In Stats: How Wriddhiman Saha Emerged Out Of MS Dhoni’s Shadow

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, Pollack said:

I am not ungrateful. Infact its the opposite.I am saying Saha should have been in place of Dhoni in tests much before.Dhoni delayed a genuine keeper and a genuine test match player.However I stand by my point that if he lose his batting form and becomes a passenger as far as batting is concerned I wouldn't want him in the team for superior keeping skills alone because I want Indian team to groom a new younger keeper amongst Pant or Kishan or both so that if they have some faults in keeping technique they would be given time and space. Saha has only few years left mostly.

So in spite of Saha maintaining his keeping qualities, you'd drop him if suffers a blip in batting form to "groom" a future Keeper.  And your logic is because its better if the "future" potential "gilchrist" screws over the present team by dropping chances, because he's going to pay off down the road.  Maybe.  

 

Banjo, wicketkeepers just don't get the respect and importance they deserve.  A quality keeper is worth more than a bad one that can average 20 runs more than him - simply because a good keeper can slice off 50-150 runs off the opposition's total by converting chances into wickets.  People just don't seem to grasp this basic cricket insight.  Its all about the glamour that a "gilchrist" type batting performance gives.  

[Pollack]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

So in spite of Saha maintaining his keeping qualities, you'd drop him if suffers a blip in batting form to "groom" a future Keeper.  And your logic is because its better if the "future" potential "gilchrist" screws over the present team by dropping chances, because he's going to pay off down the road.  Maybe.  

Yes. Our future potentials are not Kamran akmal.They are decent keepers.Actually few shady keepers like PP, Karthik and Robin have made psychological impact on Indian fans that we cannot have decent young keepers since the seniors themselves are poor.So as soon as you see a young keeper dropping catches in a match(like pant in u19WC) we are quick to conclude he may not be good keeper.

You will rarely get ready made good keeper.

Saha was dropping catches just few time back and people were gunning for his head.

[sandeep]

Just now, Pollack said:

 

Saha was dropping catches just few time back and people were gunning for his head.

Bollocks.  He had a couple of sharp drops in the game against England, where he got injured.  That's it.  The injury was serious enough that he had to sit out a few test matches.  

 

And people have been gunning for his head long before and after those isolated drops.  People want the Indian version of (QdK + Gilchrist) * Dhoni.  Squared.  And Saha doesn't fit that profile.   So he must go.  unless he keeps wickets at the all-world level and keeps scoring more runs than a top order bat.  And the moment he stops doing the latter, its time to "groom" the future.  Present jaaye  khaddey mein.

[Pollack]

19 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Isn't Saha only 32 ? It means he can have another 5 years- remember, he is a late starter, so his body does not have as much miles on him like someone who is 32 and playing international cricket since they were 21. 

As long as Saha can average around 30 with the bat, he is not a passenger, coz anything above 30 runs average for #7 is a bonus, really.

Pant and Kishan should be groomed, but they need 2-3 years of limited exposure to fully develop their fitness for test cricket. Wicketkeeping is much harder than it looks on the body because its like doing 500 squats a day, holding each squat for 15-20 seconds. Not easy on your back at all and plenty of wicketkeeper's careers are cut short due to back problems. 

I think they can manage fitness. Not an issue.

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, Pollack said:

I think they can manage fitness. Not an issue.

it is an issue for teenagers, because their bodies are still developing. Lower back injuries are still one of the most common career-killers for teenagers in a lot of sports. Managing fitness for wicketkeepers at a young age, is basically not getting overplayed- which happens to all international cricketers. 
IMO, Pant and Kishan should be given half a dozen ODIs a year if they are performing well enough to deserve the spot, for the next 2-3 years, with 2-3 tests (again, only if they keep performing), till they graduate to full duties (if deserving) by the time they are 22-23.

 

[zep1706]

I like him better than Dhoni in test cricket. Better keeper against seamers and comparable batsman. In fact I expect Saha to bat better than Dhoni overseas, now that he seems to be confident of his batting abilities. 

[Pollack]

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 People want the Indian version of (QdK + Gilchrist) * Dhoni.  Squared.

Nothing wrong in it.

 

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

So he must go.  unless he keeps wickets at the all-world level and keeps scoring more runs than a top order bat. 

He need not score more than top order bat. When did I say that?

 

 

[Pollack]

8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

it is an issue for teenagers, because their bodies are still developing. Lower back injuries are still one of the most common career-killers for teenagers in a lot of sports. Managing fitness for wicketkeepers at a young age, is basically not getting overplayed- which happens to all international cricketers. 
IMO, Pant and Kishan should be given half a dozen ODIs a year if they are performing well enough to deserve the spot, for the next 2-3 years, with 2-3 tests (again, only if they keep performing), till they graduate to full duties (if deserving) by the time they are 22-23.

 

There were quite a few keepers who debuted in teens yet no one's career was threatened because they could not have fitness for tests.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Pollack

[sandeep]

12 minutes ago, Pollack said:

Nothing wrong in it.

