Trichromatic Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, randomGuy said: I don't like that either...but kohli is so far ahead of sachin in ODIs that it's not even a contest. And however good sachin was, he was massively overrated (only by Indians). Far ahead is exaggeration when you think that Kohli isn't even a great while batting first. Average of 41 with SR of 85 while batting first is hardly top batsman effort in this era. This doesn't look good when you consider that this is peak of his form. Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Records of all batsmen in first inning since Kohli's debut: Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 2008-2012 21 21 2 1226 200* 64.52 1266 96.84 6 3 0 128 21 MS Dhoni (INDIA) 2008-2017 76 74 17 3332 139* 58.45 3554 93.75 5 23 1 263 75 AB de Villiers (SA) 2008-2016 80 77 8 4015 162* 58.18 3658 109.75 14 20 1 296 110 HM Amla (SA) 2008-2016 81 81 6 4341 159 57.88 4703 92.30 18 18 2 432 30 V Sehwag (INDIA) 2008-2012 28 28 0 1609 219 57.46 1264 127.29 5 6 0 211 34 IJL Trott (ENG) 2009-2013 32 31 3 1608 137 57.42 2017 79.72 3 12 2 123 0 LRPL Taylor (NZ) 2008-2016 68 68 9 3009 131* 51.00 3595 83.69 10 15 3 222 62 JE Root (ENG) 2013-2017 39 38 1 1878 125 50.75 2083 90.15 6 11 1 151 21 KC Sangakkara (SL) 2008-2015 95 93 7 4332 169 50.37 5272 82.16 9 32 4 399 36 JP Duminy (SA) 2008-2016 75 70 15 2642 150* 48.03 2786 94.83 4 17 1 170 51 Q de Kock (SA) 2013-2016 38 38 2 1714 135 47.61 1968 87.09 8 5 0 196 17 KS Williamson (NZ) 2010-2016 58 57 4 2523 145* 47.60 2926 86.22 5 17 3 249 16 RG Sharma (INDIA) 2008-2016 53 52 6 2188 264 47.56 2419 90.45 7 8 4 182 63 Yuvraj Singh (INDIA) 2008-2017 37 36 3 1498 150 45.39 1512 99.07 6 6 6 167 42 TM Dilshan (SL) 2008-2016 95 95 7 3994 161* 45.38 4666 85.59 10 21 4 455 17 Misbah-ul-Haq (PAK) 2008-2015 61 59 11 2177 96* 45.35 3088 70.49 0 21 2 105 34 MN Samuels (WI) 2011-2016 38 38 5 1463 133* 44.33 1943 75.29 6 5 2 130 29 DA Warner (AUS) 2009-2017 54 54 1 2347 178 44.28 2519 93.17 8 9 2 237 40 MEK Hussey (AUS) 2008-2012 61 61 8 2322 108 43.81 2504 92.73 1 19 0 145 33 GJ Bailey (AUS) 2012-2016 53 53 5 2084 156 43.41 2342 88.98 2 17 2 151 50 DA Miller (SA) 2010-2016 54 53 16 1596 138* 43.13 1487 107.33 2 7 3 123 46 MJ Clarke (AUS) 2008-2015 67 66 6 2556 117 42.60 3303 77.38 4 16 1 193 17 SPD Smith (AUS) 2010-2017 48 45 5 1702 164 42.55 1931 88.14 4 10 3 145 21 SE Marsh (AUS) 2008-2016 26 26 0 1100 151 42.30 1420 77.46 3 5 2 94 13 Mohammad Hafeez (PAK) 2010-2017 64 64 5 2492 140* 42.23 3130 79.61 7 13 5 229 45 AD Mathews (SL) 2008-2016 96 90 21 2905 139* 42.10 3372 86.15 1 21 7 209 55 S Dhawan (INDIA) 2011-2017 31 31 0 1275 137 41.12 1447 88.11 4 7 0 149 14 V Kohli (INDIA) 2008-2017 75 74 4 2877 138 41.10 3326 86.50 10 15 6 237 22 MJ Guptill (NZ) 2009-2016 73 73 4 2807 237* 40.68 3361 83.51 5 18 6 283 63 F du Plessis (SA) 2011-2016 54 52 5 1912 133* 40.68 2248 85.05 4 13 1 145 29 JC Buttler (ENG) 2013-2017 39 38 6 1297 129 40.53 1007 128.79 3 5 3 105 53 Link to comment
