How many current players would make it to our All-time Indian Test XI?

[vvvslaxman]

 I respect spin quarters. Apart from chandra others didn't exactly do well other than against  the three sides that were weak against spin. England/OZ/NZ.  Chandra was good against Windies too. Even against Pakistan he as not that bad. Around 45 or something. Others got their clock cleaned by Zaheer Abbas and Miandad. They didn't exactly play against top flight teams against spin. West Indies was in their early phases. Windies hit the peak in the 80s. By the time everyone retired except Venkat ragavan. He was thrashed both by West Indies later a B team pakistan in India.  Chandra was  unique bowler. He is always going to threaten batsman in any era  against any player due to his quick arm action due to his polio condition.  I won't say the same about Bedi/Prasanna/Venkatragavan floaty spinners.  Kapil dev's entry coincided with that. SENA in 1970 is not the same SENA in 1980 or 1990 or 2000 or 2010. It varies. The MCG pitch where Kapil took 5 for 19 ball was rolling. Karsan gavri picked a couple of wickets with spin bowling. Even Ravi bot picked 3 wickets in 4 balls on his debut in NZ i think. They were susceptible against spin.

Edited January 2, 2022 by vvvslaxman

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Ashwin plays all games at home, if his excuse about injury between 2017-2020 (4 years ) is true then why did he not sit out? There's also no filter to include one player & exclude another from cricinfo IIRC, so you'll have to do the legwork on that.

 

You can count the number of series in which Jadeja played 2 or more tests at home. Against big teams - S.E.N.A. he's been consistently the biggest difference between the sides!

 

So he should be winning man of the series? more than once atleast?

[R!TTER]

He deserved in in two series, Eng vs 2016 was fair game IMO. I don't count the minnows, that includes SA post 2018 in India. So make of that what you will, Jadeja had he played all the games that Ashwin has played at home would have similar numbers in bowling & much better numbers in batting - that's the bottom line. Now you can decide who deserves more MoS according to your interpretation of the numbers.

Edited January 2, 2022 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

He deserved in in two series, Eng vs 2016 was fair game IMO. I don't count the minnows, that includes SA post 2018 in India. So make of that what you will, Jadeja had he played all the games that Ashwin has played at home would have similar numbers in bowling & much better numbers in batting - that's the bottom line. Now you can decide who deserves more MoS according to your interpretation of the numbers.

 

"similar" means he should be winning.  For the record

 

2016

 

Jadeja 5 tests 224 runs 37.33 avge 26 wickets@25.84

Ashwin 5 tests 306 runs 43.71 avge 28 wickets@30.25

 

Niether of them won the man of the series. Kohli due to two man of the match performances was given man of the series. 

 

Jaddu win a man of the match.  KOhli 2. Moeen 1. Last one was Karun Nair.  Ashwin took 12 wickets still award went to Karun Nair on a placid surface. Fair enough. But let us not pretend Ashwin completely went awol.  Jaddu due to his impressive ER averaged better

[vvvslaxman]

14 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

He deserved in in two series, Eng vs 2016 was fair game IMO. I don't count the minnows, that includes SA post 2018 in India. So make of that what you will, Jadeja had he played all the games that Ashwin has played at home would have similar numbers in bowling & much better numbers in batting - that's the bottom line. Now you can decide who deserves more MoS according to your interpretation of the numbers.

 

Ashwin has played 15 tests more at home and took 138 wickets more. With 17  five wicket haul more and 6 tenfer more. Minnow filter. flat filter, sena filter . We can use some filters for others as well. 

[Dery]

Kohli, Pujara, Pant, Bumrah, Shami, Ashwin & Jadeja are strong contenders 

[vvvslaxman]

THat is it about Ashwin. No more response for Ashwin posts. It is not like people are going to change opinion. It is  a fictional team anyway. In about 10 years from now we will know. Who knows we might find another gem.

[Jay]

Let's see if ashwin can prove himself vs south africa and England next year. Them we will put him above kumble etc. 

Skill wise wrist spinner will always be better than a finger spinner. 

 

Ash is an ATG but yes he needs to prove himself in SEN. He did well in australia so that's done now. 

