Michael Holding - Pandya is not next Kapil Dev

[R!TTER]

Just now, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Kuldeep n jadeja cant even score that 

Jadeja is the worst batsman in these condition ..........

 

U need batting not bowling so u need to wakeup n check the scoreboard n check the match....coz he showed more application then any batsman 

these 20-30.....1st get the batsman who cud even score these many 

Yeah and what about his Lords match winnings 2nd innings knock or Mohali against SA, next year at the same venue vs Eng, Dharamshala against Aus? They were all seam friendly wickets, even if slower than Lords

 

Sure but again he's not an Ar/R if he's not picking up any wickets. If he's better than the batsmen as you say then he should replace one of them in the top 6, we'll still need someone to clean up the tail especially on flat tracks.

 

Classic whataboutery 

[R!TTER]

Just now, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Pandya 90+ in SA says hi 

 

Every players plays a diff role for his team, we sll surely like pandya to reach stokes level but it ll take time......stokes himself has struggled in earlier days. Remeber last time when he India came his score were 0,0,0 .....surely pandya isnt doing worse

That's one innings followed by 7 failures, I'm sure you can do better than that.

 

Stokes actually had a very good series with the bat, it was in England 2014 where he failed with the bat. He still picked up crucial wickets though.

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, R!TTER said:

That's one innings followed by 7 failures, I'm sure you can do better than that.

In Sa other werent even having that one pass and those are guys who came with batting reputation

In last 2 innings, he did more then number

1 minute ago, R!TTER said:

 

Stokes actually had a very good series with the bat, it was in England 2014 where he failed with the bat. He still picked up crucial wickets though.

 

4 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Yeah and what about his Lords match winnings 2nd innings knock or Mohali against SA, next year at the same venue vs Eng, Dharamshala against Aus? They were all seam friendly wickets, even if slower than Lords

Indian condition

Did u look at lords innings, it was slogging that came off and which never came of over agian in overseas

Ur telling that better then Pandya SA innings 

4 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Sure but again he's not an Ar/R if he's not picking up any wickets. If he's better than the batsmen as you say then he should replace one of them in the top 6, we'll still need someone to clean up the tail especially on flat tracks.

 

Classic whataboutery 

he cnt pick wkts by not bowling or bowling less

Those batsman have just been batsman of name since Sa, atleast this guy has done something

Surely u like jst a name on paper not perfomances 

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

 

Sure but again he's not an Ar/R if he's not picking up any wickets. I

please tell me u dnt watch test cricket, coz @Khota doesnt we all knw

Coz u have no idea what happ in 2013-14 with 4 bowlers n how team mnmgt decided to have this 5th option starting with binny n pandya 

If u didnt see..............go check those test matches

[zen]

I don’t want Pandya to be the next Dev as Kapil was an underachiever in my book. For e.g. I found him to be one of the best batsmen around who could have averaged in 40s. While his bowling record in Aus is great, he could have done relatively better in other countries as well where conditions would have suited him

 

Pandya is a cricketer who plays above his potential and is constantly improving. He likes to win so does not give up easily. On good batting surfaces, he can hit 100s. On difficult batting surfaces, he applies and tries to control himself, seem to have learned from his experiences in SA where he was trying to play a great inning every time he walked in

 

While based on image, Pandya may appear like a hare to Kapil’s turtle, in terms of consistency,relatively speaking, with the bat, he might well turn out to be the turtle. His bowling is improving as well. As a fielder, he is already in the top bracket

 

Need more of such players!

Edited August 5, 2018 by zen

[R!TTER]

Just now, Ankit_sharma03 said:

In Sa other werent even having that one pass and those are guys who came with batting reputation

In last 2 innings, he did more then number

 

Indian condition

Did u look at lords innings, it was slogging that came off and which never came of over agian in overseas

he cnt pick wkts by not bowling or bowling less

Those batsman have just been batsman of name since Sa, atleast this guy has done something

Surely u like jst a name on paper not perfomances 

SA is just the worst place for Indian batter, even Kohli failed there except 1 innings on a slowish surface. There's no doubt that the 5 main batters have to deliver but you'll not find someone willing to do that with the constant changes in the squad - that is all on Kohli.

 

Yes and by the looks of it Pandya can't slog against these pacers in English conditions, I'll ask once again are 20 or 30 enough for a "batting A/R" 

 

Pandya himself had multiple lives that innings, considering it was a match winning event yes I do rate it higher.

