How good is Shami?

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Only Kapil was better than Shami at this point of career.

And irfan got to play few games against Zimb n Bangladesh which helped his record a lot 

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, vishalvirsingh said:

a genuine fast bowler does not need to ball more than 16 to 18 overs at good pace as he gets his bag full of wicket in his 16 to 18 overs.. i am happy to get 15 overs from shammi if he can fetch his 3 to 4 wickets in his 16 overs itself.

I will be more than happy if bowls just 15 or 16 overs in days and picks up 3-4 wickets. It means bowlers from other end also have done their job. As a fast bowler you will be asked to 20 plus overs in day when playing away from subcontinent  and in a long five test series if he will be asked to do this for multiple times.

 

Last time in England  Bhuvi  in first two tests was effective but his lost his steam after 3 innings after bowling 70 odd overs as Dhoni kept bowling him for 8 over spells. He simply ran out of gas and was not the same bowler for rest of tour.

 

Indian fast bowlers run of steam faster  when asked to carry the load as they are not used that sort of bowling load at home.If only one fast bowler is effective captains will over work him. Kohli has been one captain who looks like he knows how to manage fast bowlers but he has like Shami has not yet been tested.

 

Shami is not  a genuine pace bowler, he is a fast medium but his plus is he is able to retain the speeds thru out the day.

Edited August 14, 2017 by putrevus

[putrevus]

21 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

90 overs and 5 bowlers

 

That means 18 overs per head may work

 

The workhorse-pacer like Ishant or Bhuvi will bowl 20 +.  The spinner may do that too.

 

Shami may end up bowling 15 or 16 , something he is used to doing.

 

Which is why playing 5 bowlers will be so important to keep our strike pacers fresh.

But in reality things play out differently, I have not seen two Indian fast bowlers having good days at the same time ever.

[Hyderabadi Tiger]

he's one fine find for us, we need to use him well and only play him important games. He should have rested for the 3rd Test but nothing is above Kohli's arrogance 

[express bowling]

18 minutes ago, putrevus said:

But in reality things play out differently, I have not seen two Indian fast bowlers having good days at the same time ever.

You are right.  That has often been our problem.  But, even for that, 5 bowlers would help that situation by reducing the workload of the successful pacers of the day.  It is also one of the reasons why Ishant is preferred in the team as he can usually send down 20+ overs decently, even if he does not get a wicket.

[putrevus]

17 minutes ago, express bowling said:

You are right.  That has often been our problem.  But, even for that, 5 bowlers would help that situation by reducing the workload of the successful pacers of the day.  It is also one of the reasons why Ishant is preferred in the team as he can usually send down 20+ overs decently, even if he does not get a wicket.

Thats why to be a good travelling team away from sub continent , you need atleast 3 bowlers who are very good and can take 5 plus wickets on their days.If Pandya is all over the place you will have lot of problems. You have seen Yadav he is so inconsistent so if two of your four fast bowlers are unreliable it puts so much strain on main bowler. If series is five test series then you will run that good fast bowler to ground after two tests.

[express bowling]

10 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Thats why to be a good travelling team away from sub continent , you need atleast 3 bowlers who are very good and can take 5 plus wickets on their days.If Pandya is all over the place you will have lot of problems. You have seen Yadav he is so inconsistent so if two of your four fast bowlers are unreliable it puts so much strain on main bowler. If series is five test series then you will run that good fast bowler to ground after two tests.

 

Pandya has been rather impressive with his line and length so far and is a thinking bowler.  Umesh is the hit-or-miss guy. Shami, Bhuvi, Bumrah and Ishant won't spray the ball around.

 

My ideal lineup for tests outside Asia, for sureshot consistency, would be  

 

Shami 

Bumrah / Ishant

Bhuvi / Ishant

Pandya 

Ashwin ( as he will have to bat at No.6 )

 

I will reserve Umesh for Asian test matches, where high pace is needed for reverse swing and he does it well.

Edited August 14, 2017 by express bowling

[putrevus]

29 minutes ago, express bowling said:

You are right.  That has often been our problem.  But, even for that, 5 bowlers would help that situation by reducing the workload of the successful pacers of the day.  It is also one of the reasons why Ishant is preferred in the team as he can usually send down 20+ overs decently, even if he does not get a wicket.

In my view if this Indian team has ambitions of being good overseas , should take chances and prepare green tops at home where you play four fast bowlers. That should start with upcoming Srilankan series .Unless our fast bowlers become main bowlers and spinners support bowlers you will not win many matches away from sub continent as no team will prepare wickets where two spinners will come into picture.Ashwin and Jadeja's  show in CT has dimmed my optimism on playing both of them even in overseas conditions.

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

In my view if this Indian team has ambitions of being good overseas , should take chances and prepare green tops at home where you play four fast bowlers. That should start with upcoming Srilankan series .Unless our fast bowlers become main bowlers and spinners support bowlers you will not win many matches away from sub continent as no team will prepare wickets where two spinners will come into picture.Ashwin and Jadeja's  show in CT has dimmed my optimism on playing both of them even in overseas conditions.

 

Yes... we should prepare green, bouncy tracks for the SL home test series in November, for all 3 tests.

 

Ideal opportunity for a dress rehearsal for the SA tour.

[putrevus]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Pandya has been rather impressive with his line and length so far and is a thinking bowler.  Umesh is the hit-or-miss guy. Shami, Bhuvi, Bumrah and Ishant won't spray the ball around.

 

My ideal lineup for tests outside Asia, for sureshot consistency, would be  

 

Shami 

Bumrah / Ishant

Bhuvi / Ishant

Pandya 

Ashwin ( as he will have to bat at No.6 )

 

I will reserve Umesh for Asian test matches, where high pace is needed for reverse swing and he does it well.

