Yoda-esque Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 9 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Every thread is turning out to be a troll war between LLWs - lord of last words! How do I block people? The need to put in the last word by bringing in irrelevant facts is annoying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 6 hours ago, zen said: I will take that as you accepting that there was a certain amount of confusion about Tibet's status from 1913 .... Though, Dalai Lama, who issued the declaration of independence, and people of Tibet, to whom it was issued, would be active players Then you'd be demonstrating further proof of your comprehension issues. Saying we should support someone IF they declare independence but can't do **** till they do, doesnt mean there is any murkiness to the issue on their status. Anyone can declare independence officially and anyone can support them. Quote On the subject of Tibet, you are towing the Chinese line blindly, while I am towing the Tibet line which a proactive and prudent statesman would do (Sardar Patel for example) That is what the BJP Koolaid is doing to you. Tibet is quite simply, game, set and match to China. Entire WORLD sees so. Which is why the entire WORLD accepts Tibet as China's and did back in the 1950s- including the western world who saw the Chinese as evil commies. Because until Tibet declares independence, there is nothing anyone from the outside can do. Quote And with that line of thinking, it does not matter "how" Tibet issued its declaration of independence (so it is hilarious what you wrote on that). Even a letter to Ind from Dalai Lama should encourage Ind to take some action Sorry, that is amateur thinking. It decisively matters if a nation formally declares independence or not, clearly indicated by the fact that the world is 100% accepting of Tibet as China's property. Quote /check and mate (for the umpteenth time) Quote My friend, once I realized that you would act like a fraud after the declaration of independence was presented, I improvised my approach to solving this What you should've realized instead, is YOU are the fraud, passing off something for a declaration of independence when it is not. There is no wiggle room on this, as i said, every single country in the last 200 years to've become independent without its Sovereign's consent has a declaration of independence. That is, for example, the difference between Ireland and Bahrain. Ireland broke away from UK and it has its independence declaration (Balfour declaration). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 1, 2017 Author Share Posted March 1, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Then you'd be demonstrating further proof of your comprehension issues. Saying we should support someone IF they declare independence but can't do **** till they do, doesnt mean there is any murkiness to the issue on their status. Anyone can declare independence officially and anyone can support them. That is what the BJP Koolaid is doing to you. Tibet is quite simply, game, set and match to China. Entire WORLD sees so. Which is why the entire WORLD accepts Tibet as China's and did back in the 1950s- including the western world who saw the Chinese as evil commies. Because until Tibet declares independence, there is nothing anyone from the outside can do. Sorry, that is amateur thinking. It decisively matters if a nation formally declares independence or not, clearly indicated by the fact that the world is 100% accepting of Tibet as China's property. What you should've realized instead, is YOU are the fraud, passing off something for a declaration of independence when it is not. There is no wiggle room on this, as i said, every single country in the last 200 years to've become independent without its Sovereign's consent has a declaration of independence. That is, for example, the difference between Ireland and Bahrain. Ireland broke away from UK and it has its independence declaration (Balfour declaration). Discussion is over dude so will not bother to "read" that (skimmed it ) As for your dumb points, reminds me of the losers who create various clauses to "not do the job" .... The cowards who quore created clauses to show how their hands are tied (scumbags of the highest order) .... Judging by how you try to debate on literal meaning of something used figuratively, you appear to be one of that group too! PS you sound like the Subodh guy in the video: I guess people should people be drinking 2ml of orange juice, tilting their pen at 30 degrees angle and standing on 1 leg before signing the declaration too or it would not counted Edited March 1, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 1 hour ago, zen said: Discussion is over dude so will not bother to "read" that (skimmed it ) As for your dumb points, reminds me of the losers who create various clauses to "not do the job" .... The cowards who quore created clauses to show how their hands are tied (scumbags of the highest order) .... Judging by how you try to debate on literal meaning of something used figuratively, you appear to be one of that