randomGuy Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Far ahead is exaggeration when you think that Kohli isn't even a great while batting first. Average of 41 with SR of 85 while batting first is hardly top batsman effort in this era. This doesn't look good when you consider that this is peak of his form. Needn't look at batting first record. Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Dhoni has been rounded player if you consider all types of scenarios in ODI cricket. He has done well while batting first and is probably 2nd best in chasing after Kohli. He has been the best finisher for India when they are looking to set a target or chase a target. He has played the Chennai type inning when batting was difficult and he has also played innings on flat pitch but with scoreboard pressure. He has shown that he can survive difficult phases of batting and go bonkers when needed. Kohli has been bit one dimensional in this regards. While he is way ahead of others while chasing and scoreboard pressure means almost nothing for him, we haven't seen him much in difficult phases of batting. Although that's not his fault as pitches don't offer much in ODIs and he can do best in what is in front of him. He isn't a failure in such conditions, rather I would say he is unproven. His first innings effort has nothing to speak about. He has been good, but behind his peers like Rohit and Dhoni. Sachin in this regards was all round batsman who had proven that he could bat in difficult situations, bat well when team needs to set a total and while chasing also. He has shown that he can handle top quality bowling as well as the scoreboard pressure although he was never as good as Kohli and Dhoni in later. Last part where Sachin has proven to be way ahead of others is his performances in ODI World cups and tournament finals. No matter what his form was before WC, he performed way better than others in world in world cup. He was also key player in winning many tournament finals for India. What's great is that all three have been special in different ways, but SRT somewhat defines the complete batsmanship in ODIs. He was much better performer in this format of game than he was in tests. Sidhoni 1 Link to comment
kira Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 17 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Records of all batsmen in first inning since Kohli's debut: Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 2008-2012 21 21 2 1226 200* 64.52 1266 96.84 6 3 0 128 21 MS Dhoni (INDIA) 2008-2017 76 74 17 3332 139* 58.45 3554 93.75 5 23 1 263 75 AB de Villiers (SA) 2008-2016 80 77 8 4015 162* 58.18 3658 109.75 14 20 1 296 110 HM Amla (SA) 2008-2016 81 81 6 4341 159 57.88 4703 92.30 18 18 2 432 30 V Sehwag (INDIA) 2008-2012 28 28 0 1609 219 57.46 1264 127.29 5 6 0 211 34 IJL Trott (ENG) 2009-2013 32 31 3 1608 137 57.42 2017 79.72 3 12 2 123 0 LRPL Taylor (NZ) 2008-2016 68 68 9 3009 131* 51.00 3595 83.69 10 15 3 222 62 JE Root (ENG) 2013-2017 39 38 1 1878 125 50.75 2083 90.15 6 11 1 151 21 KC Sangakkara (SL) 2008-2015 95 93 7 4332 169 50.37 5272 82.16 9 32 4 399 36 JP Duminy (SA) 2008-2016 75 70 15 2642 150* 48.03 2786 94.83 4 17 1 170 51 Q de Kock (SA) 2013-2016 38 38 2 1714 135 47.61 1968 87.09 8 5 0 196 17 KS Williamson (NZ) 2010-2016 58 57 4 2523 145* 47.60 2926 86.22 5 17 3 249 16 RG Sharma (INDIA) 2008-2016 53 52 6 2188 264 47.56 2419 90.45 7 8 4 182 63 Yuvraj Singh (INDIA) 2008-2017 37 36 3 1498 150 45.39 1512 99.07 6 6 6 167 42 TM Dilshan (SL) 2008-2016 