How useful would Shankar + Jadhav be in the WC19?

[vvvslaxman]

India doesn't have options. You cannot replace a batting all rounder either with bowler or batsman. You cannot load your side with 25 players. It is not Shankar's fault our top order can't bowl to save their life and our lower order can't bat to save their life. In English conditions guys like Vijay SHankar have more chances of picking up a wicket or two compared to any other countries.

 

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/icc-world-cup/vijay-shankars-bowling-will-be-handy-in-english-conditions-sourav-ganguly/articleshow/69115823.cms

[vvvslaxman]

Ideal scenario is our top order bats most part and let Dhoni and Pandya finish the innings with a bit of support from Jadhav and SHankar. If India dares to go with just 5 bowlers Dinesh karthik is always an option.

[zen]

 

 

 

 

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Just now, vvvslaxman said:

India doesn't have options. You cannot replace a batting all rounder either with bowler or batsman. You cannot load your side with 25 players. It is not Shankar's fault our top order can't bowl to save their life and our lower order can't bat to save their life. In English conditions guys like Vijay SHankar have more chances of picking up a wicket or two compared to any other countries.

 

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/icc-world-cup/vijay-shankars-bowling-will-be-handy-in-english-conditions-sourav-ganguly/articleshow/69115823.cms

Why are you going in circles and when you provide options yourself:

 

 

 

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I still think KL Rahul will bat at no.4 Dhoni at no.5  Jadhav/Shankar at no.6 Pandya at no.7 Bhuvi/Shami at no.8  Jaddu/CHahal at no.9 Kuldeep 10 Bumrah 11

 

If Jadhav and/or Shankar do not do well, they will be replaced 

[vvvslaxman]

I am using your theory of Shankar and Jadhav  playing and failing. India will no way risk going in with just 5 bowling options one of them being Pandya. If Chahal gets cartered around and he implodes India will be forced to complete his quota. One of either Jadhav or Shankar will definitely part of the XI. 

 

Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, Rahul, Dhoni, Karthik, Pandya will be a good line up as it has 3 finishers. But only Pandya can bowl in the top 7. We don't have someone like Yuvraj, Sehwag, Raina, Tendulkar, Ganguly to share the 5th bowling option.  This is fundamentally an imbalanced line up. TO make matter worse 7 or 8 are terrible fielders as well. This is where Shankar will be the best compromising choice. Far from perfect. But his presence will balance the team better.

[zen]

 

 

 

 

3

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

I am using your theory of Shankar and Jadhav  playing and failing. India will no way risk going in with just 5 bowling options one of them being Pandya. If Chahal gets cartered around and he implodes India will be forced to complete his quota. One of either Jadhav or Shankar will definitely part of the XI. 

 

Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, Rahul, Dhoni, Karthik, Pandya will be a good line up as it has 3 finishers. But only Pandya can bowl in the top 7. We don't have someone like Yuvraj, Sehwag, Raina, Tendulkar, Ganguly to share the 5th bowling option.  This is fundamentally an imbalanced line up. TO make matter worse 7 or 8 are terrible fielders as well.

which is why I wrote the below:

 

"If these two start in the first 2-3 games and do not perform, Ind could be forced to go in with 5 bowlers in the remaining games for an 11 such as:

 

• Rohit (0.5)
• Dhawan (0.75)
• Kohli (1.25) 
• KL (0.75)
• Pandya (1) 
• Dhoni (0.75) 
• Bhuvi / Jadeja (0.75) 
• Kuldeep (1)
• Shami (1)
• Chahal (1) 
• Bumrah (1) 

 

Quote

This is where Shankar will be the best compromising choice. Far from perfect. But his presence will balance the team better.

Only if he is performing with the bat otherwise he is a passenger 

[vvvslaxman]

That is applicable to everyone lol Atleast Shankar has two other departments he can make up. If Dhawan/Kohli/Rohit/Bumrah/Chahal fail in their department there is nothing they can do. I would rather back Shankar over Jadeja lol. Why do you think jadeja has more chance of clicking than Shankar with bat?  Jadeja is there only for fielding as a substitute.  First of all India will not be doing chopping and changing. For all we know Pandya can totally flunk in the world cup and Shankar can turn it around. It is totally possible given that Shankar is technically a better batsman. Hitting sixes don't mean Pandya can survive swinging balls.

