Is Hardik Pandya more talented than Jadeja in tests?

[Trichromatic]

7 hours ago, zen said:

It shows that FC avgs are unreliable much like performances vs BD and Zim are 

 

I thought it is understood that Pandya has been fast tracked, is developing and yet to peak 

 

 

 

It's not. 

 

It's very reliable in showing that a batsman doesn't have higher batting avg than his FC avg.  Maybe 1-2 points higher,  but that's it. It remains at similar level as your FC avg in best case scenario. 

 

Best case - International avg is 1-2 points higher,  or if you have very good avg in FC you can have similar record in international.  Sanga probably has max difference. 

 

Avg case - Most batsmen have lower avg than FC. There are many who avg 50 in FC and 30 in international.  Many avg 30 in FC and 20 in international. No one becomes 40 avg batsman with avg 20s in FC. 

 

Worst case:  failures in international. 

[Trichromatic]

6 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

History shows that the International avg of any player is atleat 5-10 lower than domestic average. Pandya would be a special case to defy that 

He is best talent in histtory of game who can avg 40 with sub 20 avg in FC. That's what @zen believes.

[zen]

58 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

It's not. 

 

It's very reliable in showing that a batsman doesn't have higher batting avg than his FC avg.  Maybe 1-2 points higher,  but that's it. It remains at similar level as your FC avg in best case scenario. 

 

Best case - International avg is 1-2 points higher,  or if you have very good avg in FC you can have similar record in international.  Sanga probably has max difference. 

 

Avg case - Most batsmen have lower avg than FC. There are many who avg 50 in FC and 30 in international.  Many avg 30 in FC and 20 in international. No one becomes 40 avg batsman with avg 20s in FC. 

 

Worst case:  failures in international. 

Domestic avgs are to identify potential players for international games. Once the player plays international games, we go by that record

 

In Pandya’s case, he has already been identified as someone who can represent Ind. He has only played a handful of domestics and his international stats are available (and better in the first season to those he is being compared with). He hit a test 100 in SL, 90 odd in SA, 70 odd in Ind, and 50 not out in Eng (could have got a 100 there)

 

If you are so keen to follow his domestics, he recently picked up a 5-er and scored 80 odd. Many have also posted in other threads about his performance in Ind A game where he scored a 70-80 where other batsmen struggled in difficult batting conditions 

 

On the thread on Ind should develop ARs, you asked why he should be preferred over Jadeja. I gave the reasons. You further started this thread on “talent”, where again many have identified with his talent. Is the exercise to keep writing against Pandya, who is one of the rare talents to spring up in Ind? 

 

[express bowling]

Jayasuriya has a batting average of 40 in tests and  37  in non-test-match FC.

 

And there are other such examples.

 

Kohli has a similar average in both.

Edited January 27, 2019 by express bowling

[Trichromatic]

7 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Jayasuriya has a batting average of 40 in tests and  37  in non-test-match FC.

 

And there are other such examples.

 

Kohli has a similar average in both.

There are many with averages close to domestic cricket. 1-2 points or 10% avg difference is not rare. I cited Sanga's example who averages 50-51 in FC and 57 in international.

 

Is there anyone who has seen international average say 40% higher than domestic average.

[Trichromatic]

19 minutes ago, zen said:

Domestic avgs are to identify potential players for international games. Once the player plays international games, we go by that record

 

In Pandya’s case, he has already been identified as someone who can represent Ind. He has only played a handful of domestics and his international stats are available (and better in the first season to those he is being compared with). He hit a test 100 in SL, 90 odd in SA, 70 odd in Ind, and 50 not out in Eng (could have got a 100 there)

  

 If you are so keen to follow his domestics, he recently picked up a 5-er and scored 80 odd. Many have also posted in other threads about his performance in Ind A game where he scored a 70-80 where other batsmen struggled in difficult batting conditions 

  

On the thread on Ind should develop ARs, you asked why he should be preferred over Jadeja. I gave the reasons. You further started this thread on “talent”, where again many have identified with his talent. Is the exercise to keep writing against Pandya, who is one of the rare talents to spring up in Ind? 

  

Still avoiding the question about batsmen who have seen averages significantly higher than domestic cricket?
 

Batsmen haven't managed to do it and there is no reason to believe that Pandya is an exception.

 

Pandya averages less than 30 in domestics and he if he not allowed to play FC cricket, he will have batting avg 28-33 at best which is not good for Indian team in long term. There is no way he can go close to 40 otherwise.

 

There are no magic wands or shortcut to success in batting, no matter how much you promote it.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

There are many with averages close to domestic cricket. 1-2 points or 10% avg difference is common.

 

Is there anyone who has seen international average say 40% higher than domestic average.

 

It can happen in the T20 era.

 

As some talents, who have not got the chance to play much FC,  are getting noticed from T20 leagues.  

 

And they don't play much FC later on either, if they manage to become international stars.

 

 

[Straight Drive]

Pandya got injured twice last year. His availability is a concern. The captain too did not pick him for two tests since he made his debut. He needs to convince Kohli with his performances. Kohli probably has now after experimentation has gone back to 7 + 4. So doubt how Pandya makes the comeback for important tours like Australia. With key players to be rested against Zimbabwe, he will get selected. Pandya's problems just don't start with performance, his issues start being available, captain having faith of him after playing him for few series and the team combo. 

 

Jadeja on other hand has improved his batting and his bowling is much better than Pandya. Does not gets injured as much even after playing so many matches and throwing himself on field. 

 

Jadeja is way ahead of Pandya at this point of time in performances, availability for selection, being higher in selection in pecking order. 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Straight Drive

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

It can happen in the T20 era.

 

As some talents, who have not got the chance to play much FC,  are getting noticed from T20 leagues.  