95 95 7 3994 161* 45.38 4666 85.59 10 21 4 455 17 Misbah-ul-Haq (PAK) 2008-2015 61 59 11 2177 96* 45.35 3088 70.49 0 21 2 105 34 MN Samuels (WI) 2011-2016 38 38 5 1463 133* 44.33 1943 75.29 6 5 2 130 29 DA Warner (AUS) 2009-2017 54 54 1 2347 178 44.28 2519 93.17 8 9 2 237 40 MEK Hussey (AUS) 2008-2012 61 61 8 2322 108 43.81 2504 92.73 1 19 0 145 33 GJ Bailey (AUS) 2012-2016 53 53 5 2084 156 43.41 2342 88.98 2 17 2 151 50 DA Miller (SA) 2010-2016 54 53 16 1596 138* 43.13 1487 107.33 2 7 3 123 46 MJ Clarke (AUS) 2008-2015 67 66 6 2556 117 42.60 3303 77.38 4 16 1 193 17 SPD Smith (AUS) 2010-2017 48 45 5 1702 164 42.55 1931 88.14 4 10 3 145 21 SE Marsh (AUS) 2008-2016 26 26 0 1100 151 42.30 1420 77.46 3 5 2 94 13 Mohammad Hafeez (PAK) 2010-2017 64 64 5 2492 140* 42.23 3130 79.61 7 13 5 229 45 AD Mathews (SL) 2008-2016 96 90 21 2905 139* 42.10 3372 86.15 1 21 7 209 55 S Dhawan (INDIA) 2011-2017 31 31 0 1275 137 41.12 1447 88.11 4 7 0 149 14 V Kohli (INDIA) 2008-2017 75 74 4 2877 138 41.10 3326 86.50 10 15 6 237 22 MJ Guptill (NZ) 2009-2016 73 73 4 2807 237* 40.68 3361 83.51 5 18 6 283 63 F du Plessis (SA) 2011-2016 54 52 5 1912 133* 40.68 2248 85.05 4 13 1 145 29 JC Buttler (ENG) 2013-2017 39 38 6 1297 129 40.53 1007 128.79 3 5 3 105 53 lol sachin even near the end of his career averages 64.5 with 6 centuries and he is even a notch above abdv, this should settle this debate for good, Sachin is the one and only GOAT, peak sachin would've averaged in the 80s in this batting friendly era, forget about kohli, abdv who? Link to comment
Gambit Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Records in World Cups and Champions Trophy (against non-minnows) Innings Runs Avg S/R 100s 50s Tendulkar 42 1806 46.3 83.9 4 11 Kohli 17 594 42.4 80.9 1 3 Dhoni 17 450 32.1 90 0 3 Records in World Cups and Champions Trophy in KNOCKOUT matches (against non-minnows) Innings Runs Avg S/R 100s 50s Tendulkar 13 574 47.8 80.6 1 4 Kohli 6 170 34 79.4 0 1 Dhoni 5 188 47 94.9 0 2 Tendulkar still leads the other two in the biggest ODI tournaments overall and in knockout games. velu 1 Link to comment
Malcolm Merlyn Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: Records of all batsmen in first inning since Kohli's debut: Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 2008-2012 21 21 2 1226 200* 64.52 1266 96.84 6 3 0 128 21 MS Dhoni (INDIA) 2008-2017 76 74 17 3332 139* 58.45 3554 93.75 5 23 1 263 75 AB de Villiers (SA) 2008-2016 80 77 8 4015 162* 58.18 3658 109.75 14 20 1 296 110 HM Amla (SA) 2008-2016 81 81 6 4341 159 57.88 4703 92.30 18 18 2 432 30 V Sehwag (INDIA) 2008-2012 28 28 0 1609 219 57.46 1264 127.29 5 6 0 211 34 IJL Trott (ENG) 2009-2013 32 31 3 1608 137 57.42 2017 79.72 3 12 2 123 0 LRPL Taylor (NZ) 2008-2016 68 68 9 3009 131* 51.00 3595 83.69 10 15 3 222 62 JE Root (ENG) 2013-2017 39 38 1 1878 125 50.75 2083 90.15 6 11 1 151 21 KC Sangakkara (SL) 2008-2015 95 93 7 4332 169 50.37 5272 82.16 9 32 4 399 36 JP Duminy (SA) 2008-2016 75 70 15 2642 150* 48.03 2786 94.83 4 17 1 170 51 Q de Kock (SA) 2013-2016 38 38 2 1714 135 47.61 1968 87.09 8 5 0 196 17 KS Williamson (NZ) 2010-2016 58 57 4 2523 145* 47.60 2926 86.22 5 17 3 249 16 RG Sharma (INDIA) 2008-2016 53 52 6 2188 264 47.56 2419 90.45 7 8 4 182 63 Yuvraj Singh (INDIA) 