[zen]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

That is applicable to everyone lol Atleast Shankar has two other departments he can make up. If Dhawan/Kohli/Rohit/Bumrah/Chahal fail in their department there is nothing they can do. I would rather back Shankar over Jadeja lol. Why do you think jadeja has more chance of clicking than Shankar with bat?  Jadeja is there only for fielding as a substitute.  First of all India will not be doing chopping and changing. For all we know Pandya can totally flunk in the world cup and Shankar can turn it around. It is totally possible given that Shankar is technically a better batsman. Hitting sixes don't mean Pandya can survive swinging balls.

If you read the original post, it assumes that Ind starts with Shankar and Jadhav. So if they fail after 2-3 games, the only option would be to bring in KL at #4 and Jadeja/Bhuvi at 7

 

If you think KL, who is in relatively better form, is already at #4, then the batting is strengthened relatively. Now if we assume that Shankar and Jadhav are struggling (that would be shown in the chances that they get), then at #7, anyone in decent form is better than these struggling batsmen.  And you can get more effective overs out of Bhuvi/Jadeja relatively. While Pandya (instead of Shankar/Jadhav) becomes the 6th bowler (instead of 5th)

Edited May 2, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

47 minutes ago, zen said:

If you read the original post, it assumes that Ind starts with Shankar and Jadhav. So if they fail after 2-3 games, the only option would be to bring in KL at #4 and Jadeja/Bhuvi at 7

 

If you think KL, who is in relatively better form, is already at #4, then the batting is strengthened relatively. Now if we assume that Shankar and Jadhav are struggling (that would be shown in the chances that they get), then at #7, anyone in decent form is better than these struggling batsmen.  And you can get more effective overs out of Bhuvi/Jadeja relatively. While Pandya (instead of Shankar/Jadhav) becomes the 6th bowler (instead of 5th)

No. If they fail you give them more chances. Not bring another one who will fail as well.  Idea that you think Bhuvi/Jadeja are as good as Jadhav or SHankar in itself is wrong.  WE already have a long tail. You want to make it longer by playing Jaddu or Bhuvi at 7? Bhuvi is at best a no.8 batsman.  VIjay SHankar averages 47 at first class. He or Jadhav have to play with Rahul taking the no.4 spot. India might play 5 bowlers against weaker teams. Even then it is risky. Any top order collapse means, virtual stall in the middle overs and inning will end up in a wimper. A total like 220 can be chased even by Afghanistan in the right batting conditions.

[SK_IH]

I have lost confidence in Jadhav and I think he will be a liability

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

I have lost confidence in Jadhav and I think he will be a liability

He is a "maverick" like Pakistan lol You never know when he will shine. Anyway i don't think they will drop him. SHankar will sit out. Jadhav made 61 at the MCG, 81 at hyderbad. Most recent innings was 44. So they will include him in the starting XI. His fielding sucks. It is a given. What i am worried is his side spin. Opposition will definitely target him.

[zen]

38 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

No. If they fail you give them more chances. Not bring another one who will fail as well.  Idea that you think Bhuvi/Jadeja are as good as Jadhav or SHankar in itself is wrong.  WE already have a long tail. You want to make it longer by playing Jaddu or Bhuvi at 7? Bhuvi is at best a no.8 batsman.  VIjay SHankar averages 47 at first class. He or Jadhav have to play with Rahul taking the no.4 spot. India might play 5 bowlers against weaker teams. Even then it is risky. Any top order collapse means, virtual stall in the middle overs and inning will end up in a wimper. A total like 220 can be chased even by Afghanistan in the right batting conditions.

It would depend upon how everyone is shaping up. If someone is failing but looking good then I would give him relatively more chances. On the other hand, if the player looks totally out of it, I would replace him depending upon how the options are shaping up. In a tourney like WC, no one (the ones that can be replaced) gets a blank check

 

At this point, we have seen how everyone in the squad is shaping up so first-class averages, which are more useful to bring a player into the squad, do not mean much. I pick a batsman to either get a big score at a high conversion rate or make an impact, if not both. I back a player if he is showing good form or appears to be shaping up well. Therefore, if a fringe batsman is struggling consistently, it does not help the team that much with its totals and such contributions can often be covered by others as well. The idea is to get the best inform players, who can help the team overall, from the squad in the 11.  An inform player equals 2-3 struggling players. Teams should not be selected to do well theoretically on paper 

 

If everyone is in good batting form or shaping up well, I would play either Jadhav or Shankar at 7 (as they are in the squad).  If not, a backup plan comes into play where the best inform options that can help the team overall are considered 

Edited May 2, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

Inform or out of form cannot be judged based on T20 international let alone IPL league where he plays for a team that has an awfully specific role for him which is not the same role for him in the one-dayers while representing India. In one-dayers, you have a lot of time. You can take your time to build your innings. 