group too! Its painfully obvious you don't bother to read. And when people point out to you that you are making things up as you go, what you are saying is not a valid position according to international law, which is why NOBODY holds it, makes it 'dumb points, losers, etc.' Quote I guess people should people be drinking 2ml of orange juice, tilting their pen at 30 degrees angle and standing on 1 leg before signing the declaration too or it would not counte No, but they do have to OFFICIALLY FILE & DECLARE IT. Do you even know what it means ? No, you don't. Which is why you are arguing why the standard followed by EVERY SINGLE RECOGNIZED NATION IN THE LAST HUNDERD YEARS, should not apply to Tibet. As i said, keep drinking more hinduvta kool-aid and chutiyapa, when confronted with actual facts, you hinduvta just run the hell away while hurling curses PS: I know you have need for tu-tu-main-main. Which is why you will always post to have last word. But as we can all see, you are the one making ridiculous points and won;t answer simple questions as show me which nation considers that speech to be a valid declaration of independence, now or at any point in history. But you won't find a SINGLE official document from a nation addressing Tibet as sovereign or even having declared independence, because it didnt. So keep running, i will keep reminding you of your homework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 13 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Its painfully obvious you don't bother to read. And when people point out to you that you are making things up as you go, what you are saying is not a valid position according to international law, which is why NOBODY holds it, makes it 'dumb points, losers, etc.' No, but they do have to OFFICIALLY FILE & DECLARE IT. Do you even know what it means ? No, you don't. Which is why you are arguing why the standard followed by EVERY SINGLE RECOGNIZED NATION IN THE LAST HUNDERD YEARS, should not apply to Tibet. As i said, keep drinking more hinduvta kool-aid and chutiyapa, when confronted with actual facts, you hinduvta just run the hell away while hurling curses PS: I know you have need for tu-tu-main-main. Which is why you will always post to have last word. But as we can all see, you are the one making ridiculous points and won;t answer simple questions as show me which nation considers that speech to be a valid declaration of independence, now or at any point in history. But you won't find a SINGLE official document from a nation addressing Tibet as sovereign or even having declared independence, because it didnt. So keep running, i will keep reminding you of your homework. ^ And declaration filed on a Sunday is invalid because the chaprasi is on holiday .... Yeah, blame Hindutva for everything and not the commie's love for communist China .... I m not sure even you are convinced with your arguments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 5 hours ago, zen said: ^ And declaration filed on a Sunday is invalid because the chaprasi is on holiday .... Yeah, blame Hindutva for everything and not the commie's love for communist China .... I m not sure even you are convinced with your arguments Yeah the whole world is commie and nobody recognizes Tibet, no nation even acknowledges Tibet declaring independence because they are all commies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Yeah the whole world is commie and nobody recognizes Tibet, no nation even acknowledges Tibet declaring independence because they are all commies. Ofc, there is no document declaring independence written when having 2ml of orange juice, pen tilted at 30 degrees angle and by standing on one leg Legal Materials on TibetTreaties and Conventions Relating to Tibet Treaty of Friendship and Alliance Between the Government of Mongolia and Tibet (1913) [397] TREATY OF FRIENDSHIP AND ALLIANCE Concluded Between the Government of Mongolia and Tibet at Urga 29 December 1912 (11 January 1913) (translation of the Tibetan text) Mongolia and Thibet, having freed themselves from the dynasty of the Manchus and separated from China, have formed their own independent States, and, having in view that both States from time immemorial have professed one and the same religion, with a view to strengthening their historic and mutual friendship the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Nikta Biliktu Da-Lama Rabdan, and the Assistant Minister, General and Manlai baatyr beiseh Damdinsurun, as plenipotentiaries of the Government of the ruler of the Mongol people, and gudjir tsanshib kanchen-Lubsan-Agvan, donir Agvan Choinzin, director of the Bank Ishichjamtso, and the clerk Gendun Galsan, as plenipotentiaries of the Dalai Lama, the ruler of Thibet,'have made the following agreement. Article 1. The ruler of Thibet, Dalai Lama, approves and recognizes the formation of an independent Mongol State, and the proclamation, in the year of the pig and the ninth day of the eleventh month, of Chjebzun Damba Lama of the yellow faith as ruler of the country. Article 2. The ruler of the Mongol people, Chjebzun Damba Lama, approves and