2008-2017 37 36 3 1498 150 45.39 1512 99.07 6 6 6 167 42 TM Dilshan (SL) 2008-2016 95 95 7 3994 161* 45.38 4666 85.59 10 21 4 455 17 Misbah-ul-Haq (PAK) 2008-2015 61 59 11 2177 96* 45.35 3088 70.49 0 21 2 105 34 MN Samuels (WI) 2011-2016 38 38 5 1463 133* 44.33 1943 75.29 6 5 2 130 29 DA Warner (AUS) 2009-2017 54 54 1 2347 178 44.28 2519 93.17 8 9 2 237 40 MEK Hussey (AUS) 2008-2012 61 61 8 2322 108 43.81 2504 92.73 1 19 0 145 33 GJ Bailey (AUS) 2012-2016 53 53 5 2084 156 43.41 2342 88.98 2 17 2 151 50 DA Miller (SA) 2010-2016 54 53 16 1596 138* 43.13 1487 107.33 2 7 3 123 46 MJ Clarke (AUS) 2008-2015 67 66 6 2556 117 42.60 3303 77.38 4 16 1 193 17 SPD Smith (AUS) 2010-2017 48 45 5 1702 164 42.55 1931 88.14 4 10 3 145 21 SE Marsh (AUS) 2008-2016 26 26 0 1100 151 42.30 1420 77.46 3 5 2 94 13 Mohammad Hafeez (PAK) 2010-2017 64 64 5 2492 140* 42.23 3130 79.61 7 13 5 229 45 AD Mathews (SL) 2008-2016 96 90 21 2905 139* 42.10 3372 86.15 1 21 7 209 55 S Dhawan (INDIA) 2011-2017 31 31 0 1275 137 41.12 1447 88.11 4 7 0 149 14 V Kohli (INDIA) 2008-2017 75 74 4 2877 138 41.10 3326 86.50 10 15 6 237 22 MJ Guptill (NZ) 2009-2016 73 73 4 2807 237* 40.68 3361 83.51 5 18 6 283 63 F du Plessis (SA) 2011-2016 54 52 5 1912 133* 40.68 2248 85.05 4 13 1 145 29 JC Buttler (ENG) 2013-2017 39 38 6 1297 129 40.53 1007 128.79 3 5 3 105 53 21 matches is a very small sample. This getting into lahori logic territory. Link to comment
Malcolm Merlyn Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, Gambit said: Records in World Cups and Champions Trophy (against non-minnows) Innings Runs Avg S/R 100s 50s Tendulkar 42 1806 46.3 83.9 4 11 Kohli 17 594 42.4 80.9 1 3 Dhoni 17 450 32.1 90 0 3 Records in World Cups and Champions Trophy in KNOCKOUT matches (against non-minnows) Innings Runs Avg S/R 100s 50s Tendulkar 13 574 47.8 80.6 1 4 Kohli 6 170 34 79.4 0 1 Dhoni 5 188 47 94.9 0 2 Tendulkar still leads the other two in the biggest ODI tournaments overall and in knockout games. While Kohli is yet to light up in a knock out game of a WC or CT for India,Dhoni played the single most important innings in India's ODI history. Sidhoni 1 Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said: 21 matches is a very small sample. This getting into lahori logic territory. There are 48 others names also in that list and point was 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: Far ahead is exaggeration when you think that Kohli isn't even a great while batting first. Average of 41 with SR of 85 while batting first is hardly top batsman effort in this era. This doesn't look good when you consider that this is peak of his form. Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 22 minutes ago, Gambit said: Records in World Cups and Champions Trophy (against non-minnows) Innings Runs Avg S/R 100s 50s Tendulkar 42 1806 46.3 83.9 4 11 Kohli 17 594 42.4 80.9 1 3 Dhoni 17 450 32.1 90 0 3 Records in World Cups and Champions Trophy in KNOCKOUT matches (against non-minnows) Innings Runs Avg S/R 100s 50s Tendulkar 13 574 47.8 80.6 1 4 Kohli 6 170 34 79.4 0 1 Dhoni 5 188 47 94.9 0 2 Tendulkar still leads the other two in the biggest ODI tournaments overall and in knockout games. With Tendulkar in side you get the best batsman in the team while with Kohli you get best chaser and with Dhoni you get best WK-batsman-finisher in the team. GoldenSun 1 Link to comment
