Is Hardik Pandya more talented than Jadeja in tests?

[Trichromatic]

11 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

I have been following since very late 1960's and I can't name one. Better luck to others to name.

 

Why does Pandya needs to average 40 percent higher. His test average is 35 which is fine for all rounder imo.

 

 

He averages less than 30 in non-international game. In other threads, people claimed that if he is backed even without playing FC gamaes he can avg 36-40 in test cricket which is 20-30% higher than his FC avg.

 

If he remains at 28-32 level, then he isn't suited for no 6 position for sure in long term.

[zen]

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

And I am still waiting for the list and examples of batsmen.

Irrelevant criteria 

 

And as mentioned above, Pandya averages 71 in India. And 60 in SL, where conditions are similar .... No need to mention the quality of attack vs Ranji teams 

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, zen said:

Pandya avgs 71 in tests in Ind 

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Host country India

Ordered by default (ascending)

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	11	18	1	532	108	31.29	720	73.88	1	4	2	68	12	Profile
filtered	1	1	0	71	71	71.00	94	75.53	0	1	0	10	0

 

 

SL, where conditions are similar, he averages 60

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Host country Sri Lanka

Ordered by default (ascending)

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	11	18	1	532	108	31.29	720	73.88	1	4	2	68	12	Profile
filtered	3	3	0	178	108	59.33	165	107.87	1	1	0	16	10

 

Please do present a list of some(not all) batsmen who average 20-30% higher in inernational.

[Trichromatic]

Just now, zen said:

Irrelevant criteria 

 

And as mentioned above, Pandya averages 71 in India. And 60 in SL, where conditions are similar .... No need to mention the quality of attack vs Ranji teams 

But yeah, there will some example for sure. Who are these batsmen? Or Pandya is exceptional talent?

[zen]

In 4 tests in subcon, he averages 62 at a SR of 96

 

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Host country India  or Sri Lanka

Ordered by default (ascending)

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	11	18	1	532	108	31.29	720	73.88	1	4	2	68	12	Profile
filtered	4	4	0	249	108	62.25	259	96.13	1	2	0	26	10

 

 

Interestingly, he has scored 3 50+ scores in 4 innings he has played 

[Trichromatic]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Irrelevant criteria 

 

And as mentioned above, Pandya averages 71 in India. And 60 in SL, where conditions are similar .... No need to mention the quality of attack vs Ranji teams 

Long term he can't avg more than 32-33 if he doesn't play FC cricket. There is no historical evidence to say otherwise.

[zen]

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

But yeah, there will some example for sure. Who are these batsmen? Or Pandya is exceptional talent?

Buddy, you are barking at the wrong tree as everyone knows:

 

• Sample size of Pandya's domestic is small 
• He has been fast tracked to international cricket based on potential 
• That he averages 62 in subcon conditions vs international teams. Scoring a 50 or more runs in an inning 75% of the time
• His SR is 96, which bring another dimension to the game esp. in subcon where you may want to score runs relatively quickly 

 

 

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, zen said:

Buddy, you are barking at the wrong tree as everyone knows:

 

• Sample size of Pandya's domestic is small 
• He has been fast tracked to international cricket based on potential 
•  That he averages 62 in subcon conditions vs international teams. Scoring a 50 or more runs in an inning 75% of the time
•  His SR is 96, which bring another dimension to the game esp. in subcon where you may want to score runs relatively quickly 

  

  

You're just looking for a non-existent shortcut for success.

 

Still can't find examples though.

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Long term he can't avg more than 32-33 if he doesn't play FC cricket. There is no historical evidence to say otherwise.

Who cares about historical evidence? 

 

[express bowling]

17 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

That's what I am saying. He can develop his game in FC, but without that he can't avg more than 31-32 in test cricket. No amount of training can replace hard work in matches though.

 

I would love it if Pandya gets to play more Ranji Trophy and other domestic FC matches.

 

But that seems unlikely as he will be part of our LOI squads.  (  Look what happened to Khaleel  ).

 

Test cricket against weaker teams like Zim, WI, Afghanistan and SL will give him some FC practice too.

 

Should be allowed to play A-team unofficial test matches if we want to develop him as a test player.

 

The planning has to be there.

 

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by express bowling

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

You're just looking for a non-existent shortcut for success.

 

Still can't find examples though.

As I have said, domestic averages are to spot the talent to represent Ind. If the potential can be determined through other means, that is acceptable as well

 

I have no idea what Sehwag and Dhoni's stats were in domestics when they made debut. But watching them play, I knew these were the players who can be backed. Similarly for Pandya 

Edited January 27, 2019 by zen

[Straight Drive]

8 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

He averages less than 30 in non-international game. In other threads, people claimed that if he is backed even without playing FC gamaes he can avg 36-40 in test cricket which is 20-30% higher than his FC avg.