 

Following are V Shankar's numbers. He managed to strike over 100 3 times.  26 in 15 balls i would gladly take it. In Wellington when he came in score was 18/4. He put on a 98 partnership with Rayudu who looked clueless against seamers almost getting out several times. Around 23rd over Rayudu 14(46) Shankar 26(40). On the other hand Shankar was assured.

 

45	84	64	4	0	70.31	6	run out	1		v New Zealand	Wellington	3 Feb 2019	ODI # 4092
DNB	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	2		v Australia	Hyderabad (Deccan)	2 Mar 2019	ODI # 4102
46	-	41	5	1	112.19	5	run out	1		v Australia	Nagpur	5 Mar 2019	ODI # 4106
32	-	30	4	0	106.66	7	caught	2		v Australia	Ranchi	8 Mar 2019	ODI # 4109
26	-	15	1	2	173.33	7	caught	1		v Australia	Mohali	10 Mar 2019	ODI # 4111
16	-	21	0	1	76.19	5	caught	2		v Australia	Delhi

 

 

Let me share some of the comments from cricinfo during that wellington match. Let us not quick to forget what they did based on his outing with Sunsetters Hyderabad lol

 

Jedidiah Daniel: "Vijay Shankar is a better batting allrounder than Hardik in terms of the technique. But Hardik has the added advantage of hitting big which Vijay clearly lacks and he needs it to play at that position, considering the fact that the top 3 rarely fail. "

 

Aziz: "Shankar really looked at ease vs the swinging ball.I wonder if he gets a big score today will he also add himself to wc contention for the 6th bowlers slot" --- He has been good v the swinging ball and has been TN's tough run's man in the Ranji Trophy. International cricket is a different beast but Vijay has looked good so far

 

Karthik: "Vjs rotating with ease and raydu struggling for the same.. Fear raydu's desperation get vjs run out"

 

Kshitij Jain : "@ Karthik: you should buy a lottery ticket today...Shankar gets run out by Rayadu's inability to rotate strike " --- Jadhav arrives

[vvvslaxman]

Let me share comments from his match against Australia at Nagpur

 

Giggity: "Rayudu and Kohli partnership was 51 deliveries of which Rayudu took 32 and made 18. Need to improve strike rotation. V.Shankar at the same time, rotating strike very well."

 

Saurabh: "I don't think you have to look any further than Vijay Shankar to understand why Rayudu has question marks over his place despite a decent average. He makes up during longer innings, but he is infuriatingly slow in first 25-30 balls."

 

Surya: "Vijay Shankar is the kind of no.4 Indian team were looking for. A batsman with a technique to hold against the new ball, good enough to hit out later and also few overs of seam up which seems priceless. Feel he got in a bit late unfortunately to be considered seriously for the WC unless he scores a ton here."

 

Sagin: "Thats a run a ball 50 run partnership which is excellent considering the sluggish pitch."

 

 

Ajay Kumar S: "Rare to find someone overshadowing Kohli. Hardly seen anyone doing that apart from Rohit. Vijay Shankar is here to stay!"

Sandeep Jalda: "All r busy comparing Vijay Shankar wid Hardik pandya.. They are two completely different players wid skill set suiting different phases of game.. Like Kallis n Klusener both should be included in the side."

 

 

 

[rkt.india]

10 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Zen stop dismissing legitimate points as irrelevant What they say is relevant. Based on your assumption Pant cannot even be a backup as he is far too unreliable. Shankar not being used by SRH as a bowler is not Shankars fault. Don’t forget he won a ODI with his last over. He also fielded better than most. He even outshone Kohli in a partnership with Kohli. 

Pant still has more runs than Shankar and Jadhav. Then what it makes them? Pant has close 350 runs in the IPL already.  His last season was 600 runs season.  Now, he is not going to have 500-600 runs every season as that is over expectation from a 21 year old.