 

He need not score more than top order bat. When did I say that?

 

 

My post wasn't directed at you specifically.  But if you want to take it that way, answer me this - what should be the metric to evaulate Saha's batting contributions?  Let's talk about a moving average of last 7 innings - What number does he need to stay above to avoid being dropped even if he's doing a great job behind the stumps?   

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, Pollack said:

There were quite a few keepers who debuted in teens yet no one's career was threatened because they could not have fitness for tests.

like who ?

 

[Pollack]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

like who ?

 

PP , Hanif and Mushfiqur.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Pollack said:

PP , Hanif and Mushfiqur.

Hanif who ?

PP is not a regular international player. So we cant use him as example of what lies ahead for teenagers playing cricket 11 months a year.

Same with Mushfiqur. Plus its not like Mushfiqur came in at the expense of someone like Saha.
No major test side has debuted a keeper in their teens. 

[Pollack]

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

My post wasn't directed at you specifically.  But if you want to take it that way, answer me this - what should be the metric to evaulate Saha's batting contributions?  Let's talk about a moving average of last 7 innings - What number does he need to stay above to avoid being dropped even if he's doing a great job behind the stumps?   

30 should be the worst tolerated. But most importantly he needs to keep playing those gritty and crucial knock that his batting position demands even if he does reach milestones. Like I feel even today's innings was good. Average should not be the sole criteria. Impact innings should be respected.

[Magneto]

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

My post wasn't directed at you specifically.  But if you want to take it that way, answer me this - what should be the metric to evaulate Saha's batting contributions?  Let's talk about a moving average of last 7 innings - What number does he need to stay above to avoid being dropped even if he's doing a great job behind the stumps?   

Realistically, the kind of confidence Saha enjoys from the team and management, he is not likely to be dropped unless his keeping form nosedives. They know the value of a genuine wicketkeeper and a teamman in Tests, and they can see how Saha has improved his batting as well. For eg, the last five times he has gotten a 50, he has not been dismissed at a 50+ score. Fans may see future Gilchrists in any keeper who bats well for a season, but the higher powers know that if a talent is genuine, they will come through the ranks.

[Magneto]

5 minutes ago, Pollack said:

30 should be the worst tolerated. But most importantly he needs to keep playing those gritty and crucial knock that his batting position demands even if he does reach milestones. Like I feel even today's innings was good. Average should not be the sole criteria. Impact innings should be respected.

Today's innings was series-defining. And this is his third knock in a row in this series. It's not about averages, it's about his overall contribution to Team India.

[Pollack]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Hanif who ?

Forget Hanif. He was an oldie. But there were more around age group 20-22. I don't want to Google them. From top of my mind Ajay Ratra also debut young.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

PP is not a regular international player. So we cant use him as example of what lies ahead for teenagers playing cricket 11 months a year.

Same with Mushfiqur. Plus its not like Mushfiqur came in at the expense of someone like Saha.
No major test side has debuted a keeper in their teens. 

I was refuting only fitness related arguments. Whom he replaced and Why is irrelevant.

[sandeep]

10 minutes ago, Pollack said:

30 should be the worst tolerated. But most importantly he needs to keep playing those gritty and crucial knock that his batting position demands even if he does reach milestones. Like I feel even today's innings was good. Average should not be the sole criteria. Impact innings should be respected.

So if Saha averages 25, that's not good enough to keep his spot.  Even if he is perfect as a keeper?  Since when is Team India so short of batting ability that it needs big runs from its wicket-keeper.   Plus we have the likes of Ash, Jaddu, and Bhuvi down the order as well.  Anyway, I've made my point.

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Pollack said:

Forget Hanif. He was an oldie. But there were more around age group 20-22. I don't want to Google them. From top of my mind Ajay Ratra also debut young.

 

 

I was refuting only fitness related arguments. Whom he replaced and Why is irrelevant.

From what i recall, i cant think of a wicketkeeper from an established test nation debuting before 21-22. 21-22 is a hell of a lot different than 18-19 in terms of physique....

Sure, if you have a talented 18 year old and his competition is a sub-par, useless player, it can justify taking that risk. but when your side already has an excellent keeper, thrusting an 18 year old before his body is ready for 11 months of wicketkeeping, is just risking burnout. 

 

[Pollack]

5 minutes ago, Magneto said:

Today's innings was series-defining. And this is his third knock in a row in this series. It's not about averages, it's about his overall contribution to Team India.

When did I say otherwise? 

[Pollack]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

So if Saha averages 25, that's not good enough to keep his spot.  Even if he is perfect as a keeper?  Since when is Team India so short of batting ability that it needs big runs from its wicket-keeper.   Plus we have the likes of Ash, Jaddu, and Bhuvi down the order as well.  Anyway, I've made my point.

You asked about average and so I gave a rough idea about it.Already explained in rest of the post that along with average impact of his innings should also be considered even if they are not 50s or 100s. Can I be any more elaborate?