Why are we so slow?

[veer]

you should talk to Bunty Sajdeh.. He has 'all marz ki dawa.. ( n daru)...'

 

If he wants us to be slow.. we'll be slow.

[CG]

With India's finances and population size, if resources were fully utilized/maximized, the country should have become No.1

It is a real shame that, in a sport where only 5-6 real competitors exist, India fails to top it. At least in hockey, from 1920s-1950s, India was No. 1 in the world.

If only academies and infrastructure could make up no 1 then England would have long dominated most sports .Academies and Facilities can raise the standard of your AVG cricketer but not produce genius.You see teams who dominated cricket had the best bowling line ups of their time.You had genius like Shane Warne and Glen McGrath .India's bowling culture particularly fast bowling culture is developing I would expect one or two near 25 AVG test bowlers next gen for us to dominate cricket.

[Sloane84]

13 hours ago, Vk1 said:

Talking especially about limited overs game.. we hardly seem to bring anything new or out of the box to the game. And neither do we immediately follow things that others initiate successfully. Wrist spinners success has been proven now for 2 years and still we are only coming to terms with it just now. Few years back when the four fielders outside circle was implemented, dhoni realized that part-timers are ineffective only after an year or so. When pinch hitting was a rage, we had a prabhakar or manjrekar to use those overs. When Gilchrist changed wicket keeper definition we still had ratra dighe dahias karthiks etc till dhoni debuted.  We were perhaps the last major team to learn the art of reverse swing. We were only better than Pakistan in realizing the value of fielding. Even srilanka had Murali mahanama Jayasuriya dilshan etc. IPL has been around for 10 years and we still seem to take nothing out of it strategically.  When are we going to initiate something ? Why are we tactically this slow?

 

The answer is that there are very few innovative thinkers in India. Recent examples of this problem are "Play for Draw when you could Win" Dhoni,  "Last to Use DRS" India,  and "Bat Second no matter what" Kohli.

[Brainfade]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

We are slow  ( regarding introducing new ideas or incorporating recently introduced ideas ) because there are not many analytical brains connected to our top level cricket.

 

And the rare ones we find, like Kumble, are thrown out.

 

Just listen to our ex-cricketers speak..... how much proper analysis do we find ?  Maybe from 1 or 2 newer commentators.

 

 

Maybe his analytical mind can be used more productively in an administrative role than as a coach.  A brilliant analyst does not a great coach make.  IMO, he would do a great job of developing and executing strategies that people are talking about here.  

[Vilander]

12 hours ago, Khota said:

It is time for me to rant/complain.

You cannot have a dumb sheet captain making decisions in the field. A coach with analysts should prepare a game plan and implement it. Captain on the field making decisions is so 20th century.

Look at NFL and learn. Coach has a headset on him and listenting to half a dozen diffeernt coaches making input. They make decisions in real time. Way too much power is given to captains in cricket. Time to move on.

so you suggest time outs for coaching inputs, i am sure IPL will love it..more innings breaks means more 

 

[Khota]

2 minutes ago, Vilander said:

so you suggest time outs for coaching inputs, i am sure IPL will love it..more innings breaks means more 

 

No time outs but this is an excellent suggestion from you. For IPL format time out is not a bad deal. people will love it and commercial breaks would be filling in the coffers. excellent idea.

[Vijy]

7 minutes ago, Brainfade said:

Maybe his analytical mind can be used more productively in an administrative role than as a coach.  A brilliant analyst does not a great coach make.  IMO, he would do a great job of developing and executing strategies that people are talking about here.  

It would be a good role, but I wonder if he will want to be associated with BCCI in some capacity or not.

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Population is the most bogus argument. It's more about facilities and systems. Your income levels in other words. Which is why Mumbai has historically dominated rest of India in domestics.

As someone pointed out above, it's also about natural talent and then refining it. Many of the African countries don't have great facilities (at least to the best of my knowledge), but they produce lots of long-distance runners, some footballers, etc. Anyway, this is obviously a complex issue with many parameters involved - one cannot pinpoint only one (or even a few) factors.

[express bowling]

We have whatever talent we have.   A good system and good infrastructure would help bring more talent to the fore and would help them thrive better.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

We have whatever talent we have.   A good system and good infrastructure would help bring more talent to the fore and would help them thrive better.

It's about making the best of what we have.

[Tibarn]

I think we bat slow because of our middle order. We know that Rohit, Dhawan, and Kohli can play a long innings, but our 4-7 rarely do, even when given a chance. It seems like we are more likely to lose than other teams when our top 3 is gone. I think if we had players like Manish Pandey and KL Rahul as our 4 and 5, two players who have the ability to play a long innings in ODIs, our top order would tuk tuk less.

[Vijy]

Just now, Tibarn said:

I think we bat slow because of our middle order. We know that Rohit, Dhawan, and Kohli can play a long innings, but our 4-7 rarely do, even when given a chance. It seems like we are more likely to lose than other teams when our top 3 is gone. I think if we had players like Manish Pandey and KL Rahul as our 4 and 5, two players who have the ability to play a long innings in ODIs, our top order would tuk tuk less.

