Areas where Kohli is better than Tendulkar as a player.

[velu]

Just now, Vijy said:

Why such less importance being attached to first innings knocks? If one puts up a high total, it gives bowlers something to defend. I'd assume that the first innings records, esp when SRT opened, must be similar?

that stat was not posted by me .. someone else posted and it is straight forward observation from my side

 

fanboys should either take the stats or leave the stats .. when sachins stat is less awesome than other players  then these same fanboys will say stats wont show everything , but they will happily pick the stat when his stats are better than other players..

 

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I don't think that anyone who has actually seen Tendulkar bat in the '90s have actually forgotten what a collosal  figure he was and what impact he had on Indian and world cricket.

 

Sheer ability to bat against quality bowlers and on tough surfaces... and consistency. ...are 2 areas where he will remain almost unparalleled for a long time.

 

At the same time, his love for stats, especially during the later part of his career, has drawn a lot of criticism from many quarters.

 

Overall....both Tendulkar and Kohli are big favourites of mine for their contribution  to Indian Cricket and entertainment factor...these comparisons invariable end up being interpreted as if the debators are trying to put down one player over another and that is best avoided regarding favourite cricketers.

Yes, it was not something I foresaw, at least not to that extent. I will, instead, always prefer to remember him from 1993-2011, especially till 2002.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, velu said:

that stat was not posted by me .. someone else posted and it is straight forward observation from my side

 

fanboys should either take the stats or leave the stats .. when sachins stat is less awesome than other players  then these same fanboys will say stats wont show everything , but they will happily pick the stat when his stats are better than other players..

 

Not an SRT fanboy here. May have been one many years ago, but his conduct from 2011-2013 brought down my opinion of him to some degree. But, overlooking the man's achievements, esp in the first half of his career seems unnecessary.

[Laaloo]

1 hour ago, velu said:

 

looks like kohli is way ahead of sahin 

yeah "sahin" was never good

[velu]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

Not an SRT fanboy here. May have been one many years ago, but his conduct from 2011-2013 brought down my opinion of him to some degree. But, overlooking the man's achievements, esp in the first half of his career seems unnecessary.

true fanboyism here if you go through all the posts.. fanboys here are actually trying to put down kohlis achievement

if sachin is ahead of kohli in tests in his initial phase of his career , kohli is well ahead of sachin in ODIs , also kohlis worlload at the same time is more than sachin considering the T20s and IPLs

 

[velu]

3 minutes ago, laaloo said:

yeah "sahin" was never good

grammar nazi ..

 

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Yes, it was not something I foresaw, at least not to that extent. I will, instead, always prefer to remember him from 1993-2011, especially till 2002.

We'll never know for sure.  But I do blame Gavaskar a bit for some of that.   Its wellknown that SMG was considered a mentor by Tendy and he took his advice very seriously.  And after his post-injury comeback, Tendy did appear to change a bit into a player who was conscious about his legacy and as a player who was trying to address some of the minor statistical gaps in his career CV.  To me, it appeared that he had personally targeted getting his average above 65, and wanted to get some big doubles etc.  As it often happens, when you consciously try to chase a tough goal, it goes further away from you.     

 

I still remember watching Tendy bat at Kennington Oval in 2011 - He was batting so fluently, until he got to 80 - it would have been his 100th century if he had gotten it.  At that point, he abrubtly switched gears and tried to tighten up and eliminate risk.  Result - Swann got him out because he was playing a bit defensive and allowed Swann to bowl to him, instead of batting his own fluent natural way that he was till then.  

 

So I'm not claiming that Tendy was perfect by any means, he had his flaws.  But they are minor ones - not enough to justify labels like "Selfish" etc.  And certainly not enough to tarnish his legit earned status as one of the greatest ever to bat in test cricket.  

