Babar Azam, Stats Padder or Real Deal ?

[Vijy]

25 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Too early when it comes to test cricket, needs 2-3 daddy seasons to come in the reckoning, must also score multiple 100s in foreign conditions like Smith, Root, Kohli. Atm I think he has only 1 SENA 100, Kohli has 11 IIRC. 

 

Ultimately test cricket decides the ATG status of any player, that's why modern day cricketers like Steyn/Kallis/Cook/YK are considered ATGs while WC heroes and white ball greats like Bevan, Klusener, Yuvi, Symonds, Bracken, Brett Lee are forgotten figures in the grand scheme of things. 

All modern white ball stats must be taken with a pinch bucket of salt, doesn't matter whether Pakistani or Indian cricketers. There is a reason why most sane Indian fans don't rate Kohli the ODI batsman higher than Sachin.....despite his impressive numbers. 

 

Do you think Sachin, Lara, Anwar had the luxury of facing Aus/RSA attacks without McWarne, Donald, Pollock back in the day? No, teams never experimented this much in the pre-T20 age because of a multitude of reasons. I can't recognize half the players from Aus, RSA, Eng in modern white ball bilaterals. 

Zaheer Abbas will always be the GOAT ODI batsman for Pak, for the things he achieved in the 70s and early 80s. Only ODI batsman from that era whose comparison with King Viv wouldn't evoke laughter. 

Then you have Miandad, Anwar, Inzi, heck even Yousuf would have beastly numbers in this day and age. 

Yes, Zaheer was amazing. he was built for ODI cricket IMO. in the current era, I believe that he could average close to 60 since he was already averaging close to 50 (47 to be precise) then

[Nikola]

24 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Definitely, agree with that.

 

The likes of Babar don't even come near him. 

 

Viv

Kohli

Sachin

Abd

Ponting 

Dhoni

 

Babar is nowhere near them

 

In odis, if you are keeping kohli that high you cannot say babar is no where near him. It's not that babar doesn't have good innings in this format against quality bowling lineup. Alot will depend on how good he is in world cup next year. Consistency wise he is getting close to kohli in odis.

[Gollum]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Yes, Zaheer was amazing. he was built for ODI cricket IMO. in the current era, I believe that he could average close to 60 since he was already averaging close to 50 (47 to be precise) then

Yup, probably the most underrated ODI batsman, another one will be Dean Jones. 

 

Also kinda overrated in test cricket, massive HTB and was genuinely scared of pace/bounce. Vishy was comfortably better than him in test cricket, ignore the stats.......Vishy was way more clutch, definitely more courageous and had strong backfoot game. Abbas didn't have backfoot game. 

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Yup, probably the most underrated ODI batsman, another one will be Dean Jones. 

 

Also kinda overrated in test cricket, massive HTB and was genuinely scared of pace/bounce. Vishy was comfortably better than him in test cricket, ignore the stats.......Vishy was way more clutch, definitely more courageous and had strong backfoot game. Abbas didn't have backfoot game. 

Funny you mentioned Dean Jones. I wrote about him 5-7 posts earlier in a reply to someone else. Zaheer and Dean in my book are top 7 batters in ODIs.

 

Agree that Zaheer was overrated in Tests. he was merciless against spin, but had real issues vs pace and bounce. as you wrote, Vishy is better than him. But Mohinder was even better than Vishy - got done dirty by selectors time and again in his near-20-yr career. In '83, the kind of batting he pulled off against WI and Pak was the best sustained display of batting against hostile pace/swing (and umpires) by an Indian I've ever seen.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Vijy

[Gollum]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

Funny you mentioned Dean Jones. I wrote about him 4-5 posts earlier in a reply to someone else. Zaheer and Dean in my book are top 7 batters in ODIs.

 

Agree that Zaheer was overrated in Tests. he was merciless against spin, but had real issues vs pace and bounce. as you wrote, Vishy is better than him. But Mohinder was even better than Vishy - got done dirty by selectors time and again in his near-20-yr career. In '83, the kind of batting he pulled off against WI and Pak was the best sustained display of batting against hostile pace/swing (and umpires) by an Indian I've ever seen.

Mohinder had the greatest one year peak for any batsman in the history of the game. What he did in 1982-83 I am not sure batting of a higher level has been displayed in the history of the game, not even by Don Bradman. Kinda like Bobby Fischer of 1971, beat Taimanov and Larsen 6-0 each (former's titles were stripped off by Soviet authorities and he was banned from performing in concerts abroad, one of the greatest pianists of the 20th century for those unfamiliar with his fascinating career/life) and the master of defence Tigran Petrosian 6.5-2.5 in Buenos Aires....his level against Spassky in 1972 saw a significant drop!!!!!

 

But when you look at 3 years or 5/10/15 years graphs they won't be near the top, more pronounced in case of Jimmy. Fischer had his mental demons, Jimmy had his dad who forever was in bad terms with the board that cost his son his career dearly. Who knows if not for Lala, Jimmy wouldn't have had to make 18 odd comebacks to the national team and maybe he would have achieved his potential. Tragic to see that despite the 1982/83 exploits he couldn't catapult himself to the Viv, Sunny or Greg Chappell league.

