A question for those who followed cricket diligently in the 1990s

[MechEng]

17 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

 

This is what Eoin Morgan had to say about him nearly a decade later.

 

https://twitter.com/Eoin16/status/59265563200983040

 

@Eoin16

toughest bowler to face at the moment? Wasim Akram in the KKR nets..he could easily still play!! QUALITY!!

This is me when I bowl in cricket 07 at one star difficulty.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwaUuvxYOIY

[Rightarmfast]

Almost all of them were equally dangerous. Waqar was dangerous till 95, not post that. Walsh I would put below all. Heres my list -

 

Donald/ Wasim/ Ambrose

Waqar

Walsh

 

This is my honest feedback. Almost all these bowlers were very dangerous. They always looked like they could take a wicket the next ball. And Indian batsmen were easy pickings for them especially abroad.

[rkt.india]

On 4/25/2020 at 9:40 PM, Stan AF said:

Ambrose

Wasim

Donald

Walsh

Waqar

 

In hindsight Ambrose and Wasim are almost neck to neck. Ambrose rarely gave away anything as his stats suggest. GOAT Bowler. Be it Tests/ODIs. He was just too good. At one stage his ODI econ rate was 2.57. Wasim is almost on par with Ambrose, IMO. He used to take wickets for fun IN Odi's. He was never really easy to get away with by the opposition batsmen. Ambrose and Wasim are top 1 and 2. Both these bowlers suffered from their team batsmen not complimenting their bowling efforts.

 

Donald was very good against almost everyone except for the Aussies. They always played him more or less well. He is easily the quickest among all the bowlers listed here. Walsh was a workhorse bowler. Still remember coming home from school during the Aus/WI semi in 1996 to see ambrose/walsh having bowled 10-11 opening overs against australia for a paltry 12-15 runs team score. he genuinely complimented ambrose in their playing days.

 

Waqar showed a lot of talent/promise but in my opinion he fizzled out in the later parts of his career. He could have been even more deadlier than wasim but it wasn't to be.

 

Ideally a great man is missing from this list and it's the incomparable Pigeon.

Waqar after back injury had lost a lot of pace which was his strength. The difference between defensive and attacking bowlers. Attacking bowlers won't be same once they lose pace. Defensive bowlers like Akram, Mcgrath, Walsh can do well even with moderate pace.

[rkt.india]

19 hours ago, MechEng said:

We get made fun of for not chasing 120, but how on earth can you deal with this bowling?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Ym9Ajhlz4

It was a bad pitch. Even our below average bowling got them out quickly.

[rkt.india]

On 4/25/2020 at 9:42 PM, Stan AF said:

The class of this particular list hasn't been seen in the last 10 years or so. No Kidding at all. Bowling has degenerated.

No, batting has improved, bowling hasn't degenerated. Those same bowlers won't any better than what bowlers today are doing.

[rkt.india]

3 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Almost all of them were equally dangerous. Waqar was dangerous till 95, not post that. Walsh I would put below all. Heres my list -

 

Donald/ Wasim/ Ambrose

Waqar

Walsh

 

This is my honest feedback. Almost all these bowlers were very dangerous. They always looked like they could take a wicket the next ball. And Indian batsmen were easy pickings for them especially abroad.

Also because Indian batting was very poor and could hardly play pace except Tendulkar before Dravid came along. Laxman started thriving in 2000s.

[rkt.india]

On 4/26/2020 at 9:32 AM, Stan AF said:

Steyn was good, very good. But wasim is an ATG. 

Wasim could generate quick pace with a limited run up and quick arm action. Probably the only guy I've seen to generate pace with that limited runup. He could swing the ball both ways, bowl quick toe crushing yorkers and bouncers aiming at the body.

See this ball for crazy late/reverse swing. The ball literally changes direction at the very last yard as it deviates from the bat and thuds on to the pad.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UPaPiOVIMo

Wasim wasn't quicker than Steyn. He didn't have bowling action to bowl real quick and wasn't a 90 mph bowler, was more like Nehra, always bowled at a decent pace without being extremely quick like Waqar was, Akram was more a skiddy bowler.

 

Here's a similar delivery bowled by Akhtar. It's all tukka, a fluke. You can't plan to bowl such deliveries. They just happen.

 

https://youtu.be/UytUuvEPbGY

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by rkt.india

[rkt.india]

19 hours ago, MechEng said:

Was 90's cricket really this good?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0eTwIm_f5c

Walsh is trundling there. Ball not even carrying to the wk. Uneven bounce due to the bad pitch which was often the case in WI.  It is not good cricket but the bad pitch and it's tennis ball bounce. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by rkt.india

[MechEng]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

It was a bad pitch. Even our below average bowling got them out quickly.