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, velu said:

true fanboyism here if you go through all the posts.. fanboys here are actually trying to put down kohlis achievement

if sachin is ahead of kohli in tests in his initial phase of his career , kohli is well ahead of sachin in ODIs , also kohlis worlload at the same time is more than sachin considering the T20s and IPLs

 

Obviously VK is ahead of Sachin (much ahead) in ODIs at the same stage. Hope that people are not questioning that. And vice-versa in Tests. SRT took a long time to get into his grove as an ODI bat, process only started after he opened.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

We'll never know for sure.  But I do blame Gavaskar a bit for some of that.   Its wellknown that SMG was considered a mentor by Tendy and he took his advice very seriously.  And after his post-injury comeback, Tendy did appear to change a bit into a player who was conscious about his legacy and as a player who was trying to address some of the minor statistical gaps in his career CV.  To me, it appeared that he had personally targeted getting his average above 65, and wanted to get some big doubles etc.  As it often happens, when you consciously try to chase a tough goal, it goes further away from you.     

 

I still remember watching Tendy bat at Kennington Oval in 2011 - He was batting so fluently, until he got to 80 - it would have been his 100th century if he had gotten it.  At that point, he abrubtly switched gears and tried to tighten up and eliminate risk.  Result - Swann got him out because he was playing a bit defensive and allowed Swann to bowl to him, instead of batting his own fluent natural way that he was till then.  

 

So I'm not claiming that Tendy was perfect by any means, he had his flaws.  But they are minor ones - not enough to justify labels like "Selfish" etc.  And certainly not enough to tarnish his legit earned status as one of the greatest ever to bat in test cricket.  

You can blame Sunny for the advice, but the final blame of the decision lies solely with the decision-maker. As for SRT, I really liked his phase from 2008- mid 2011 - yes, he was more of an accumulator (maybe with an eye towards stats), but there was the reassuring solidity of old, allied to an inevitability about the whole process.

 

But yes, once that 100th 100 came around (from Pak semifinal), he was really very different.

[Laaloo]

6 minutes ago, velu said:

grammar nazi ..

 

[sandeep]

Just now, Vijy said:

You can blame Sunny for the advice, but the final blame of the decision lies solely with the decision-maker. As for SRT, I really liked his phase from 2008- mid 2011 - yes, he was more of an accumulator (maybe with an eye towards stats), but there was the reassuring solidity of old, allied to an inevitability about the whole process.

 

But yes, once that 100th 100 came around (from Pak semifinal), he was really very different.

I said I blame him "a bit" not 100%.  Tendy owns the decisions and choices he made, no question.  His biggest "fail" in my view, was the 2003 final.  He choked, and went away from his normal game into over-aggressive mode and got out.  Very poor judgement from a talented and smart cricketer.  That was a complete road of a pitch and if Tendy had played even for 40-odd balls, I believe things could have been very different.  Anyway its all history at this point.  

 

To me, he was never quite the same player after 2003.  The Tendy of old would re-appear once every few games.  But for someone who had seen him be amazing every damn game, that transition was disappointing.   All good though.  That 80% version of Tendy was still good enough to be among the top bats in the game at the time - not many can lay such a claim - to be amongst the top in your profession, while you are not anywhere near your own best.  

[Laaloo]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I said I blame him "a bit" not 100%.  Tendy owns the decisions and choices he made, no question.  His biggest "fail" in my view, was the 2003 final.  He choked, and went away from his normal game into over-aggressive mode and got out.  Very poor judgement from a talented and smart cricketer.  That was a complete road of a pitch and if Tendy had played even for 40-odd balls, I believe things could have been very different.  Anyway its all history at this point.  

 

To me, he was never quite the same player after 2003.  The Tendy of old would re-appear once every few games.  But for someone who had seen him be amazing every damn game, that transition was disappointing.   All good though.  That 80% version of Tendy was still good enough to be among the top bats in the game at the time - not many can lay such a claim - to be amongst the top in your profession, while you are not anywhere near your own best.  

I think the Tennis Elbow injury was much more serious than it was made out to be

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

I said I blame him "a bit" not 100%.  Tendy owns the decisions and choices he made, no question.  His biggest "fail" in my view, was the 2003 final.  He choked, and went away from his normal game into over-aggressive mode and got out.  Very poor judgement from a talented and smart cricketer.  That was a complete road of a pitch and if Tendy had played even for 40-odd balls, I believe things could have been very different.  Anyway its all history at this point.  

 

To me, he was never quite the same player after 2003.  The Tendy of old would re-appear once every few games.  But for someone who had seen him be amazing every damn game, that transition was disappointing.   All good though.  That 80% version of Tendy was still good enough to be among the top bats in the game at the time - not many can lay such a claim - to be amongst the top in your profession, while you are not anywhere near your own best.  