 

Why do you think they're called top order batmen, hint - something to do wrt facing the new ball? Pandya can do well because he's batting lower down the order, how many times did he nick in the first innings you reckon?

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

SA is just the worst place for Indian batter, even Kohli failed there except 1 innings on a slowish surface. There's no doubt that the 5 main batters have to deliver but you'll not find someone willing to do that with the constant changes in the squad - that is all on Kohli.

Kohli only failed in 1 test their he did well in other 2 and even in 2013 tour 

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

 

Yes and by the looks of it Pandya can't slog against these pacers in English conditions, I'll ask once again are 20 or 30 enough for a "batting A/R" 

U think slogging comes of every day, jadeja came once in those 10 innings on good surface 

To me his application n fight is enough, what he offers is enough

To me he isnt the biggest problem its other...........

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

 

Pandya himself had multiple lives that innings, considering it was a match winning event yes I do rate it higher.

So did kohli, but he did show application

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Why do you think they're called top order batmen, hint - something to do wrt facing the new ball? Pandya can do well because he's batting lower down the order, how many times did he nick in the first innings you reckon?

I dnt care what they are called

they arent doing their job atleast pandya is applying himself, i thought they are better batsman then pandya so why to give new ball excuse isnt that ur job

 

ok u wanna compare it to pandya , go n roll over ur arm for 15 overs n not loose the plot 

[R!TTER]

Just now, Ankit_sharma03 said:

please tell me u dnt watch test cricket, coz @Khota doesnt we all knw

Coz u have no idea what happ in 2013-14 with 4 bowlers n how team mnmgt decided to have this 5th option starting with binny n pandya 

If u didnt see..............go check those test matches

So it's Dhoini's fault for not giving overs to Binny, I remember the games fine. Binny bowled less than 35 over that series. Why are you bringing this to argue for Pandya, is he also not good enough to pick up wickets? Just like Dhoni thought of Binny btw Stuart played a match saving 78 at Nottingham.

Edited August 5, 2018 by R!TTER

[Straight Drive]

27 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

He isn't an A/R if he's not picking up wickets, and if he's not picking up wickets in Eng or SA, imagine what he'll do in Aus.

He has played just 8 tests. Cricketers have been dropped permanently on basis of 1 test or even 2 tests. However, given the value of all rounder to balance of team I feel we should give a cricketer falling in AR category more matches, before asking him to go back to domestic cricket and work upon flaws to make another comeback. How many tests should be used as evaluation point for performance is a tough question ? What should be evaluation matrix for AR. Maybe at least 15 tests considering scarcity of all rounders.

 

Let's take Ashwin as example. His test batting average is 30 and test bowling SR is 55. And Ashwin isn't a proper all rounder by any means.

 

Hardik averages 35 with bat. Bowling SR is 87. Batting is what he is more good at looking at his figures. His bowling SR needs to improve. 88 is too high. Probably after 20 tests stats could throw better light on his performance.

 

One can then factor in test tons or five fers to analyze performance further to decide whether a cricketer fits into AR role.

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

So it's Dhoini's fault for not giving overs to Binny, I remember the games fine. IIRC Binny bowled than 35 over that series. Why are you bringing this to argue for Pandya, is he also not good enough to pick up wickets, like Dhoni thought of Binny btw Stuart played a match saving 78 at Nottingham?

coz binny didnt have the skills, pandya, has pace, movment, bounce

 

i knw binny played 78 innings on a flat pitch 

pandya played 96 knock on a spicy pitch Sa and he has more bowlnig skils then binny 

 

argument here is simple u need someone to do that role

give 10-15 overs to rest fast bowler if wkts come its bonus and  to cushion batting ( only ur the one looking for wkts ) did team tell u they are using him as wkt taking option......do they even need at this point coz main bowlers are doing the job 

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

bhogle- Pandya batting was a big plus in this test, its time we tell he is our 6th batsman 

 

[R!TTER]

Just now, Straight Drive said:

He has played just 8 tests. Cricketers have been dropped permanently on basis of 1 test or even 2 tests. However, given the value of all rounder to balance of team I feel we should give a cricketer falling in AR category more matches, before asking him to go back to domestic cricket and work upon flaws to make another comeback. How many tests should be used as evaluation point for performance is a tough question ? What should be evaluation matrix for AR. Maybe at least 15 tests considering scarcity of all rounders.

 

Let's take Ashwin as example. His test batting average is 30 and test bowling SR is 55. And Ashwin isn't a proper all rounder by any means.