Jadhav is also quite capable of batting at 5. He is not as flashy as people think.

[Tibarn]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Jadhav is also quite capable of batting at 5. He is not as flashy as people think.

Has he played any long innings in List A? I am curious because from what I've seen in the IPL he didn't seem like someone who could anchor an innings in 50 overs. 

[Vijy]

Just now, Tibarn said:

Has he played any long innings in List A? I am curious because from what I've seen in the IPL he didn't seem like someone who could anchor an innings in 50 overs. 

Jadhav scored his only ODI 100 coming in at 63-4. The pitch was a patta, and the Eng bowlers are 1D, but it was still a remarkable innings which proved that he can score even when top order collapsed.

 

Turning to List A, he has 9 100s in 97 innings, which is pretty good for middle order batsman. In FC matches, he scored a triple (so did Sir of course) and has played some reasonably long innings.

 

The bottom line is that, IMO, he is not a blocker, but he should be capable of innings of 70-80 balls, which is sufficient for a No.5.

 

If Dhoni is around, I'd prefer to see Jadhav at 6 (and KLR at 5). If no Dhoni, then KLR at 4, Jadhav at 5 and Pant at 6.

[Tibarn]

Just now, Vijy said:

Jadhav scored his only ODI 100 coming in at 63-4. The pitch was a patta, and the Eng bowlers are 1D, but it was still a remarkable innings which proved that he can score even when top order collapsed.

 

Turning to List A, he has 9 100s in 97 innings, which is pretty good for middle order batsman. In FC matches, he scored a triple (so did Sir of course) and has played some reasonably long innings.

 

The bottom line is that, IMO, he is not a blocker, but he should be capable of innings of 70-80 balls, which is sufficient for a No.5.

 

If Dhoni is around, I'd prefer to see Jadhav at 6 (and KLR at 5). If no Dhoni, then KLR at 4, Jadhav at 5 and Pant at 6.

Good to know, as Jadhav seems to be a handy spinner as well in ODIs. It seems that we only need to replace Yuvraj then to make a lineup which has players in the lower order who can play long innings. 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Tibarn said:

Good to know, as Jadhav seems to be a handy spinner as well in ODIs. It seems that we only need to replace Yuvraj then to make a lineup which has players in the lower order who can play long innings. 

That's my take on the situation. Of course, there are other strong contenders as well - Manish Pandey, etc. But, speaking pragmatically (since Dhoni will not be dropped) with some degree of idealism, the team would be:

Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, Dhoni, KL Rahul, Jadhav, Pandya, 4 bowlers

If Dhoni's form declines continually, I feel he should be replaced by Pant, and everyone moves 1 place up.

 

The problem is that Jadhav is an okay-ish part-time bowler, but I would have preferred one other part-time option. Rohit has stopped bowling continually, and Kohli just bowls filth.

[Tibarn]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

That's my take on the situation. Of course, there are other strong contenders as well - Manish Pandey, etc. But, speaking pragmatically (since Dhoni will not be dropped) with some degree of idealism, the team would be:

Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, Dhoni, KL Rahul, Jadhav, Pandya, 4 bowlers

If Dhoni's form declines continually, I feel he should be replaced by Pant, and everyone moves 1 place up.

 

The problem is that Jadhav is an okay-ish part-time bowler, but I would have preferred one other part-time option. Rohit has stopped bowling continually, and Kohli just bowls filth.

We can always let MuraliDhawan bowl. 

 

It's a shame that Yuvraj doesn't bowl anymore. He is like 10% the player he used to be, but we persist with him. 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Tibarn said:

We can always let MuraliDhawan bowl. 

 

It's a shame that Yuvraj doesn't bowl anymore. He is like 10% the player he used to be, but we persist with him. 

I'd say that he is around 30% the player he used to be in terms of batting, bowling AND fielding. Very stupid of selectors to persist with him. One genuine cause of concern in Indian batting lineup is absence of part-time bowling options. Days of Sachin, Sehwag, Ganguly and Yuvi are gone (and Dravid - does anyone remember his "bowling" )

[Tibarn]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I'd say that he is around 30% the player he used to be in terms of batting, bowling AND fielding. Very stupid of selectors to persist with him. One genuine cause of concern in Indian batting lineup is absence of part-time bowling options. Days of Sachin, Sehwag, Ganguly and Yuvi are gone (and Dravid - does anyone remember his "bowling" )

I remember when Kumble first became coach he paired off the batsmen and bowlers, so that the batsmen could improve their bowling and the bowlers could improve their batting. Nothing seems to come from that, especially, as you said, in terms of Rohit, who seemed to be an okay-ish option for part-time bowler. 

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

I remember when Kumble first became coach he paired off the batsmen and bowlers, so that the batsmen could improve their bowling and the bowlers could improve their batting. Nothing seems to come from that, especially, as you said, in terms of Rohit, who seemed to be an okay-ish option for part-time bowler. 

Rohit started off quite well as a part-timer then stopped bowling completely - shoulder issues I think. I'd like to see one of the top 5 work seriously on learning to bowl 3-4 overs accurately.