[Vijy]

Just now, Gollum said:

Mohinder had the greatest one year peak for any batsman in the history of the game. What he did in 1982-83 I am not sure batting of a higher level has been displayed in the history of the game, not even by Don Bradman. Kinda like Bobby Fischer of 1971, beat Taimanov and Larsen 6-0 each (former's titles were stripped off by Soviet authorities and he was banned from performing in concerts abroad, one of the greatest pianists of the 20th century for those unfamiliar with his fascinating career/life) and the master of defence Tigran Petrosian 6.5-2.5 in Buenos Aires....his level against Spassky in 1972 saw a significant drop!!!!!

 

But when you look at 3 years or 5/10/15 years graphs they won't be near the top, more pronounced in case of Jimmy. Fischer had his mental demons, Jimmy had his dad who forever was in bad terms with the board that cost his son his career dearly. Who knows if not for Lala, Jimmy wouldn't have had to make 18 odd comebacks to the national team and maybe he would have achieved his potential. Tragic to see that despite the 1982/83 exploits he couldn't catapult himself to the Viv, Sunny or Greg Chappell league.

indeed, I used the phrase "by an Indian" just to be on the safe side. However, it was just mind boggling by any standard. apt comparison with bobby fischer, btw.

 

Although I don't see him surpassing Viv, I do think he could have been a more "impactful" player than Sunny or the two Chappells, even with a sub-50 avg had he received a consistent run and full backing.

[Adamant]

36 minutes ago, Nikola said:

 

In odis, if you are keeping kohli that high you cannot say babar is no where near him. It's not that babar doesn't have good innings in this format against quality bowling lineup. Alot will depend on how good he is in world cup next year. Consistency wise he is getting close to kohli in odis.

Babar hasn't played innings like kohli did, he can't accelerate like how Kohli did at his peak also he isn't a ggreat chaser and finisher like him.
Kohli's 183 vs Pak, 133 vs Sl, 50 ball hundred vs Aus are all above Babar's ability.

[Majestic]

Anyone who is averaging close to 60, has performed in World Cups, overall average removing minnows is still excellent, scoring at a rate close to 90 or more, is a damn excellent batsman. Whether he can maintain it or not, that will decide whether he can achieve the level of greatness that is required in ODIs and T20s format.

[Majestic]

3 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Babar hasn't played innings like kohli did, he can't accelerate like how Kohli did at his peak also he isn't a ggreat chaser and finisher like him.
Kohli's 183 vs Pak, 133 vs Sl, 50 ball hundred vs Aus are all above Babar's ability.

Kohli himself lacks the ability to switch gears the way Viv, Tendulkar,Lara, ABD and Rohit Sharma can. What works in Kohli's favour in ODIs is his run chasing ability, which is second to none. But in ODI World cups, Kohli ne avi tak hagga hi hai 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Majestic

[Adamant]

49 minutes ago, Vijy said:

You must not have seen much ODI cricket at all if you think Punter is in top 5. Have you even seen Dean Jones play? He was not just better than the overrated Punting (who is a bunting, i.e. all show) but also Hussey and arguably even Bevan. Also big LOL regarding Kohli at 2 and Tendu at 3; neither should be that high, although they both deserve to be in top 10.

 

As for Babar, yes, he is a stats padder but also the most consistent batter currently around. However, until he scores big in SENA and scores winning knocks, he will not climb into the echelons of the ATGs. currently, he can be termed "great" (with some caveats) but not ATG.

Michael hussey will be in my top 10 not Dean Jones, it isn't important to watch all the games to decide who the better batsman is. 
Dean Jones was a good consolidator , he did'nt have as good  an attacking game as Ponting and Ponting was equally consistent also great in WC's.

[Adamant]

Just now, Majestic said:

Kohli himself lacks the ability to switch gears the way Viv, Tendulkar,Lara, ABD and Rohit Sharma can. What works in Kohli's favour in ODIs is his run chasing ability. But in ODI World cups, Kohli ne avi tak hagga hi hai 

Show me the stats here, pure gibberish.
Lara, lol, He is not even is the same league as Kohli in ODIs.
Kohli has one of the best strike rates in the last few overs in both odis and t20s.

[Majestic]

11 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Show me the stats here, pure gibberish.
Lara, lol, He is not even is the same league as Kohli in ODIs.
Kohli has one of the best strike rates in the last few overs in both odis and t20s.

Tendulkar S/R 86 in 250-275 era.

Kohli S/R 92 in 330-360 era.