 

If he remains at 28-32 level, then he isn't suited for no 6 position for sure in long term.

Just checked his test batting average is  29.13 to be precise. I wouldnot mind even if he has batting average of 30. I would not really look or stress that  he needs to average even 10 percent higher, but if he does its gladly accepted a 20 percent is impossible imo but then no need for all rounder to average 36 . There is a workaround. He can improve his bowling.

 

If he becomes better bowler then that batting average of 30 is a non-issue to me.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Just checked his test batting average is  29.13 to be precise. I wouldnot mind even if he has batting average of 30. I would not really look or stress that  he needs to average even 10 percent higher, but if he does its gladly accepted a 20 percent is impossible imo but then no need for all rounder to average 36 . There is a workaround. He can improve his bowling.

 

If he becomes better bowler then that batting average of 30 is a non-issue to me.

Pandya's batting avg is 31 

 

 

[zen]

@Trichromatic

 

below are Sehwag's stats

 

Batting and fielding averages

	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	4s	6s	Ct	St
Tests	104	180	6	8586	319	49.34	10441	82.23	23	32	1233	91	91	0
ODIs	251	245	9	8273	219	35.05	7929	104.33	15	38	1132	136	93	0
T20Is	19	18	0	394	68	21.88	271	145.38	0	2	43	16	2	0
First-class	194	321	11	14683	319	47.36			42	55			166	0
List A	332	321	14	10454	219	34.05			16	57			120	0
T20s	159	157	6	4061	122	26.89	2747	147.83	2	24	487	147	42	0

 

• his FC avg is 47, which is less than his test avg of 49. FC includes numbers from tests, so domestic only numbers would be even less (can be calculated by subtracting test numbers from FC) 

 

Similarly for Dhoni:

 

Batting and fielding averages

	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	4s	6s	Ct	St
Tests	90	144	16	4876	224	38.09	8249	59.11	6	33	544	78	256	38
ODIs	337	285	81	10414	183*	51.04	11871	87.72	10	70	798	222	311	119
T20Is	93	80	40	1487	56	37.17	1170	127.09	0	2	107	47	54	33
First-class	131	210	19	7038	224	36.84			9	47			364	57
List A	410	352	96	12994	183*	50.75			17	84			392	137
T20s	297	266	108	6075	79*	38.44	4461	136.18	0	24	420	267	156	77

 

 

And I said that I believed in backing these two without knowing their domestic stats when they started based on how they played (and when there were relatively technically sound players around). Similarly, the case for Pandya 

 

Thank you! 

Edited January 27, 2019 by zen

[Straight Drive]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Pandya's batting avg is 31 

 

 

I see I posted ODI average. You're correct its 31.29.

 

[Jimmy Cliff]

44 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

It is impossible to name any batsman who average 40 percent in test cricket than they do in FC. Even 20 percent is impossible.

Some notable exceptions being:

 

Ken Barrington who averaged 58+ in Tests but "only" 45+ in FC overall (28% higher in Tests).

Tony Greig who averaged 40+ in Tests but 31 in FC overall (29% higher in Tests).

 

 

[Straight Drive]

The last I had checked few series back, his test bat average was around 35. So I had posted that 35 in one of my post. Seems it has dropped by 4 runs. However, I also see his bowling strike rate has improved significantly too. I am sure it was 88 few series abck and I see it 55 55.12. So it's not that his performance in both skills is on decline. The lesser runs are covered by improved bowling. 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

The last I had checked few series back, his test bat average was around 35. So I had posted that 35 in one of my post. Seems it has dropped by 4 runs. However, I also see his bowling strike rate has improved significantly too. I am sure it was 88 few series abck and I see it 55 55.12. So it's not that his performance in both skills is on decline. The lesser runs are covered by improved bowling. 

Pandya avgs 60+ with the bat in subcon .... When bowling, he does well when he gets a relatively hard ball. Many times he is only bowling to give rest to the bowlers when the new ball is around the corner 

Edited January 27, 2019 by zen

[Straight Drive]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Some notable exceptions being:

 

Ken Barrington who averaged 58+ in Tests but "only" 45+ in FC overall (28% higher in Tests).

Tony Greig who averaged 40+ in Tests but 31 in FC overall (29% higher in Tests).

 

 

You have found two pins from mountains of  hay stack. Well done.

 

How many test caps have been given in history of test cricket. Any way to find that ? Okay if this is skipped though.

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Straight Drive

[express bowling]

Pandya has played 7 of his 11 test matches in SA and England ... which are currently 2 of the toughest places to bat nowadays.

 

None of our other batsmen could average even 30 on these 2 tough away tours barring Kohli ( who averaged 54.5  )

 

Stands to reason that his overall batting average of 31+  will improve significantly if he gets to play tests in different conditions including Asia and Australia  (  he averages 62 in the 4 tests he has played in Asia  ) ...  and he gathers more experience as a test batsman.