Just look at the ball Ganguly got 

[MechEng]

1 hour ago, Cricspin said:

Walsh has tons of wickets meaning he did well over an extended period of time. This also means there were many occasions when he would be unplayable.  But the question was scary and I never felt scary watching walsh.. The runup, speeds, attitude was not threatening. Its not good or bad .. Just did not give the scary feeling to me.

 

Most carribbean bowlers had that lazy vibe about them.

[MechEng]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Wasim wasn't quicker than Steyn. He didn't have bowling action to bowl real quick and wasn't a 90 mph bowler, was more like Nehra, always bowled at a decent pace without being extremely quick like Waqar was, Akram was more a skiddy bowler.

 

Here's a similar delivery bowled by Akhtar. It's all tukka, a fluke. You can't plan to bowl such deliveries. They just happen.

 

https://youtu.be/UytUuvEPbGY

 

Laxman always had a weakness against pitched up inswing. I wonder why did McGrath, Lee and Gillespie never bowled those pitched up inswingers to him,

[MechEng]

7 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Almost all of them were equally dangerous. Waqar was dangerous till 95, not post that. Walsh I would put below all. Heres my list -

 

Donald/ Wasim/ Ambrose

Waqar

Walsh

 

This is my honest feedback. Almost all these bowlers were very dangerous. They always looked like they could take a wicket the next ball. And Indian batsmen were easy pickings for them especially abroad.

Who would you rate higher in Donald vs Steyn? Ignore the stats, just by the vibe you got watching them.

[Oldhere]

Donald

Wasim/Ambrose

Walsh

Waqar

 

Reason for donald being top is that he simply killed India be it in Africa or in India till 2000's.

Steyn to me is very close to Donald/Wasim/Ambrose in terms of impact but if there is one bowler who to me gave vibe of fear it was Mcgrath.

 

[rkt.india]

10 hours ago, MechEng said:

Laxman always had a weakness against pitched up inswing. I wonder why did McGrath, Lee and Gillespie never bowled those pitched up inswingers to him,

It was not an inswinger. It was a low fulltoss that was coming in with the angle but swung away very late and became an outswinger. Laxman played for the angle but ball just moved away in the air very late.

[rkt.india]

11 hours ago, MechEng said:

Who would you rate higher in Donald vs Steyn? Ignore the stats, just by the vibe you got watching them.

Very difficult to differentiate the two on greatness level. Donald was taller, would get more bounce but didn't have the outswing of Dale Steyn.  Pace and accuracy wise both are similar. Donald isn't talked about as much as Steyn because he played less and had lesser number of wickets. Donald was for SA in 90s what Steyn was in 2010s.  McGrath, Ambrose, Donald were three top bowlers of 90s.  While Steyn remained on top in 2010s in a much more batting friendly era where T20 cricket changed the game for fast bowlers. It gave batsmen the self belief they never had. Batsmen now could thrash any bowler in the world express or not. They had more shots in the armer, willing to take more risks, more powerful, more audacious than ever.

 

In 90s, we had handful of such batsmen but now there were more, in every team.  Fast bowlers being getting thrashed in T20s on flat pitches had lost their aura of 80s and 90s.  Only extreme skill bowlers like Malinga survived their wrath a bit. Creating an aura for any fast bowler became a humungous task because batsmen weren't anymore afraid of the pace, their reflexes against pace had improved, they were training to hit the ball far than ever, 50-60 ball hundreds, 25-30 ball 50s were frequent occurrences than ever. It was not because bowlers regressed but because evolution of aggressive batting which the fast bowlers were real victim of, on flat pitches, ball not doing anything off the pitch.  The aura that 80s and 90s fast bowlers had wasn't there anymore. We had more fast bowlers capable of bowling 90 mph than ever, almost every top team had one, some more than one but they hardly had the same aura of someone like Lillie, Roberts, Marshal, Holding, Waqar, Ambrose, Wasim, Donald.

 

Now remember all this and see how Dale Steyn created an aura in the same decade in test cricket, Mitchell Starc did it in ODIs, and someone like Mitchell Johnson terrorised English and South African batsmen in 2013 season. These feats are as big a cricketing achievements as any.  It's not easy to be a fast bowler anymore. Their battles need much higher intensity for much longer duration, much more lopsided in the favour of batsmen and they have a lot to gain, but they have already lost so much ground to the batsmen that recovery is nowhere in sight. 