recognizes the formation of an independent (Thibetan) State and the proclamation of the Dalai Lama as ruler of Thibet. Article 3. Both States will work by joint consideration for the well-being of the Buddhist faith. Article 4. Both States, Mongolia and Thibet, from now and for all time will afford each other assistance against external and internal dangers. Article 5. Each State within its own territory will afford assistance to the subjects of the other travelling officially or privately on affairs of religion or State. Article 6. Both States, Mongolia and Thibet, as formerly, will carry on a reciprocal trade in the products of their respective countries in wares, cattle, &c., and will also open industrial establishments. Article 7. From now the granting of credit to anyone will be permitted only with the knowledge and sanction of official institutions. Without such sanction Government institutions will not consider claims. As regards contracts made previous to the conclusion of the present treaty, where serious loss is being incurred through the inability of the two parties to come to terms, such debts may be recovered by (Government) institutions, but in no case shall the debt concern "shabinars" or "khoshuns." Article 8. Should it prove necessary to supplement the articles of the present treaty, the Mongolian and Thibetan Governments must appoint special delegates, who will conclude such agreements as the conditions of the time shall demand. Article 9. The present treaty shall come into force from the date of its signature. Plenipotentiaries from the Mongolian Government for the conclusion of the treaty: Nikta Biliktu Da-Lama Rabdan, Minister for Foreign Affairs; and General and Manlai baatyr beiseh Damdinsurun, Assistant Minister. Plenipotentiaries from the Dalai Lama, the ruler of Thibet, for the conclusion of the treaty: Gudjir tsanshib kanchen Lubsan-Agvan, Choinzin, the Director of the Bank of Thibet Ishichjamtsa, and the clerk, Gendun-Galsan. Signed (by Mongol reckoning) in the fourth day of the twelfth month of the second year of the "Raised by the Many," and by Thibetan reckoning on the same day and month of the year of the "water-mouse." Notes 1. Source: FO 535/16, No. 88, Inclosure 1, 1913. Reproduced from M. C. van Walt van Praag's Status of Tibet: History, Rights and Prospects in International Law. With permission of the author. So what is wrong with the above - let me guess, Mongolia is a country located on Mars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, zen said: Ofc, there is no document declaring independence written when having 2ml of orange juice, pen tilted at 30 degrees angle and by standing on one leg So what is wrong with the above - let me guess, Mongolia is a country located on Mars Nothing is wrong with Mongolia. Mongolia followed protocol of EVERY OTHER NATION and declared independence. Tibet did not. Simple. No matter how many times you talk of Orange Juice, it won't change the fact that every country which has been recognized as independent without the permission of its sovereign, has declared independence officially, in the last 100+ years. Tibet did not, which is why no nation has ever addressed Tibet as a sovereign in the last 200 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_Revolution_of_1911#/media/File:Mongolia_letter_of_independence_1912_p1.png Here is the official declaration of Mongolian independence, which was submitted to various foreign ministries. Now show us such a document for Tibet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_Revolution_of_1911#/media/File:Mongolia_letter_of_independence_1912_p1.png Here is the official declaration of Mongolian independence, which was submitted to various foreign ministries. Now show us such a document for Tibet. Tibet did submit to Mongolia for example .... That's why there is a treaty PS again, Treaty of Friendship and Alliance Between the Government of Mongolia and Tibet (1913) [397] TREATY OF FRIENDSHIP AND ALLIANCE Concluded Between the Government of Mongolia and Tibet at Urga 29 December 1912 (11 January 1913) (translation of the Tibetan text) Mongolia and Thibet, having freed themselves from the dynasty of the Manchus and separated from China, have formed their own independent States, and, having in view that both States from time immemorial have professed one and the same religion, with a view to strengthening their historic and mutual friendship the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Nikta Biliktu Da-Lama Rabdan, and the Assistant Minister, General and Manlai baatyr beiseh Damdinsurun, as plenipotentiaries of the Government of the ruler of the Mongol people, and gudjir tsanshib kanchen-Lubsan-Agvan, donir Agvan Choinzin, director of the Bank Ishichjamtso, and the clerk Gendun Galsan, as plenipotentiaries of the Dalai Lama, the ruler of Thibet,'have made the following agreement. Edited March 2, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, zen said: Tibet did submit to Mongolia for example .... That's why there is a treaty PS again, Again, Tibet did not submit a formal declaration of independence with Mongolia or any other