 

Hardik averages 35 with bat. Bowling SR is 87. Batting is what he is more good at looking at his figures. His bowling SR needs to improve. 88 is too high. Probably after 20 tests stats could throw better light on his performance.

 

One can then factor in test tons or five fers to analyze performance further to decide whether a cricketer fits into AR role.

We also have to factor in the current series and whether we wish to win it or not. If winning doesn't matter than Hardik can play as long as any of you, or Koach, wants. If however he's taking the place of a genuine wicket taker, spinner or pacer, then you have to ask yourself whether his 20, 30 or 50 runs per game are worth more than the wickets the extra bowler will get for you?

 

AFAIK even 2, 3 wickets (ala Rashid) per game is more valuable than some pretty innings with the bat. Then comes the other big question, you think Hardik can score on the roads of Aus against - Cummins, Starc, Hazlewood or Pattinson? I mean if you're giving him 15 or 20 tests then why not, let's lose the next away series as well.

 

As for developing A/R - every one of the decent ones in the past did their job as a bowler or batter, consistently before they developed the other discipline. We're not seeing any of that from Pandya atm, let's see whether he can produce the goods in adverse conditions, let's also see if this obsession with A/R costs us this series or not.

Edited August 5, 2018 by R!TTER

[Straight Drive]

5 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

We also have to factor in the current series and whether we wish to win it or not. If winning doesn't matter than Hardik can play as long as any of you, or Koach, wants. If however he's taking the place of a genuine wicket taker, spinner or pacer, then you have to ask yourself whether his 20, 30 or 50 runs per game are worth more than the wickets the extra bowler will get for you?

 

AFAIK even 2, 3 wickets (ala Rashid) per game is more valuable than some pretty innings with the bat. TRhen comes the other big question, you think Hardik can score on the roads of Aus against - Cummins, Starc, Hazlewood or Pattinson? I mean if you're giving him 15 or 20 tests then why not, let's lose the next away series as well.

 

As for developing A/R - every one of the decent ones in the past did their job as a bowler or batter, consistently before they tried the other discipline. We're not seeing any of that from Pandya atm, let's see whether he can produce the goods in adverse conditions, let's also see if this obsession with A/R costs us the series or not.

I didn't say as long as I want. I specified 20 tests as a good enough chance to prove oneself as all rounder considering the scarcity of all rounders. Then take a call on basis of his batting average and bowling SR.

[zen]

Now we are discussing what Holding thinks .... a desperate bunch, the anti-Pandya brigade is

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, R!TTER said:

SA is just the worst place for Indian batter, even Kohli failed there except 1 innings on a slowish surface.

 

No.  

 

Kohli scored  51  and  40  in the 3rd test too, playing on a low scoring minefield.

 

And in the 2nd test, no other batsman could score a 100 , where he scored 150 odd.

Edited August 5, 2018 by express bowling

[R!TTER]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

No.  

 

Kohli scored  51  and  40  in the 3rd test too, played on a low scoring minefield.

Those weren't chance less innings, he was dropped multiple times but more importantly he failed in 3 out of 4 innings when the series was still alive. Though he did look the best Indian bat throughout the series.

[Khota]

56 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Absolutely 

 

• his job is rest our pace bowlers, I dnt want them to break down like they did in 2013-14 overseas due to lack of support bowler
• i knew he ll take wkts if he ll bowl more , so i hve no doubts about him 

 

The problem isnt 20 wkts for this team as of now , the problem is making runs 

 

HE took wkts of elgar, Makram , Faf.....n these arent lower order batsman so dnt tell me he cnt take wkts

He played two innings and took the same number of wickets as I did. If we have a proper batsman that far low in the order he probably would have scored quiet a bit more.

[Khota]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

Now we are discussing what Holding thinks .... a desperate bunch, the anti-Pandya brigade is

No one is anti pandya or anti anyone. There is only one agenda and that is pro India team.

[Khota]

51 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

His role as a bowler is to rest the main bowlers and keep them fresh.

 

And we are reaping benefits of that. Our main bowlers are fresh and picking 20 wickets in every away test we have played in the last 2 years.

 

 

I did not know that was the role of an allrounder. I learn something new everyday.

[zen]

Just now, Khota said:

No one is anti pandya or anti anyone. There is only one agenda and that is pro India team.

As they say - Ravan bhi kabhi sadhu ka bhash leta hai