 

 And they don't play much FC later on either, if they manage to become international stars.

 

  

Who are such test batsmen?

 

 

[zen]

17 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Still avoiding the question about batsmen who have seen averages significantly higher than domestic cricket?
 

Batsmen haven't managed to do it and there is no reason to believe that Pandya is an exception.

 

Pandya averages less than 30 in domestics and he if he not allowed to play FC cricket, he will have batting avg 28-33 at best which is not good for Indian team in long term. There is no way he can go close to 40 otherwise.

 

There are no magic wands or shortcut to success in batting, no matter how much you promote it.

As mentioned domestic record becomes irrelevant for international players. And Pandya has not played many domestic games

 

Per you he may not be good enough to score test 100s, he scored a test 100 in his debut series, and a bunch of 50+ scores (even more than some specialist batsmen with presumably good domestic averages) in the games he played. Per you he may not be a good bowler, he won a test for Ind in Eng when he got the opportunity to bowl with a relatively new ball 

 

To summarize, your point on domestics is irrelevant  ....  as ARs, the likes of Jadeja already play 2nd fiddle to him in LOIs and will do so in Tests too   .... As a specialist spinner, Jadeja offers value though

Edited January 27, 2019 by zen

[Trichromatic]

6 minutes ago, zen said:

As mentioned domestic record becomes irrelevant for international players. And Pandya has not played many domestic games.

 

No it doesn't.

 

6 minutes ago, zen said:

Per you he is not good enough to score test 100s because in Ranji he hasn’t scored, he scored a test 100 in his debut series and a bunch of 50+ scores (even more than some specialist batsmen with presumably good domestic averages) in the games he played. Per you he is not supposed to be a good bowler, he won a test for Ind in Eng when he got the opportunity to bowl with a relatively new ball 

  

To summarize, your point on domestics is irrelevant ....  as ARs, the likes of Jadeja already play 2nd fiddle to him in LOIs and will do so in Tests too  

I didn't say that. I am sure you're smart enough to understand that and still avoiding that. 

 

Simple point - batsmen can't have significantly higher avg (30%-40%) than their FC avg. Since you love stats, please post list of some batsmen who have done so. 

 

But yeah, here we will see only twisting of words I guess. Numbers and history is irrelevant when it doesn't suit the narrative, but makes way to all threads on forum when it does. 

[Straight Drive]

17 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

There are many with averages close to domestic cricket. 1-2 points or 10% avg difference is not rare. I cited Sanga's example who averages 50-51 in FC and 57 in international.

 

Is there anyone who has seen international average say 40% higher than domestic average.

It is impossible to name any batsman who average 40 percent in test cricket than they do in FC. Even 20 percent is impossible.

[Trichromatic]

Just now, Straight Drive said:

It is impossible to name any batsman who average 40 percent in test cricket than they do in FC. Even 20 percent is impossible.

But Pandya will do it with help of some magic wand.

[express bowling]

8 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Who are such test batsmen?

 

 

Players not playing sufficient FC and playing in T20 leagues is a recent happening.

 

We have to assess after a few years, as such players have decent length careers.

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

No it doesn't.

 

I didn't say that. I am sure you're smart enough to understand that and still avoiding that. 

 

Simple point - batsmen can't have significantly higher avg (30%-40%) than their FC avg. Since you love stats, please post list of some batsmen who have done so. 

 

But yeah, here we will see only twisting of words I guess. 

It’s irrelevant as Pandya has already done well in his first season (relative to how others he is being compared with have done) 

 

And he has not played too many domestic games (sample size is small). I am not even sure if he has a domestic 100, and as mentioned he scored a test 100 in his debut series 

 

[Straight Drive]

3 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

But Pandya will do it with help of some magic wand.

I have been following since very late 1960's and I can't name one. Better luck to others to name.

 

Why does Pandya needs to average 40 percent higher. His test average is 35 which is fine for all rounder imo.

 

 

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

But Pandya will do it with help of some magic wand.

 

If H.Pandya plays sufficient non-test FC from now on, he will average 40+ there.  

 

He averages 62 in the 4 tests he has played in Asia.

 

He scored 73 in the only innings he played in Ranji recently  (  and took 7 wickets )

 

The quality of FC batsmanship that H.Pandya had before test debut is completely changed now.  He has been made to train intensely under the TM.

Edited January 27, 2019 by express bowling

[Trichromatic]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

If H.Pandya plays sufficient non-test FC from now on, he will average 40+ there.  

 

 He averages 62 in the 4 tests he has played in Asia.

  

He scored 73 in the only innings he played in Ranji recently  (  and took 7 wickets )

  

 The quality of FC batsmanship that H.Pandya had before test debut is completely changed now.  He has been made to train intensely by the TM.

That's what I am saying. He can develop his game in FC, but without that he can't avg more than 31-32 in test cricket. No amount of training can replace hard work in matches though.

[Trichromatic]

12 minutes ago, zen said:

It’s irrelevant as Pandya has already done well in his first season (relative to how others he is being compared with have done) 

 

And he has not played too many domestic games (sample size is small). I am not even sure if he has a domestic 100, and as mentioned he scored a test 100 in his debut series 

 

And I am still waiting for the list and examples of batsmen.

[zen]

Pandya avgs 71 in tests in Ind 

Records type batting analysis [change type]

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Host country India

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	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	11	18	1	532	108	31.29	720	73.88	1	4	2	68	12	Profile
filtered	1	1	0	71	71	71.00	94	75.53	0	1	0	10	0

 

 

SL, where conditions are similar, he averages 60

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Host country Sri Lanka

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	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	11	18	1	532	108	31.29	720	73.88	1	4	2	68	12	Profile
filtered	3	3	0	178	108	59.33	165	107.87	1	1	0	16	10