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Muloghonto

LCA Tejas MK1A- Final approval granted

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https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1688287

 

Big news for Make in India and our defence sector. 

The CCS- Cabinet Committee on Security approved 40,000 crores funding for acquisition of 73 LCA Tejas MK1A + 10 trainer versions of the aircraft. 

One final step is left - the formal signing of the order between IAF and HAL - which is scheduled to take place next month at Aero India. 
Once the CCS approves an acquisition, it takes a few weeks to a couple of months max for the actual work on the projects to begin, so this is big news for Indian defence sector.

 

Jai Hind:isalute:

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This is also a critical development for make in India defence projects, particularly in the aviation sector. For years, we have been caught in a chicken and egg kind of a scenario - IAF complains about chronic delays in HAL's delivery of the Tejas, while HAL complains that delays are inevitable when orders are so small where it can only deliver 1 aircraft a month built sequentially, where even 1 day off for 4 people will have an impact on schedule. As such, IAF kept saying 'deliver to us on time and you will get more orders from us' while HAL kept saying ' order in bulk so we can run multiple assembly lines and not just one and can make up for logistical delays by having multiple nodes etc'.

 

Well, HAL has finally gotten what its wanted- a bulk order. 83 planes scheduled to be delivered in a 4-5 year span. If HAL can keep its target within reasonable parameters ( all defence procurement, particularly aviation- sees delays- even the F-22 saw delays in induction, so did F-35, Rafale initial batch etc- but the delays were within a 1-1.5 year target for the whole order completion date) then a much bigger prize awaits - the MCA - Medium Combat Aircraft deal - expected to be around 220 aircrafts or 12+ squadrons worth, plus the AMCA deal.

 

@Stradlater you must be very proud. 

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4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I don’t understand how IAF has to pay 48k crores to. PSU like HAL? Both are funded by taxpayers money? Also, divestment ideas of this government is laughable. Like LIC buying SAIL

i dont know what u said. 

Why does it matter if its a PSU or private ? cost of manufacturing is cost of manufacturing and unless you do America-style 2000+ humongous order, the cost of the birds are big- it takes several billions of dollars to set up the infra to build it. This is why the Rafale costs us- as well as the French - nearly twice as much as it costs the Americans to make the F-35. 

 

I dont get what you are complaining about ? Yes, we dont make engines for it - but thats not an excuse to say no to local industry - just look at SAAB Gripen- it has less indegenous content than the LCA but Sweden isnt billing it as some sort of foreign frankenstien ?!

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1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

i dont know what u said. 

Why does it matter if its a PSU or private ? cost of manufacturing is cost of manufacturing and unless you do America-style 2000+ humongous order, the cost of the birds are big- it takes several billions of dollars to set up the infra to build it. This is why the Rafale costs us- as well as the French - nearly twice as much as it costs the Americans to make the F-35. 

 

I dont get what you are complaining about ? Yes, we dont make engines for it - but thats not an excuse to say no to local industry - just look at SAAB Gripen- it has less indegenous content than the LCA but Sweden isnt billing it as some sort of foreign frankenstien ?!


nm, it is like economics of 2 subsidiaries of the same company. We bill our parent company for some orders, even though it’s all the same company 

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50 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:


nm, it is like economics of 2 subsidiaries of the same company. We bill our parent company for some orders, even though it’s all the same company 

I am still not following because i am not an economic type of a guy. Your complaint is about the sticker price ?Why it is so expensive ?

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7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

ok now i am completely lost. 

You are upset that the indian government is buying planes with tax money ? how else are they supposed to buy it ?


logically they are purchasing from themselves, both are government owned, Anyway, good for IAF HAL politics. It could be that IAF or middlemen had received kickbacks from foreign companies and were shafting HAL, this is a landmark deal. Kudos to HAL and IAF :isalute:

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11 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:


logically they are purchasing from themselves, both are government owned, Anyway, good for IAF HAL politics. It could be that IAF or middlemen had received kickbacks from foreign companies and were shafting HAL, this is a landmark deal. Kudos to HAL and IAF :isalute:

yea but a goverment company still has to pay its materials cost, infa cost and staff cost.

 

Things cost way more in India because our ecosystem isnt fully developed yet AND we dont have bulk ordering yet. 

Look at the Rafale vs F-35. F-35 is a much more sophisticated bird. Its flyaway, no weapons cost is 75 million dollars. For the Rafale its 120 million even for the French. Why ?

Because you STILL need to invest like 4-5 billion in factories and production lines for the base production.  When you order just 200 birds like France did, it effectively makes the sticker price " whatever it costs in labour + materials  PLUS 25 million dollars in infra setup cost". When you order 2000 birds like USAF does, it makes it "whatever it costs in labour + materials PLUS 2.5 million in infra cost".

 

This is simplified but more or less is the main reason why French maal costs way more than American maal and why its more expensive to make Su-30MKIs in India than make it in Russia.

 

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3 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

^^ I get it, it is not like buying watches

As per the IAF or IN angle that people whine about - yes its true. They dont really want HAL or L&T stuff. Why ? Because they are the military. Their job is first and foremost to defend the nation AND keep their troops safe. Their job isn't to promote defence industry or see who gets what funding, whether this helps Indian economy or US economy. 


In this respect, the IAF, IN, IA have all been consistent - they want foreign maal because foreign maal is tried, tested, has a lot more development cycle put into it and they see it as ' why should i take a less proven, potentially inferior plane/tank/ship to risk my troops lives in to defend the country ? Give me the best damn thing money can buy'.

 

Which the are completely justified to do - i would do the same. Imagine if i am a IAF marshall - why the fook will i not want the F-22 ? Its better, it keeps my pilots - who are millions of dollars investments - safer and does the job better. Am i here to make sure we bomb our enemies successfully and dont lose a plane doing so or am i here to make sure desi industry gets off the ground and running ??

 

The job of convincing the military of what to buy and what it is getting, is that of the government's. Its THEIR job to balance military needs, optimal scenario of what meets military needs while not being the best and at the same time promote local defence sector.

 

And that is a job BJP has painstakingly undertaken and fought with all three branches of the military tooth and nail. And the military has fought back - obviously if i am accustomed to getting my imported ferarri, i am not going to be happy if you keep trying to shove a honda down my throat. But progress has been made and in the last 2-3 years the top brass of IAF, IN and IA have all been convinced that we have to take our local maal, even if its inferior to foreign maal, if we plan on being independent militarily.

 

And just like China underwent and is still undergoing - new local maal will go through growing pains and it will be a painstaking process to get it up to elite quality, but the risk overall is worth it. 

 

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