Pandya was hammered in CT and in tests he never has been called into picture where his bowling was an absoulte necessity.Hopefully he will improve, Kapil started at no 11 and made himself one of the best allrounders to have played this game. I don't know if Pandya has bowling ability even he works hard on it.

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Pandya was hammered in CT and in tests he never has been called into picture where his bowling was an absoulte necessity.Hopefully he will improve, Kapil started at no 11 and made himself one of the best allrounders to have played this game. I don't know if Pandya has bowling ability even he works hard on it.

 

Let us not mix up formats.

 

In this test series, Pandya has bowled in very good areas.

 

He has bowled 32 overs and is averaging 23 , SR of 48 and ER of 2.96  on tracks not favourable for seamers.

 

p.s - Even in CT, he was hammered in only 2 of the 5 games, which can happen to any bowler in modern ODIs.  He bowled well in WI.

Edited August 14, 2017 by express bowling

[putrevus]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

Let us not mix up formats.

 

In this test series, Pandya has bowled in very good areas.

 

He has bowled 32 overs and is averaging 23 with an ER of 2.96  on tracks not favourable for seamers.

He will be required to bowl 32 overs in one test  and not across 3 tests and six innings. He is not a sub 25 average bowler in any conditions.But I really hope he works on his bowling as it will be needed in bunches.

[jf1gp_1]

 

15 minutes ago, putrevus said:

In my view if this Indian team has ambitions of being good overseas , should take chances and prepare green tops at home where you play four fast bowlers. That should start with upcoming Srilankan series .Unless our fast bowlers become main bowlers and spinners support bowlers you will not win many matches away from sub continent as no team will prepare wickets where two spinners will come into picture.Ashwin and Jadeja's  show in CT has dimmed my optimism on playing both of them even in overseas conditions.

SL beat us in CT, infact they scored more in 50 overs at CT than they did in both innings combined in 3rd test. Lets take CT result with a pinch of salt and not apply them to test. 

 

Though i completely understand the point you are trying to make, i also believe home test we have to play to our strengths.

Edited August 14, 2017 by jf1gp_1

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, putrevus said:

He will be required to bowl 32 overs in one test  and not across 3 tests and six innings. He is not a sub 25 average bowler in any conditions.But I really hope he works on his bowling as it will be needed in bunches.

 

Pandya is the 5th bowler and not the strike bowler.

His job will be to bowl in good areas when the main pacers rest.  

 

He has given the impression in this series that he will be able to do that.

 

Any wicket will be a bonus, but he will probably pck a few.

Edited August 14, 2017 by express bowling

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, jf1gp_1 said:

 

SL beat us in CT, infact they scored more in 50 overs at CT than they did in both innings combined in 3rd test. Lets take CT result with a pinch of salt and not apply them to test. 

 

Though i completely understand the point you are trying to make, i also believe home test we have to play to our strengths.

I am not taking the results of CT in considerations at all. I just don't see Pandya has viable fourth bowler as of now, he needs to bowl lot of overs to get match ready to handle that kind of load and that will come only if he plays FC or A tours.

 

India has lost many matches overseas due to the first change and second change bowlers unable to sustain the pressure created by opening bowlers.None of our bowlers are that great where they can come back and break set batsmen.

 

If you are scared to experiment against even weak teams then you are not a no1 side. India has been a very strong side at home since 1990s so Kohli and co are not breaking any new ground there and if they have win overseas they need a practice games where their fast bowlers are fully stretched.

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Pandya is the 5th bowler and not the strike bowler.

His job will be to bowl in good areas when the main pacers rest.  

 

He has given the impression in this series that he will be able to do that.

 

Any wicket will be a bonus, but he will probably pck a few.

No pandya will be fourth bowler and spinner will be fifth bowler in majority of tests especially in first innings.Stokes or Woakes are fourth bowlers for England.No one is stopping Pandya to become better, if he has nail down his spot on long term basis he has to improve his bowling period.

[Laaloo]

Apparently not good enough for the CT final 

[putrevus]

Just now, Laaloo said:

Apparently not good enough for the CT final 

In hindsight it was big mistake not playing Shami then early wickets would have changed the total complexion of that game.Pakistan had win one match at some point but unfortunately it happened in finals.Hope it does not become repeat of 1986 Sharjah Javed Miandad. 

[express bowling]

13 minutes ago, putrevus said:

No pandya will be fourth bowler and spinner will be fifth bowler in majority of tests especially in first innings.Stokes or Woakes are fourth bowlers for England.No one is stopping Pandya to become better, if he has nail down his spot on long term basis he has to improve his bowling period.

 

People don't realize how much Pandya has improved his bowling in the last 15 months or so.

 

He now has a stock ball .... good, length and around off-stump.... which he can bowl 4 or 5 times an over

He is bowling at fast-medium speeds of 132 k to 142 k .... occasionally touching 145 k / 146 k even.

He is hitting the deck hard and not floating the ball or just placing the ball

He gets good bounce and has a good bouncer 

He can out-swing the ball when conditions favour

He gets seam movement on occasions

 

 

When he burst into the scene... he was mostly bowling just shot and often wide.... did not have a stock ball... bowled 127 to 137 k.... did not move the ball much

Edited August 14, 2017 by express bowling

[Laaloo]

14 minutes ago, putrevus said:

In hindsight it was big mistake not playing Shami then early wickets would have changed the total complexion of that game.Pakistan had win one match at some point but unfortunately it happened in finals.Hope it does not become repeat of 1986 Sharjah Javed Miandad. 

It was not even hindisight. We were calling for him since the first match and especially after Jadhav outbowled Ashwin and Jadeja in all of the matches and in that SF, Ashwin dropped a catch and got thrashed.