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Pant still has more runs than Shankar and Jadhav. Then what it makes them? Pant has close 350 runs in the IPL already.  His last season was 600 runs season.  Now, he is not going to have 500-600 runs every season as that is over expectation from a 21 year old.

5, 7, 78*, 6, 7, 23, 46, 18, 5, 39 . 5 single digits in the last 10 innings. 4 in the last 5 innings. 

[zen]

23 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Pant still has more runs than Shankar and Jadhav. Then what it makes them? Pant has close 350 runs in the IPL already.  His last season was 600 runs season.  Now, he is not going to have 500-600 runs every season as that is over expectation from a 21 year old.

Not to forget that in this IPL too, Pant played 2-3 knocks to single handedly win the games for his team .... Amazing talent! 

Edited May 2, 2019 by zen

[rkt.india]

19 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

5, 7, 78*, 6, 7, 23, 46, 18, 5, 39 . 5 single digits in the last 10 innings. 4 in the last 5 innings. 

You will have to see what he has done overall.  overall he has 348 runs.  No 21 year old is going to be consistent.  If you go by IPL, Kohli should not have been in Indian team as well in 2011 WC because his performance in 2008 IPL was 165 runs at 15 poor SR, 2009 246 at 22 with poor SR, and 2010 307 at 28 SR was good. Compare that to Pant's 4 IPL so far and I can tell you Pant is the best 21 year old Indian batsman that I have seen. Can you tell what scores Shankar and Jadhav have in their last 10 innings .  Shankar has 180, half the runs of Pant this IPL. Pant has an average of 35 with an SR of 162 over all in the IPL.  Kohli average 38, SR 131.  Pant has just been a bigger impact player than Kohli and that too at 21.

[vvvslaxman]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

Not to forget that in this IPL too, Pant played 2-3 knocks to single handedly win the games for his team .... Amazing talent! 

Not a good fielder. Not a bowler either. He can only walk in as a keeper. We don't have "afridi roles" in the team. Afridi could bowl. You cannot randomly hoick every now and then leaving the side in a precarious situation. When he doesn't hit he is nothing as he does not have game to rotate the strike. He will be just another poorer version of Rahane.  Boom or bust guy. Even that Boom is only 30% chance. Pandya is a much more reliable, stronger hitter than Pant. Also he has a game to take it slowly if needed. He can bowl and field well. Karthik can play a more damaging innings in the back end on his day. He doesn't rely on powerplays. 

[vvvslaxman]

 

 

 

 

 

 

5

Just now, rkt.india said:

You will have to see what he has done overall.  overall he has 348 runs.  No 21 year old is going to be consistent.  If you go by IPL, Kohli should not have been in Indian team as well in 2011 WC because his performance in 2008 IPL was 165 runs at 15 poor SR, 2009 246 at 22 with poor SR, and 2010 307 at 28 SR was good. Compare that to Pant's 4 IPL so far and I can tell you Pant is the best 21 year old Indian batsman that I have seen. Can you tell what scores Shankar and Jadhav have in their last 10 innings .  Shankar has 180, half the runs of Pant this IPL. Pant has an average of 35 with an SR of 162 over all in the IPL.  Kohli average 38, SR 131.  Pant has just been a bigger impact player than Kohli and that too at 21.

Glad we are on the same page. You missed the whole argument then. I say "Don't go by the IPL alone" as One day format is different.

[zen]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Not a good fielder. Not a bowler either. He can only walk in as a keeper. We don't have "afridi roles" in the team. Afridi could bowl. You cannot randomly hoick every now and then leaving the side in a precarious situation. When he doesn't hit he is nothing as he does not have game to rotate the strike. He will be just another poorer version of Rahane.  Boom or bust guy. Even that Boom is only 30% chance. Pandya is a much more reliable, stronger hitter than Pant. Also he has a game to take it slowly if needed. He can bowl and field well. Karthik can play a more damaging innings in the back end on his day. He doesn't rely on powerplays. 

A team needs different type of batsmen. We have Kohli to anchor the innings and aim for consistency. The likes of Dhoni are there too to use their experience. Therefore, guys like Pant make even more sense to try to take the game away from the other team. If they get out, we still have others. If they succeed, Ind puts up an above par total or ends up with a beneficial NRR

 

Ind not only needs Pandya but likes of Pant as well. Both of them need to be played in optimal batting positions