nation. A treaty mentioning both parties as free, is not an official document of independence. Try the one Mongolia submitted to multiple foreign ministries. Something like that is required and Tibet did not meet the requirement. No amount of Hinduvta kool-aid will change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Again, Tibet did not submit a formal declaration of independence with Mongolia or any other nation. A treaty mentioning both parties as free, is not an official document of independence. Try the one Mongolia submitted to multiple foreign ministries. Something like that is required and Tibet did not meet the requirement. No amount of Hinduvta kool-aid will change that. A quick question - Can you translate the below? Edited March 2, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I think I can join this debate too. Random Bollywood scenes and hieroglyphics ftw. @ zen @ mulo What do you have to say about this? Sabse bada shikari kaun hai? Can you decipher the answer from this? Roald Dalh once said Come with me and you'll be In a world of pure imagination Take a look and you'll see Into your imagination We'll begin with a spin Trav'ling in the world of my creation What we'll see will defy Explanation BeautifulGame 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 3 hours ago, zen said: A quick question - Can you translate the below? Again, irrelevant. This is the official document. Translation of it exists, and it follows the LEGAL REQUIREMENT EVERY SINGLE NATION DECLARING INDEPENDENCE OVER THE OBJECTION OF ITS SOVEREIGN. Ie, it contains a declaration from the office of the government, sent to multiple foreign governments, stating they are declaring independence. Tibet produced no such document, which is why NO COUNTRY EVER RECOGNIZED IT AS INDEPENDENT in the last 200+ YEARS! No matter how much you want to twist and turn, these are the facts. Not what the hinduvta idiots have been feeding you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Muloghonto said: Again, irrelevant. This is the official document. Translation of it exists, and it follows the LEGAL REQUIREMENT EVERY SINGLE NATION DECLARING INDEPENDENCE OVER THE OBJECTION OF ITS SOVEREIGN. Ie, it contains a declaration from the office of the government, sent to multiple foreign governments, stating they are declaring independence Ok, so you can't read it Quote Tibet produced no such document, which is why NO COUNTRY EVER RECOGNIZED IT AS INDEPENDENT in the last 200+ YEARS! No matter how much you want to twist and turn, these are the facts. Not what the hinduvta idiots have been feeding you. It does not matter if Tibet produced a letter of declaration like you want ... As already proved, the is irrelevant to the discussion on Nehru messed up on Tibet .... But the discussion on Tibet's independence can be continued as a separate topic You say no country recognized Tibet as independent when Mongolia did recognize it as independent! Again: "Treaty of Friendship and Alliance Between the Government of Mongolia and Tibet (1913) [397] TREATY OF FRIENDSHIP AND ALLIANCE Concluded Between the Government of Mongolia and Tibet at Urga 29 December 1912 (11 January 1913) (translation of the Tibetan text) Mongolia and Thibet, having freed themselves from the dynasty of the Manchus and separated from China, have formed their own independent States, and, having in view that both States from time immemorial have professed one and the same religion, with a view to strengthening their historic and mutual friendship the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Nikta Biliktu Da-Lama Rabdan, and the Assistant Minister, General and Manlai baatyr beiseh Damdinsurun, as plenipotentiaries of the Government of the ruler of the Mongol people, and gudjir tsanshib kanchen-Lubsan-Agvan, donir Agvan Choinzin, director of the Bank Ishichjamtso, and the clerk Gendun Galsan, as plenipotentiaries of the Dalai Lama, the ruler of Thibet,'have made the following agreement." Edited March 2, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, zen said: Ok, so you can't read it It does not matter if Tibet produced a letter of declaration like you want ... As already proved, the is irrelevant to the discussion on Nehru messed up on Tibet .... But the discussion on Tibet's independence can be continued as a separate topic It does matter. And its already proven it matters, since no country recognized Tibet's independence, including Japan, China's mortal enemy of 100 years ago. You can make whatever claims you like, but nobody takes you seriously, because you don't have a clue on what you are talking about. Tibet was messed up by Dalai Llama. If he'd declared independence, then i'd be all for Nehru jumping in and creating a buffer state between us and China. But he did not, so Nehru is not at fault here, the Dalai Llama is. And what makes him even more at fault, is he has consistently said that he does NOT want Tibet's independence, he wants autonomy, similar to Hong Kong's 'one country, two systems' model. So WTF are we supposed to do, when the highest authority of Tibet that is not allied with the communist party (i.e., Dalai Llama) himself is anti-independence ?! Quote You say no country recognized Tibet as independent when Mongolia did recognize it as independent! Again: Err no. Mongolia did not recognize Tibet as independent. There is no official record of Mongolia filing Tibet's declaration (coz there is no declaration from Tibet), no embassy mission of Mongolia to Tibet, nothing. Just one Buddhist monk writing a letter of support to another. Mongolia issued a general proclamation of independence on December 1st, 1911. Tibet never did. This is why the world recognizes Mongolia and not Tibet. The Dalai Llama has subsequently clarified, that he NEVER wanted independence, only autonomy! Edited March 2, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 32 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: It does matter. And its already proven it matters, since no country recognized Tibet's independence, including Japan, China's mortal enemy of 100 years ago. You can make whatever claims you like, but nobody takes you seriously, because you don't have a clue on what you are talking about. Tibet was messed up by Dalai Llama. If he'd declared independence, then i'd be all for Nehru jumping in and creating a buffer state between us and China. But he did not, so Nehru is not at fault here, the Dalai Llama is. And what makes him even more at fault, is he has consistently said that he does NOT want Tibet's independence, he wants autonomy, similar to Hong Kong's 'one country, two systems' model. So WTF are we supposed to do, when the highest authority of Tibet that is not allied with the communist party (i.e., Dalai Llama) himself is anti-independence ?! Err no. Mongolia did not recognize Tibet as independent. There is no official record of Mongolia filing Tibet's declaration (coz there is no declaration from Tibet), no embassy mission of Mongolia to Tibet, nothing. Just one Buddhist monk writing a letter of support to another. Mongolia issued a general proclamation of independence on December 1st, 1911. Tibet never did. This is why the world recognizes Mongolia and not Tibet. The Dalai Llama has subsequently clarified, that he NEVER wanted independence, only autonomy! ^ Another piece of misinformation as Dalai Lama, (I would assume you are referring to the 14th one) has in fact portrayed Tibet as independent. There is UN Resolution on Tibet. How many times do I have to post the below: 1961 Statement of His Holiness the Dalai Lama on the Second Anniversary of the Tibetan National Uprising Day On the 10th of March 1959 the Tibetan people reasserted their Tibetan independence suffering almost nine years of foreign domination. Foreign rule, alas, still continues in Tibet but I know that I am proud to know that the spirit of our people remains uncrushed and unshaken in their resolve to fight on till independence is regained. I know that the struggle, which began a few years ago is still being waged in Tibet against the invader and the oppressor who masquerades under the name and guise of ‘liberator'. I can confidently assert that the civilized world is, every day, becoming more and more aware of those, who, in the name of liberation, are crushing out the freedom of defenceless neighbours. The world has been made aware of the terrible happening in Tibet by the two illuminating reports of the International Commission of Jurists. These reports have pointed out that the Chinese have, ruthlessly, trampled on the elementary human rights of our people, that thousands of our people have been killed for the only reason that they asserted their right to live in the manner they desired to do, following their cultural and religious heritage. The reports have further pointed out that the Chinese have been guilty of genocide by reason of their killing many Tibetans with the intent of destroying the Tibetan religion and by deporting thousands of children to China. The sympathy aroused in the world was evidenced by the fact that the United Nations by their Resolution in 1959 appealed for the cessation of practices depriving the Tibetan people of their fundamental human rights and their traditional autonomy. I assert that it is not autonomy but independence of which we have been deprived. Anyway, so far as the Chinese are concerned, the appeal fell on deaf ears. Things have become worse as is clear from the steady and unceasing flow of refugees from Tibet. As further evidence of that sympathy, we had in New Delhi in April 1960, a Convention by representatives of 19 nations, convened by the respected Indian leader, Shri Jayaprakash Narayan. This Convention brought to the notice of the world the happenings in Tibet. The Afro-Asian Council, established by the Convention sent its representatives to New York to support the Tibetan appeal in the World Assembly in 1960. On behalf of the Tibetan people, I express my sincere thanks to the Afro-Asian Council for the great interest they have taken in our cause and the valuable help they have rendered. I am glad to learn that the Council is deputing Shri Pushottam Trikamdaas to be in New York when the Assembly reconvenes. Shortly the question of Tibet