Malcolm Merlyn Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: There are 48 others names also in that list and point was Avg of 41 with SR isnt a top batsman efffort?Its a mighty good effort. What about avg of 42 @88? is that a top effort? Link to comment
Trichromatic Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said: Avg of 41 with SR isnt a top batsman efffort?Its a mighty good effort. What about avg of 42 @88? is that a top effort? Good but not good enough when you're debating about best batsman in Indian and world and certainly not when you're eclipsed by 35 other batsmen of your era. Avg of 42 @88, if that is among top 10 or top 15 in world and that too when most of the batsman above you are 15 years ahead and in completely different era of match conditions then certainly you're among top batsman. Link to comment
kira Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 29 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said: While Kohli is yet to light up in a knock out game of a WC or CT for India,Dhoni played the single most important innings in India's ODI history. nah, you are confusing dhoni with gambhir Link to comment
Gambit Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 47 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said: While Kohli is yet to light up in a knock out game of a WC or CT for India,Dhoni played the single most important innings in India's ODI history. That would be Kapil Dev's 175*. express bowling 1 Link to comment
Malcolm Merlyn Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Gambit said: That would be Kapil Dev's 175*. I would take a MOM performance in a WC final over 175 of Kapil Dev, SRT100 1 Link to comment
Malcolm Merlyn Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 24 minutes ago, kira said: nah, you are confusing dhoni with gambhir Anyone will tell you who the MoM was. Link to comment
kira Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said: Anyone will tell you who the MoM was. That's some lahori logic right there Link to comment
Malcolm Merlyn Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 29 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Good but not good enough when you're debating about best batsman in Indian and world and certainly not when you're eclipsed by 35 other batsmen of your era. Avg of 42 @88, if that is among top 10 or top 15 in world and that too when most of the batsman above you are 15 years ahead and in completely different era of match conditions then certainly you're among top batsman. Top class stuff this? Link to comment
Malcolm Merlyn Posted January 21, 2017 Author Share Posted January 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, kira said: That's some lahori logic right there Tell that to the country which celebrated winning the WC in 2011. Link to comment
kira Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said: Tell that to the country which celebrated winning the WC in 2011. Yeah, thanks to gambhir. Dhoni's innings was useful but no where near gambhir's effort, poor gambo was robbed that night Link to comment
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