 

Lol at people overeating 2000 era Australia in an era without drs, unbiased umpiring and flat decks. 

 

It's difficult difficult compare eras. Rules change ever so often. 

 

Put kumble in current team and he would average under 25 easily alongside out GOAT pace attack which is a top 5 AtG level attack. Same can be said about chandrasekar, prasanna etc. 

 

People **** on jadeja but he is a match winner. Many times when ashwin struggled vs Aussies in 2016 for example, it was juddu who ran riot. Stop overrating sena performances ffs. 

 

Warne is a cannon fodder them. He averaged trash figures in India. Is he not a goat spinner? Lel.

 

Lyon averages the same  in Australia, india and England. So it's not that *ing easy to excel even at home In India. Depends on pitches. There are times where flat desks are used in India. It's hard to analyse each and every pitch and condition to arrive at a conclusion. 

 

India quite often prepares flatter pitches to last 5 days. 

 

Those So called great Aussie players dint play in an era with drs, unbiased umpiring and restrictions with regards to OOT sledging. They could have fared just as bad as modern players. Let's not forget impact of t20. 

[Jay]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

THat is it about Ashwin. No more response for Ashwin posts. It is not like people are going to change opinion. It is  a fictional team anyway. In about 10 years from now we will know. Who knows we might find another gem.

Kumble and Sachin fan -  hulla Bulla....2000 era best of the best. No drs. Best era. Best players. Ash will average 30 in that era. 

 

Ash fans - kumble did f all vs good sides on turners. Drs won't affect bowling averages etc

 

Bottom line is, we can't compare eras. Pure conjuncture.

[R!TTER]

5 minutes ago, Jay said:

Let's see if ashwin can prove himself vs south africa and England next year.

SA is minnow level currently, Eng is no better with their sh!t batting. I guess the only tough tours he needs to do well on is NZ & Oz. But I doubt he'll last till then. Jadeja has one more opportunity to do better in NZ, SA & Eng, he's already one of the best players in Oz ever - not lost any games he's played in 

[Jay]

1 minute ago, R!TTER said:

SA is minnow level currently, Eng is no better with their sh!t batting. I guess the only tough tours he needs to do well on is NZ & Oz. But I doubt he'll last till then. Jadeja has one more opportunity to do better in NZ, SA & Eng, he's already one of the best players in Oz ever - not lost any games he's played in 

Sa is not minnow level in SA. Their bowling is as good as ever. Batting is still decent In s.a

 

England are still a good side at home.

 

Most eras had only 4 or 5 good to great teams with some in transition at different stages. 

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, Jay said:

Kumble and Sachin fan -  hulla Bulla....2000 era best of the best. No drs. Best era. Best players. Ash will average 30 in that era. 

 

Ash fans - kumble did f all vs good sides on turners. Drs won't affect bowling averages etc

 

Bottom line is, we can't compare eras. Pure conjuncture.

 

Agreed. 

[R!TTER]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

Sa is not minnow level in SA. Their bowling is as good as ever. Batting is still decent In s.a

 

England are still a good side at home.

 

Most eras had only 4 or 5 good to great teams with some in transition at different stages. 

That's not remotely true, they've lost what 6(5?) games vs SL, Eng & India including a whitewash by SL in 2019 -

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team South Africa

Home or away home venue

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2019

Grouped by opposition team

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Opposition	Players	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Pakistan	12	2019-2019	2	37	6	1002	129	32.32	1763	56.83	2	5	3	153	4
v Sri Lanka	16	2019-2021	4	68	8	1737	199	28.95	2872	60.48	2	11	10	229	4
v England	15	2019-2020	4	88	8	1852	98	23.15	4175	44.35	0	10	6	248	15
v India	11	2021-2021	1	22	2	370	77	18.50	795	46.54	0	2	2	56	2

[Jay]

1 minute ago, R!TTER said:

That's not remotely true, they've lost what 6(5?) games vs SL, Eng & India including a whitewash by SL in 2019 -

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team South Africa

Home or away home venue

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2019

Grouped by opposition team

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 4 of 4

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Opposition	Players	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Pakistan	12	2019-2019	2	37	6	1002	129	32.32	1763	56.83	2	5	3	153	4
v Sri Lanka	16	2019-2021	4	68	8	1737	199	28.95	2872	60.48	2	11	10	229	4
v England	15	2019-2020	4	88	8	1852	98	23.15	4175	44.35	0	10	6	248	15
v India	11	2021-2021	1	22	2	370	77	18.50	795	46.54	0	2	2	56	2

They always lost to England tbh. Even smith's team lost in 07 iirc. They drew post 2010 as well. 

 

Lanka was an aberration. They did lose a year later. They got demolished 2 0 on sa

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, sarchasm said:

 

Not the best way to judge a bowler who had pretty much ZERO support from other end not just in foreign conditions but also at home because in 80s India's spin stocks were pretty much zero.

 

We can have Malcolm Marshall team up with Binnies and Sandhus and maninders and bowl year in and year out for a decade. With over half of his matches on unresponsive subcontinental pitches. I am not sure Marshall would come out with an average any better than Kapil.

 

Same for Srinath, although he luckily had some support at home in the form of Kumble. And it shows in his numbers in India.

 

Srinath and Kapil consistently bowled more balls per innings than most of the current Indian quicks with the dual task of stemming the run flow and taking wickets. It's just insane to compare them with Shamis and Bumrahs of today who get to excel as a  bowling group.

 

 

I am NOT comparing anyone with anyone here BUT picking a team which will actually win me most matches. ( keeping in mind the overall team composition )

 

I have read this reasoning ad nauseam that Kapil had no support etc. etc.  BUT having actually watched Kapil bowl in almost ever match from 1983 to 1994 ... he was NOT that great a bowler from 1984 onwards due to knee issues probably. He COULD NOT  bowl like he did during 1979 to 1983. I have watched him in only one of those years I.e 1983. The fall in quality was perceptible after that. Even his famous outswing did not happen often enough.  Not necessarily his fault as managing injuries was less developed then. But it was as it was. 

 

Many people have a lot of emotions linked to Kapil Dev as he won us the first World Cup. But just as a bowler for test matches, he was just about above average for the last two thirds of his career considering just his bowling quality.

 

He would be an automatic pick in any ODI team as he was very economical as a bowler and his high SR stroke play would add a lot of value. 

 

Kapil, as a lower-middle order white ball batsman, was of the highest quality and added most value to the team among his different facets.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by express bowling

[R!TTER]

Ok, SL was an aberration but those batting numbers are hardly anything but minnow level. And if that's not it how'd you explain their numbers going forward? Heck QDK is also gone now.

[Jay]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Ok, SL was an aberration but those batting numbers are hardly anything but minnow level. And if that's not it how'd you explain their numbers going forward? Heck QDK is also gone now.

You want to see our batting numbers lol with trimurti? Hehe. Vvs posted some stat which showed how we are probably 5 th or 6th in batting. Minnow level.

 

Bowling wins you games more often than batting. As in a great or very good bowling attack with reasonably decent batsmen would beat a team with great God tier batsmen and average bowlers anyday. 

 

How did s.africa even post abd still beat Aussies away? Bowling. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Jay

[R!TTER]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

How did s.africa even post abd still beat Aussies away? Bowling. 

They didn't, ABD was MoS in 2018 IIRC, now he didn't feature in the squad in 2016 but you could argue that Oz squad was also in transition.

[Jay]

4 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

They didn't, ABD was MoS in 2018 IIRC, now he didn't feature in the squad in 2016 but you could argue that Oz squad was also in transition.

Yes sorry that's what I meant. Depends on the team. You need to factor in transition period etc. Great bowling wins you more games than great batting. No doubt about it in sena. 

 

In Asia, it could be different however even there you would need great spinners if it's turners. 

 

Would not surprise me one bit if India lose the next game vs s.africa cause pitches here are toss dependent. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Jay

[R!TTER]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Ashwin took 12 wickets still award went to Karun Nair on a placid surface

What game are you talking of? Jadeja took 10 there not Ashwin! That's why I rate Jadeja much higher, because of his ability to take wickets on dead surfaces, & I'm not going to hash over the instances again because I've listed them tens of times on ICF