will come up for discussion in the plenary session of the U.N. Assembly. I appeal to the sponsors and to the Assembly to get the Chinese to vacate their aggression and to help restore the independence of Tibet. Any half measures will be of little avail. Our gratitude is due to the federation of Malaya, Thailand, Ireland and El Salvador for sponsoring our cause. May I appeal to India, our great neighbour, which has given refuge to thousands of us, to lend its powerful support to our cause. Recently the United Nations passed a resolution on the declaration of the grant of independence to colonial possessions. Our country, which was till recently independent, has been reduced to the status of a colonial possession. We cannot in any event be denied the right to self-determination. I am aware that the Tibetan people, inside Tibet, are undergoing the travail, that foreign rule brings in its wake. I appeal to them to keep up their spirit and their resolve to regain their independence. On my part, I need hardly say, I am far from happy to be away from my country and my beloved and brave people. I want to tell them that I share with them their hopes and their agony. To the thousands of my countrymen in India, Nepal, Bhutan and Sikkim, I want to say that a heavy responsibility devolves on all of us to prepare ourselves for the day when we can return to our country and build a happier and greater independent Tibet. New Tibet will need thousands of trained and skilled men and women, necessary to bring Tibet in consonance with the spirit of democracy without losing our cultural and religious heritage or our soul. During the Chinese occupation before I was compelled to leave Tibet, the Kashag and myself made efforts to introduce land and other reforms in Tibet but as is well known our efforts were blocked by the Chinese. The Communists are today forcing what they call reforms down the throats of our people. I have given careful consideration to these so-called reforms and I have come to the conclusion that at the end of the reforms the Tibetan people will be reduced to the state of mental and economic serfdom. Such reforms are not in consonance with the Charter of the U.N. nor with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The reforms that I visualise must, while preserving the intellectual, moral and religious freedom, bring about an equitable distribution of wealth of the country. In this connection I shall repeat what I said sometime back in Dalhousie: “In order to make Tibet a rich, strong and vigorous nation, the special privileges and the large estates enjoyed, whether by monasteries or aristocratic families, will have to go and every one will have to learn and live with and help the common people.” I further said, “Changes must come in all spheres. The government structure will also have to undergo far-reaching reforms so that the people are more intimately associated with the policies of the government and the administration of the country. The task and responsibility of establishing improved political and religious institutions lies upon all of us.” I am preparing a draft of the constitutional and economic structure, which I visualise for our country and I shall place it shortly before the representatives of the Tibetan people in India and neighbouring countries for their consideration. Ultimately it will be the whole Tibetan people will have to decide. The world has become very rightly concerned by recent murders in the Congo. I join my voice in condemning these murders whether in the Congo or in Algeria or elsewhere. I would, however, ask the world not to forget that thousands of Tibetans have been and are being killed for the only reason that they refused to accept foreign domination. I want to remind my countrymen inside and outside Tibet that God's ways are inscrutable and the travail of Tibet cannot be to no purpose. The cause of Truth and Justice must prevail and out of this night of horror and suffering a bright day for Tibet and its people is bound to dawn. I want to express my deep gratitude to India, Bhutan, Sikkim and Nepal for the hospitality and the kindness in which we have received from these neighbours of ours. I must also express my gratitude to the various international and Indian institutions and individuals, who have been given generous aide for the relief of our refugees. Since refugees are still pouring in I shall appeal to everyone to continue to help us in the same generous way they have done so far. Finally, I request my people to join me in my prayer for peace in the world. The Dalai Lama March 10, 1961 Recently, Dalai Lama has adapted the "middle way" probably because of having to deal with the likes of Nehru 2nd, taking about UN, Nepal too recognized Tibet as a country in 1949. Nepal application to UN in 1949 lists Tibet as a country: Link All your claims are proving to be false! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, zen said: ^ Another piece of misinformation as Dalai Lama, (I would assume you are referring to the 14th one) has in fact portrayed Tibet as independent. There is UN Resolution on Tibet. How many times do I have to post the below: All your claims are proving to be false! These are not declarations of independence, Which is why i asked you two pages ago to do your homework and find out what declaration of independence are. The Dalai Llama did not declare Tibet independent by the powers vested in him by the people of Tibet, neither did he send copies to various governments worldwide to declare his independence. So it does not count. And in the past 40+ years, the Dalai Llama has consistently said he explicitly wants autonomy for Tibet, not independence. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JK27Ad01.html Plenty of articles and interview like this exist, where the Dalai Llama has stated wants autonomy, nothing more. So nothing you claimed in this thread is true. And the proof,is in the fact that no nation has ever recognized Tibet as independent, has never sent an embassy to Tibet calling it a sovereign embassy, etc. Nepal states that it formed a diplomatic relation with Tibet. Goody. Lots of nations did that and lots of autonomous provinces have done that too. Nowhere does Nepal say it recognizes Tibet as a sovereign, independent nation. Edited March 3, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, Muloghonto said: These are not declarations of independence, Which is why i asked you two pages ago to do your homework and find out what declaration of independence are. The Dalai Llama did not declare Tibet independent by the powers vested in him by the people of Tibet, neither did he send copies to various governments worldwide to declare his independence. So it does not count. 1. Tibet has believed that it is de-facto independent 2. Continuing on the de-facto independent spirit, below is the declaration by the 13th DL (already posted before) Tibetan Declaration of Independence Proclamation Issued by His Holiness the 13th Dalai Lama in 1913 PROCLAMATION ISSUED BY H.H. THE DALAI LAMA XIII, ON THE EIGHTH DAY OF THE FIRST MONTH OF THE WATER-OX YEAR (1913) Translation of the Tibetan Text I, the Dalai Lama, most omniscient possessor of the Buddhist faith, whose title was conferred by the Lord Buddha’s command from the glorious land of India, speak to you as follows: I am speaking to all classes of Tibetan people. Lord Buddha, from the glorious country of India, prophesied that the reincarnations of Avalokitesvara, through successive rulers from the early religious kings to the present day, would look after the welfare of Tibet. During the time of Genghis Khan and Altan Khan of the Mongols, the Ming dynasty of the Chinese, and the Ch’ing Dynasty of the Manchus, Tibet and China cooperated on the basis of benefactor and priest relationship. A few years ago, the Chinese authorities in Szechuan and Yunnan endeavored to colonize our territory. They brought large numbers of troops into central Tibet on the pretext of policing the trade marts. I, therefore, left Lhasa with my ministers for the Indo-Tibetan border, hoping to clarify to the Manchu emperor by wire that the existing relationship between Tibet and China had been that of patron and priest and had not been based on the subordination of one to the other. There was no other choice for me but to cross the border, because Chinese troops were following with the intention of taking me alive or dead. On my arrival in India, I dispatched several telegrams to the Emperor; but his reply to my demands was delayed by corrupt officials at Peking. Meanwhile, the Manchu empire collapsed. The Tibetans were encouraged to expel the Chinese from central Tibet. I, too, returned safely to my rightful and sacred country, and I am now in the course of driving out the remnants of Chinese troops from DoKham in Eastern Tibet. Now, the Chinese intention of colonizing Tibet under the patron-priest relationship has faded like a rainbow in the sky. Having once again achieved for ourselves a period of happiness and peace, I have now allotted to all of you the following duties to be carried out without negligence: 1. Peace and happiness in this world can only be maintained by preserving the faith of Buddhism. It is, therefore, essential to preserve all Buddhist institutions in Tibet, such as the Jokhang temple and Ramoche in Lhasa, Samye, and Traduk in southern Tibet, and the three great monasteries, etc. 2. The various Buddhist sects in Tibet should be kept in a distinct and pure form. Buddhism should be taught, learned, and meditated upon properly. Except for special persons, the administrators of monasteries are forbidden to trade, loan money, deal in any kind of livestock, and/or subjugate another’s subjects. 3. The Tibetan government’s civil and military officials, when collecting taxes or dealing with their subject citizens, should carry out their duties with fair and honest judgment so as to benefit the government without hurting the interests of the subject citizens. Some of the central government officials posted at Ngari Korsum in western Tibet, and Do Kham in eastern Tibet, are coercing their subject citizens to purchase commercial goods at high prices and have imposed transportation rights exceeding the limit permitted by the government. Houses, properties and lands belonging to subject citizens have been confiscated on the pretext of minor breaches of the law. Furthermore, the amputation of citizens’ limbs has been carried out as a form of punishment. Henceforth, such severe punishments are forbidden. 