As for 2003, no matter what anyone did, that total was too large to chase down (given chasing standards of that time and Oz attack).

 

In Tests, his peak was probably 1993-2002 (inclusive of both years, so about a decade). But in ODIs, he steadily improved with age by and large (until 2011). Some of his technically most accomplished innings came quite later - there was a 160 against NZ, the 175 against Oz, the 200 against SA. Sure, many were on pattas, ODI batting had become easier, etc. but what stood out was his mastery over pacing, etc.

[Laaloo]

Just now, Vijy said:

As for 2003, no matter what anyone did, that total was too large to chase down (given chasing standards of that time and Oz attack).

 

In Tests, his peak was probably 1993-2002 (inclusive of both years, so about a decade). But in ODIs, he steadily improved with age by and large (until 2011). Some of his technically most accomplished innings came quite later - there was a 160 against NZ, the 175 against Oz, the 200 against SA. Sure, many were on pattas, ODI batting had become easier, etc. but what stood out was his mastery over pacing, etc.

 I wish we had batted first because there was rain later on. Maybe we didnt bat first because we got shot out for 125 in the group stage odis against Aus batting first.

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

As for 2003, no matter what anyone did, that total was too large to chase down (given chasing standards of that time and Oz attack).

 

In Tests, his peak was probably 1993-2002 (inclusive of both years, so about a decade). But in ODIs, he steadily improved with age by and large (until 2011). Some of his technically most accomplished innings came quite later - there was a 160 against NZ, the 175 against Oz, the 200 against SA. Sure, many were on pattas, ODI batting had become easier, etc. but what stood out was his mastery over pacing, etc.

That was his "Obi-wan" phase.  Grizzled experience, knowingly working percentages.  But the pure batting spectacle of Tendy - the pure and utter domination over the bowling regardless of conditions, opposition etc that he would regularly put up in the 90s - that for me, was better than the bigger ODI scores of more recent vintage.  

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, laaloo said:

 I wish we had batted first because there was rain later on. Maybe we didnt bat first because we got shot out for 125 in the group stage odis against Aus batting first.

Might have been worth a try. Scoreboard pressure matters in finals.

[Laaloo]

Just now, Vijy said:

Might have been worth a try. Scoreboard pressure matters in finals.

Yeah you always bat first in  high pressure match.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

That was his "Obi-wan" phase.  Grizzled experience, knowingly working percentages.  But the pure batting spectacle of Tendy - the pure and utter domination over the bowling regardless of conditions, opposition etc that he would regularly put up in the 90s - that for me, was better than the bigger ODI scores of more recent vintage.  

Big fan of Obi-Wan here (esp the Alec Guinness portrayal). So, your analogy is rather pleasing - Obi-Tendy.

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, laaloo said:

 I wish we had batted first because there was rain later on. Maybe we didnt bat first because we got shot out for 125 in the group stage odis against Aus batting first.

Yeah, gangu was scared of the aussie bowlers and rightly so.  We got shotout in the league game, and in the previous world cup - McGrath and co reduced us to 17/4 in a must-win game.    

 

I disagree with Vijy that we couldn't have chased that down.  That final as after natwest - we had already chased 300+ scores a few times.  And we had Sehwag in our lineup too.  It was unlikely, but by no means impossible.  Tendy's early dismissal pretty much sealed the game.  

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Yeah, gangu was scared of the aussie bowlers and rightly so.  We got shotout in the league game, and in the previous world cup - McGrath and co reduced us to 17/4 in a must-win game.    

 

I disagree with Vijy that we couldn't have chased that down.  That final as after natwest - we had already chased 300+ scores a few times.  And we had Sehwag in our lineup too.  It was unlikely, but by no means impossible.  Tendy's early dismissal pretty much sealed the game.  

No, we couldn't have done so 98 times out of 100. Chases over 340 are rare, much more so than chases of 300-320 (which is what we had done). And against that Oz attack, it wasn't gonna happen really. Just wishful thinking - Ind were decimated by one of the great teams, along expected lines. Similar fate also befell SL in 2007.

 

P.S: It's not "impossible" but it was "highly improbable".

Edited December 11, 2016 by Vijy