition. This in turn means that everyone goes to public funded school. Since kids from all types of background, whether from rich or poor family, would go to such schools, rich families will be forced to invest (through donations) to improve such schools so their kids can get proper education. This in turn will benefit the society, along with keeping costs down for govt 

 

Additionally since kids of all types of background mix, the discrimination of poor by rich would decrease. Say you are from a millionaire family being forced to go to the school in your area where poor kids also come to study. Sooner or later, they become your friends. When you grow up, would you not have policies in your company that benefit the poor employees? Since you would have gone to school with poor kids too, you would understand their situation and not think about exploitation but being fair 

 

Money is just a tool that you need to live happily (not that you cannot live happily without money). If we create a society that stays happy, money takes the back stage 

 

To create a happy (and therefore a positive culture) society, those are some of the steps Ind could take 

 

India does provide free education till 10.

[zen]

7 hours ago, BeautifulGame said:

We only got independence 70 years back and liberalised the economy only 25 years .Already the impacts of liberalised economy are pretty tangible.

Not sure where this struggling to be rich for 100 years come from.

Independence or no independence, Ind has been a poor country. If you want to talk about independence, there are countries that had been colonized too but doing better. At one point, Ind was rated with China but that myth got busted with China pulling far ahead (see GDP per capita)

 

Instead of seeing crux of the point, your posts focus on irrelevant details 

Edited September 25, 2016 by zen

[The Outsider]

8 minutes ago, zen said:

Independence or no independence, Ind has been a poor country. If you want to talk about independence, there are countries that had been colonized too but doing better. At one point, Ind was rated with China but that myth got busted with China pulling far ahead (see GDP per capita)

 

Instead of seeing crux of the point, your posts focus on irrelevant details 

India had the highest GDP in the world as recently as 1750, which *s up quite a few myth of yours about Muslim rule! As for being a poor country, in that era there was no concept of equitable distribution of wealth so every country was poor from a citizen perspective. However, the current fact is we aren't even at Sahara levels. Zooming ahead!