4. Tibet is a country with rich natural resources; but it is not scientifically advanced like other lands. We are a small, religious, and independent nation. To keep up with the rest of the world, we must defend our country. In view of past invasions by foreigners, our people may have to face certain difficulties, which they must disregard. To safeguard and maintain the independence of our country, one and all should voluntarily work hard. Our subject citizens residing near the borders should be alert and keep the government informed by special messenger of any suspicious developments. Our subjects must not create major clashes between two nations because of minor incidents. 5. Tibet, although thinly populated, is an extensive country. Some local officials and landholders are jealously obstructing other people from developing vacant lands, even though they are not doing so themselves. People with such intentions are enemies of the State and our progress. From now on, no one is allowed to obstruct anyone else from cultivating whatever vacant lands are available. Land taxes will not be collected until three years have passed; after that the land cultivator will have to pay taxes to the government and to the landlord every year, proportionate to the rent. The land will belong to the cultivator. Your duties to the government and to the people will have been achieved when you have executed all that I have said here. This letter must be posted and proclaimed in every district of Tibet, and a copy kept in the records of the offices in every district. From the Potala Palace. (Seal of the Dalai Lama) Source (and further reading): Tibet: A Political History, Tsepon W.D. Shagapda, New Haven, 1967, pp. 246-248. Quote And in the past 40+ years, the Dalai Llama has consistently said he explicitly wants autonomy for Tibet, not independence. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JK27Ad01.html Plenty of articles and interview like this exist, where the Dalai Llama has stated wants autonomy, nothing more. Tibet is fighting for its independence from China for much longer. Already posted that after being let down by politicians such as Nehru, DL appears to have compromised to the "mid-way" approach Quote So nothing you claimed in this thread is true. And the proof,is in the fact that no nation has ever recognized Tibet as independent, has never sent an embassy to Tibet calling it a sovereign embassy, etc. Nepal states that it formed a diplomatic relation with Tibet. Goody. Lots of nations did that and lots of autonomous provinces have done that too. Nowhere does Nepal say it recognizes Tibet as a sovereign, independent nation. Already talked about Mongolia and Nepal. The latter stated Tibet as a country in its application (already posted and highlighted that info in yellow in the very post that you responded to) Again Now this is not an exercise in trying to prove anything to you, but an exercise is trying to see how many conditions you can come up to make yourself feel that you are still in this, a sign of someone conducting a face saving exercise PS Let's summarize your points (conditions) and my counter points: Tibet does not see itself as independent -> countered with DL's speech, UN resolution, letters to Nehru, Tibetans celebrating independence day on Feb 13th, Tibet's govt in exile Independence or its intent does not count unless a letter of declaration is available -> countered by presenting the letter of declaration by the 13th DL in 1913 The letter posted has to have the word independence in it -> countered by pointing out the words in the letter and the title itself says letter of declaration of "independence" The letter of declaration is not valid, no country recognized Tibet as independent -> countered by providing info that Mongolia did a treaty with Tibet That treaty with Mongolia does not count as it is done by some priests -> Countered by posting letter with official seals. Another country that recognized Tibet was Nepal .... and DL is considered like a priest too Nepal does not list Tibet as a country in the application -> countered by pointing out that the UN application of Nepal clearly lists Tibet among "countries" where it has diplomatic relations (and when those were highlighted in yellow in the post you responded to so there was no need by you to even make such points in the first place) DL in the past 40 years or so has asked for autonomy -> countered by the fact that Tibet has been fighting for its independence for much longer and DL has changed his approach after being let down by politicians such as Nehru who failed to stand up for Tibet So let's see some more childish points from you. You dug and continue to dig your own grave Edited March 3, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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