zen Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) Strategically, I like to support Israel. However, there are certain aspects of Israeli settlement in Occupied Palestine, which I am not sure that I can support. To give a background to those who are not aware of the issue: After the 6 day war, Israel annexed various parts of Palestine including East Jerusalem. Over the years, Israeli have moved into these territories. There are four aspects to this: a) create a new settlement from ground up, b) purchase properties from Palestinians, c) reclaim an old property to which you have the title too, and d) evacuate Palestinians from their homes, living there maybe for generations, to settle Israelis I am not ok with "d", which may be against the international law as well ... the rules are such that if a Palestinian builds a wall for example around his house without authorization, he/she could lose her home. As I said, I like to support Israel at a high level but it does not mean that action of every Israeli citizen is acceptable. Israeli should protect Palestinians, who are living in their homes since ages, from rogue Israeli settlers. Ppl like to support Israel, the country, for what it is fighting for, however this is another side of the story. Edited June 24, 2021 by zen sarcastic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted June 24, 2021 Author Share Posted June 24, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 9 Author Share Posted November 9 A recap: ^ I hope that certain areas in the subcon do not turn into such a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranvir Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 What about the Yazidis and Kurds? 377,000 people have been killed in the Yemen war. My grandad had to escape Pakistan in 1946, he didn't cry about it for the rest of his life. The best thing is to have a proper partition in Israel/Palestine and let the Palestinians have their state. Israel left Gaza in 2005 and left them to their own devices but that wasn't enough for them. Why is it a crowded place? Because they reproduce like rabbits. Egypt could easily open their border for their 'brothers' but they don't want them. The Palestinians have a bad reputation in the middle east. In Jordan they tried to overthrow the monarchy and used to hold people at gunpoint to force them to hand over money for their cause. This lead the Jordanians to ask help from the Pakistani army to kill 25,000 Palestinians. Kuwait expelled 287,000 Palestinians as they supported Saddam Husseun's invasion. Gazans are Egyptians and West Bank people are Jordanians. No one knows who is native to this land. mishra and G_B_ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 On 6/24/2021 at 1:30 AM, zen said: Strategically, I like to support Israel. However, there are certain aspects of Israeli settlement in Occupied Palestine, which I am not sure that I can support. To give a background to those who are not aware of the issue: After the 6 day war, Israel annexed various parts of Palestine including East Jerusalem. Over the years, Israeli have moved into these territories. There are four aspects to this: a) create a new settlement from ground up, b) purchase properties from Palestinians, c) reclaim an old property to which you have the title too, and d) evacuate Palestinians from their homes, living there maybe for generations, to settle Israelis I am not ok with "d", which may be against the international law as well ... the rules are such that if a Palestinian builds a wall for example around his house without authorization, he/she could lose her home. As I said, I like to support Israel at a high level but it does not mean that action of every Israeli citizen is acceptable. Israeli should protect Palestinians, who are living in their homes since ages, from rogue Israeli settlers. Ppl like to support Israel, the country, for what it is fighting for, however this is another side of the story. How many Jews live in Gaza or can walk into Gaza. None because they will kill them. So Why should Israelis protect them? Both cant live together. Take money and Get out to Palestine Ranvir 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 12 hours ago, Ranvir said: What about the Yazidis and Kurds? 377,000 people have been killed in the Yemen war. My grandad had to escape Pakistan in 1946, he didn't cry about it for the rest of his life. The best thing is to have a proper partition in Israel/Palestine and let the Palestinians have their state. Israel left Gaza in 2005 and left them to their own devices but that wasn't enough for them. Why is it a crowded place? Because they reproduce like rabbits. Egypt could easily open their border for their 'brothers' but they don't want them. The Palestinians have a bad reputation in the middle east. In Jordan they tried to overthrow the monarchy and used to hold people at gunpoint to force them to hand over money for their cause. This lead the Jordanians to ask help from the Pakistani army to kill 25,000 Palestinians. Kuwait expelled 287,000 Palestinians as they supported Saddam Husseun's invasion. Gazans are Egyptians and West Bank people are Jordanians. No one knows who is native to this land. Exactly. Palestinians living in Israel should move into Palestine. Any Jews living in Palestine should move into Israel. if they have already moved, Either side should pay the worth of their asset left behind. No other solution is feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 10 Author Share Posted November 10 6 minutes ago, mishra said: How many Jews live in Gaza or can walk into Gaza. None because they