 

Now Steyn and Donald comparison keeping in mind what I said above, I rate Dale Steyn as the greatest test fast bowler ever.  

Edited April 28, 2020 by rkt.india

[coffee_rules]

I would rate Steyn higher than all, for being a tear away bowler, could run through sides, but in terms of Impact, rate

 

Ambrose

Donald/Wasim

walsh

waqar

 

Ambrose in the Garner mode, could do what Steyn does, he was most lethal even in unhelpful pitches. I rate Donald and Wasim on the same as they were strike bowlers, the captains bowler to strike when needed most. 

[rkt.india]

17 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I would rate Steyn higher than all, for being a tear away bowler, could run through sides, but in terms of Impact, rate

 

Ambrose

Donald/Wasim

walsh

waqar

 

Ambrose in the Garner mode, could do what Steyn does, he was most lethal even in unhelpful pitches. I rate Donald and Wasim on the same as they were strike bowlers, the captains bowler to strike when needed most. 

It's opposite infact, Ambrose was good great on bad pitches 4th-5th days pitches. His higher SR in comparison to all other bowlers in the list is a big indicator. 

 

The thing is if we overlook stats then we just talk about perception.

[coffee_rules]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

It's opposite infact, Ambrose was good great on bad pitches 4th-5th days pitches. His higher SR in comparison to all other bowlers in the list is a big indicator. 

 

The thing is if we overlook stats then we just talk about perception.

The OP was about perception (those who followed) , having watched, Ambrose looked like talking a wicket on most deliveries. I haven’t verified stats guru, every bowler has great 4th inning stats

[MechEng]

6 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Very difficult to differentiate the two on greatness level. Donald was taller, would get more bounce but didn't have the outswing of Dale Steyn.  Pace and accuracy wise both are similar. Donald isn't talked about as much as Steyn because he played less and had lesser number of wickets. Donald was for SA in 90s what Steyn was in 2010s.  McGrath, Ambrose, Donald were three top bowlers of 90s.  While Steyn remained on top in 2010s in a much more batting friendly era where T20 cricket changed the game for fast bowlers. It gave batsmen the self belief they never had. Batsmen now could thrash any bowler in the world express or not. They had more shots in the armer, willing to take more risks, more powerful, more audacious than ever.

 

In 90s, we had handful of such batsmen but now there were more, in every team.  Fast bowlers being getting thrashed in T20s on flat pitches had lost their aura of 80s and 90s.  Only extreme skill bowlers like Malinga survived their wrath a bit. Creating an aura for any fast bowler became a humungous task because batsmen weren't anymore afraid of the pace, their reflexes against pace had improved, they were training to hit the ball far than ever, 50-60 ball hundreds, 25-30 ball 50s were frequent occurrences than ever. It was not because bowlers regressed but because evolution of aggressive batting which the fast bowlers were real victim of, on flat pitches, ball not doing anything off the pitch.  The aura that 80s and 90s fast bowlers had wasn't there anymore. We had more fast bowlers capable of bowling 90 mph than ever, almost every top team had one, some more than one but they hardly had the same aura of someone like Lillie, Roberts, Marshal, Holding, Waqar, Ambrose, Wasim, Donald.

 

Now remember all this and see how Dale Steyn created an aura in the same decade in test cricket, Mitchell Starc did it in ODIs, and someone like Mitchell Johnson terrorised English and South African batsmen in 2013 season. These feats are as big a cricketing achievements as any.  It's not easy to be a fast bowler anymore. Their battles need much higher intensity for much longer duration, much more lopsided in the favour of batsmen and they have a lot to gain, but they have already lost so much ground to the batsmen that recovery is nowhere in sight. 

 

Now Steyn and Donald comparison keeping in mind what I said above, I rate Dale Steyn as the greatest test fast bowler ever.  

 

Great post. I wish I had your phone number, and told you in person how awesome this post is. Such an amazing observation of the game and especially that batsmen have become a lot more fearless with even someone like Stuart Broad was hitting 140 kph deliveries of Amir for fours in 2010.

 

Though we have improved massively when it comes to power hitting, our batting has regressed in temperament aspect, they have great techniques but cannot play long a innings like Laxman, Jayawardene or Chanderpaul did in the past. Pujara is the only exception to this.

[nevada]

 

For sheer fear factor and intimidation,  Ambrose is my pick for #1. in the early 90s he was a fearsome opponent with a physical presence reminiscent of his similarly tall predecessor Joel Garner. Toe crushing yorkers, heavy bounce, deadly accuracy and a chilly demeanour - he had it all to make batsmen as  well as spectators afraid. In the early 90s he was a most destructive, feared bowler.