 

You go by era and then during SRT era, most strike rates were in range of 75-80. With Lara, I meant ability to switch gear not overall strike rate. Also Tendulkar is more aggressive vs spin than Kohli is while both are equally aggressive vs pace. So, overall Tendulkar was more aggressive than Kohli is clearly.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Majestic

[Vijy]

26 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Michael hussey will be in my top 10 not Dean Jones, it isn't important to watch all the games to decide who the better batsman is. 
Dean Jones was a good consolidator , he did'nt have as good  an attacking game as Ponting and Ponting was equally consistent also great in WC's.

as I wrote, you have not seen enough of dean jones, it is transparently obvious from your response.

 

your bunting had an SR of 80 mostly in the 00s and Deano had 72 SR (and higher avg) in the 80s-90s. moreover, this "great in WCs" metric has limited merit. if one just takes SR and WCs, then Gilly > Bunting.

 

like I wrote, you haven't seen much/any ODI cricket prior to 1990s otherwise you'd know that hussy possey is also less than dean jones

Edited June 12, 2022 by Vijy

[Vijy]

29 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Babar hasn't played innings like kohli did, he can't accelerate like how Kohli did at his peak also he isn't a ggreat chaser and finisher like him.
Kohli's 183 vs Pak, 133 vs Sl, 50 ball hundred vs Aus are all above Babar's ability.

how do you know this? can you guarantee that he will never make a 50-ball 100 vs Oz, for example?

[Majestic]

My top 10 in ODIs :-

 

1. Viv Richards

2. Sachin Tendulkar

3. AB de Villiers

4. Virat Kohli

5. Ricky Ponting

6. MS Dhoni

7-10 in any order - Adam Gilchrist, Sanath Jayasuriya, Rohit Sharma, Zaheer Abbas and Brian Lara.

[Vijy]

Just now, Majestic said:

My top 10 in ODIs :-

 

1. Viv Richards

2. Sachin Tendulkar

3. AB de Villiers

4. Virat Kohli

5. Ricky Ponting

6. MS Dhoni

7-10 in any order - Adam Gilchrist, Sanath Jayasuriya, Rohit Sharma, Zaheer Abbas and Brian Lara.

don't think Sacchu, ABD, Bunting (Ponting) should be that high up, especially Ponting. people attach too much importance to his so-called "great" WC record and esp. the 2003 knock vs Ind.

[Jay]

hahaha kohli top 5. top 10? barely. he fails in KO games. weak mentally. mental midgets should never be in top 5. not even top 10 imo but ok i will give him that cause he has won a WC and champions trophy. 

kohli is ahead of babar by a country mile. not even close. I dont even like kohli at all btw as most would know. 

 

these are players better than kohli.

 

vivian

abd most complete player ever

ricky iyer ponting

adam gaikwad gilly

kumara srikanth sangakarra

greenridge

then varoot ka kohli

jayasuriya

shewuuu

ro ro

 

 

25 gobar bakhreed azam

[Jay]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

don't think Sacchu, ABD, Bunting (Ponting) should be that high up, especially Ponting. people attach too much importance to his so-called "great" WC record and esp. the 2003 knock vs Ind.

why is that? i am surprised you dont rate bunting. honestly i think he is overrated in tests. he got lucky he dint have to play his own attack and he sucked ass in india and one more place which i cant recall. however, in odi he was prolific and clutch in key games. 

[Vijy]

Just now, Jay said:

hahaha kohli top 5. top 10? barely. he fails in KO games. weak mentally. mental midgets should never be in top 5. not even top 10 imo but ok i will give him that cause he has won a WC and champions trophy. 

kohli is ahead of babar by a country mile. not even close. I dont even like kohli at all btw as most would know. 

 

these are players better than kohli.

 

vivian

abd most complete player ever

ricky iyer ponting

adam gaikwad gilly

kumara srikanth sangakarra

greenridge

then varoot ka kohli

jayasuriya

shewuuu

ro ro

 

 

25 gobar bakhreed azam

Sanga wasn't that good. he had 1 purple WC, and improved greatly as ODI bat only in last 2-3 years of his career. jayasuria and pappu de silva were both better SL ODI bats than him.

 

Greenidge was rather tuk-tuk in ODIs interestingly, having seen him bat often. In fact, clive lloyd was arguably WI's second best ODI bat of that period, behind King Vivian, the First of His Name.

 

ABD was a certified choker (best example - 2011 WC), also a certified genius in terms of his skills.

[Vijy]

Just now, Jay said:

why is that? i am surprised you dont rate bunting. honestly i think he is overrated in tests. he got lucky he dint have to play his own attack and he sucked ass in india and one more place which i cant recall. however, in odi he was prolific and clutch in key games. 

Bunting is overrated in both Tests and ODIs, but more so in the latter. he scored at 40 avg at 80 SR - these are quite mediocre figures. more than that, he was playing an "easy" middle order role while the real dashing was done by Gilly at top and Symmo down the order. Heck, even Martyn was nearly as good as him.

 

Yes, he played a super-clutch innings against Ind in '03 WC and I think that's why people overrate him. and yes, his WC record is good. but he had issues with spin and also with raising tempo beyond a certain threshold.