will kill them. So Why should Israelis protect them? Both cant live together. Take money and Get out to Palestine “Whataboutism” At the moment, Palestine consists of Gaza and West Bank. Gaza is more or less a refugee colony which Israel abandoned, dismantling its settlements. It is the smaller area of Palestine. The area in the West Bank is “occupied Palestine” and seen as a microcosm of the Israel-Palestine conflict. Palestinians live in various governing structures in Israel: Vicks57 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 10 Author Share Posted November 10 Some folks judge Palestinians based on the relatively small area of the Gaza “strip”, which is more or less a refugee colony. In the West Bank, including Jerusalem, Palestinians are involved in business too: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 (edited) 1 hour ago, zen said: “Whataboutism” At the moment, Palestine consists of Gaza and West Bank. Gaza is more or less a refugee colony which Israel abandoned, dismantling its settlements. It is the smaller area of Palestine. The area in the West Bank is “occupied Palestine” and seen as a microcosm of the Israel-Palestine conflict. Palestinians live in various governing structures in Israel: Is this another of your RPT logic. Palestinian live in Israel, Palestinian from Gaza and other areas also come into Israel to work daily and return back. After october attack, Israel has started replacing the daily migrant Palestinian who work in Israel by Indians Edited November 10 by mishra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 10 Author Share Posted November 10 (edited) 12 minutes ago, mishra said: Is this another of your RPT logic. Palestinian live in Israel, Palestinian from Gaza and other areas also come into Israel to work daily and return back. After october attack, Israel has started replacing the Palestinian who work in Israel by Indians As the title suggests, the discussion is on the West Bank! The Gaza Strip is approx. the size of two Washington DC if I recall correctly. It is not the whole Palestine and neither can every Palestinian live in such a small area. Many Israelis have written against Israeli policies of discrimination too: Palestinians currently live in four conclaves: a) The Greater Jerusalem Area, which is supposed to be a “no-state” b) West Bank c) Gaza, a strip the size of two Washington DC iirc (More or less a refugee colony) d) Rest of Israel It is as if what Nazis did to Jews, Jews are beginning to do that to the Palestinians PS read the OP to understand what is being discussed. Btw, what is wrong with RPT? … People have begin to use it, along with WPT! Edited November 10 by zen Vicks57 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 4 minutes ago, zen said: As the title suggests, the discussion is on the West Bank! The Gaza Strip is approx. the size of two Washington DC if I recall correctly. It is not the whole Palestine and neither can every Palestinian live in such a small area. Many Israelis have written against Israeli policies of discrimination too. Palestinians currently live in four conclaves: a) The Greater Jerusalem Area, which is supposed to be a “no-state” b) West Bank c) Gaza, a strip the size of two Washington DC iirc (More or less a refugee colony) d) Rest of Israel It is as if what Nazis did to Jews, Jews are beginning to do that to the Palestinians PS read the OP to understand what is being discussed. There is Golan Heights, There is 30 kms inside breadth of Lebnon on israel lebnon Border. I have done my research. Jerusalem and Golan heights becomes Israeli as soon as Trump got elected. However the real issue is Palestinian/Arab/Muslim hate towards Jews. That hate is to such a level that they will rape a 5 year old girl publicly and crowd will either join or chant the act if they realise that 5 year old is Jewish Israeli. Hence, I will never ever and can never ever side /support such beastly communty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 10 Author Share Posted November 10 1 minute ago, mishra said: There is Golan Heights, There is 30 kms inside breadth of Lebnon on israel lebnon Border. I have done my research. Jerusalem and Golan heights becomes Israeli as soon as Trump got elected. However the real issue is Palestinian/Arab/Muslim hate towards Jews. That hate is to such a level that they will rape a 5 year old girl publicly and crowd will either join or chant the act if they realise that 5 year old is Jewish Israeli. Hence, I will never ever and can never ever side /support such beastly communty Israeli-Palestinian issue is not decided based on what Trump thinks. It has been a pending issue since a long time for whatever reasons but need a practical and fair solution. Yes, one cannot support such atrocities but you cannot judge the whole community based on that. As I said in the OP, while I support Israel strategically, I cannot support whatever it does. Israel itself is said to have stripped Palestinian women, raped and killed them ti drive the people out. We cannot support such. Even in India, people have resorted to such during communal riots. Let’s not forget the sufferings of many during the partition. Sad events. Let’s not forgot how Hindus are suffering in BD. We have to speak out against the wrongs (no matter from which side), and not develop a majority mentality where what the majority (or powerful) do is acceptable. Palestinian culture has been battered by the war and oppression since the 1940s. Al-Nakba: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 (edited) 33 minutes ago, zen said: Israeli-Palestinian issue is not decided based on what Trump thinks. It has been a pending issue since a long time for whatever reasons but need a practical and fair solution. Yes, one cannot support such atrocities but you cannot judge the whole community based on that. As I said in the OP, while I support Israel strategically, I cannot support whatever it does. Israel itself is said to have stripped Palestinian women, raped and killed them ti drive the people out. We cannot support such. Even in India, people have resorted to such during communal riots. Let’s not forget the sufferings of many during the partition. Sad events. Let’s not forgot how Hindus are suffering in BD. We have to speak out against the wrongs (no matter from which side), and not develop a majority mentality where what the majority (or powerful) do is acceptable. Palestinian culture has been battered by the war and oppression since the 1940s. Al-Nakba: Aljazeera should also make a documentary of times when Sahih Muslim 2167a said "Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it." Point is, It 2024. And unless Palestinian turn humane themselves, They can not expect different treatment even from Humane people. You reap what you sow PS: I have said this many times. Onus is on Muslim world to proove "atleast one time in Human History" that they can coexist with other religion as so far, they have simply eliminated other religions whenever they are in Power. Edited November 10 by mishra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 10 Author Share Posted November 10 (edited) 20 minutes ago, mishra said: Aljazeera should also make a documentary of times when Sahih Muslim 2167a said "Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it." Point is, It 2024. And unless Palestinian turn humane themselves, They can not expect different treatment even from Humane people. You reap what you sow PS: I have said this many times. Onus is on Muslim world to proove "atleast one time in Human History" that they can coexist with other religion as so far, they have simply eliminated other religions whenever they are in Power. In Palestine, the solution is not necessarily about co-existing as the Al-Nakba shows, but a two state solution. Much like in BD, Hindus deserve an autonomy too. While there are haters and extremists in both groups, there are “nice” people too: We, esp. neutrals, need to encourage peace and discourage discrimination (from any side). Edited November 10 by zen Vicks57 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 10 Author Share Posted November 10 Below is a video that I watched years ago when I was a lot into geopolitics: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 10 Author Share Posted November 10 (edited) Gaza explained below: Edited November 10 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 (edited) 19 hours ago, zen said: In Palestine, the solution is not necessarily about co-existing as the Al-Nakba shows, but a two state solution. Much like in BD, Hindus deserve an autonomy too. While there are haters and extremists in both groups, there are “nice” people t We, esp. neutrals, need to encourage peace and discourage discrimination (from any side). Didnt clicked others but Thought Ted Talks will be thought provoking. Based on experience everyone will say that Palestinian is lieing. It all Boils down to my earlier position. "Onus is on Islam to proove that they can coexist" Its easy to talk about humanity ethics blah blah blah when you are weak. Because thats your only defense. How you act/react when you are in position of Strength is true sense of character Edited November 11 by mishra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 11 Author Share Posted November 11 (edited) 58 minutes ago, mishra said: Didnt clicked others but Thought Ted Talks will be thought provoking. Based on experience everyone will say that Palestinian is lieing. It all Boils down to my earlier position. "Onus is on Islam to proove that they can coexist" Its easy to talk about humanity ethics blah blah blah when you are weak. Because thats your only defense. How you act/react when you are in position of Strength is true sense of character At the moment, it is Israel is that occupying the West Bank and turned Gaza into a refugee colony. Here the issue is of not co-existing but being oppressed in their own areas - West Bank and Gaza. It is not about asking Israel to vacate the rest the area assigned to it but moving out of the West Bank and Gaza (where it controls it from the outside, ensuring that it remains a refugee colony). I am not sure that you understand the issue. It appears to be the standard Hindu v Muslim in India stand turned into Jews v Muslim in the ME. The area needs a practical and fair solution by looking ahead. People come and go, the world keeps moving. Edited November 11 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 11 Author Share Posted November 11 To give a rough example: In 1947, * Ind’s population was around 350M. * British population was roughly around 125K. Now say that instead of 125K, Britain began to settle its people in India and its population was 5M. At the time of partition, 1/3rd to 1/2 of the land is allotted to the British and the rest for the 350M people. The 350M try to fight but the British beat them and occupy more area, leaving those 350M in a more or less oppressed state. Unfortunately, in India such things have happened where outsiders (the Mughals) for example have come and set up their kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted November 11 Author Share Posted November 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts