Indian pace bowling all rounders

[Majestic]

3 hours ago, Vijy said:

damien martyn (who often played at 5) has an avg of 2 less than samaraweera. I know which of the two I would rather select

Or Stokes has an avg of 3 less than Shakib with bat. But I will chose Stokes always in terms of batting.

 

I didn't said Imran is as good a batsman as his batting average but the way he improved his batting with time over his career is itself inspirational and hence definitely an all time great all rounder.

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

Or Stokes has an avg of 3 less than Shakib with bat. But I will chose Stokes always in terms of batting.

 

I didn't said Imran is as good a batsman as his batting average but the way he improved his batting with time over his career is itself inspirational and hence definitely an all time great all rounder.

good thing you didn't say it, because unlike most youngsters here, I saw him bat and he was pretty limited as a player. in terms of batting ability, it was clive rice > botham > kapil > imran > hadlee (ranking only the big 5 of that era). however, botham and kapil lacked discipline, which immy had.

 

On a diff note, one astonishing fact about SA is the sheer number of high quality ARs they produced from the 60s onward:

 

1. Eddie Barlow (gun opening bat, who could field very well, and was a useful bowler)

2. Trevor Goddard (very versatile player, who could open both batting and bowling)

3. Mike Proctor (the best bowling AR I have seen, more than Imran and Botham; didn't see Miller)

4. Clive Rice (top-tier batting AR, whose bowling was genuinely quick - kind of a proto-kallis)

5. Brian McMillan (gets overlooked for some reason: batting was almost as strong as specialist batters in the 90s; great slip fielder; and useful partnership breaker)

6. Jacques Kallis ('nuff said; best batting AR after Sir Garry)

7. Shaun Pollock (great opening bowler, and big underachiever with bat, who still avg > 30)

 

to this, one can also add in ODIs: Klusener; Hansie Cronje (very useful bowler in that format); Adrian Kuiper (should have played more matches in ODIs); nicky boje (not test quality, but good enough for ODIs)

 

moreover, Peter Pollock & Garth le Roux & Vernon Philander were almost ARs (didn't use full batting potential)

 

and then, there were sub-par ARs who were utility cricketers like derek crookes, pat symcox, etc

Edited July 16, 2023 by Vijy

[Majestic]

21 minutes ago, Vijy said:

good thing you didn't say it, because unlike most youngsters here, I saw him bat and he was pretty limited as a player. in terms of batting ability, it was clive rice > botham > kapil > imran > hadlee (ranking only the big 5 of that era). however, botham and kapil lacked discipline, which immy had.

 

On a diff note, one astonishing fact about SA is the sheer number of high quality ARs they produced from the 60s onward:

 

1. Eddie Barlow (gun opening bat, who could field very well, and was a useful bowler)

2. Trevor Goddard (very versatile player, who could open both batting and bowling)

3. Mike Proctor (the best bowling AR I have seen, more than Imran and Botham; didn't see Miller)

4. Clive Rice (top-tier batting AR, whose bowling was genuinely quick - kind of a proto-kallis)

5. Brian McMillan (gets overlooked for some reason: batting was almost as strong as specialist batters in the 90s; great slip fielder; and useful partnership breaker)

6. Jacques Kallis ('nuff said; best batting AR after Sir Garry)

7. Shaun Pollock (great opening bowler, and big underachiever with bat, who still avg > 30)

 

to this, one can also add in ODIs: Klusener; Hansie Cronje (very useful bowler in that format); Adrian Kuiper (should have played more matches in ODIs); nicky boje (not test quality, but good enough for ODIs)

 

moreover, Peter Pollock & Garth le Roux & Vernon Philander were almost ARs (didn't use full batting potential)

 

and then, there were sub-par ARs who were utility cricketers like derek crookes, pat symcox, etc

When careers are over, their performance matters, ability don't hold much value. You are rated for what you achieved, not what you could have achieved but didn't.

 

Imran despite limitation played a match winning knock in World Cup 1992 Final coming to bat at 3. Also, he was no tailender by any means. In tests, he ended up with 6 tons. His batting career has been similar to how it is going for Jadeja currently. Both of them have their stats inflated by not outs. Imran though is a much more inspirational figure, led with example and is arguably greatest Asian test cricketer of all-time.

 

SA obviously had a number of top all rounders in the previous millenium. But then none of them were able to win a World Cup for their country or any of their test team are rated as high as the Windies of 80s or Aussies of 00s. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Majestic

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

When careers are over, their performance matters, ability don't hold much value. You are rated for what you achieved, not what you could have achieved but didn't.

 

Imran despite limitation played a match winning knock in World Cup 1992 Final coming to bat at 3. Also, he was no tailender by any means. In tests, he ended up with 6 tons. His batting career has been similar to how it is going for Jadeja currently. Both of them have their stats inflated by not outs. Imran though is a much more inspirational figure, led with example and is arguably greatest Asian test cricketer of all-time.

 

SA obviously had a number of top all rounders in the previous millenium. But then none of them were able to win a World Cup for their country or any of their test team are rated as high as the Windies of 80s or Aussies of 00s. 

that is a fallacy. their 70s team was the equal of both.

 

coming to the main point, I would say that my order of bowling ARs is probably as follows: proctor, miller = imran, botham, others. if we consider only 1st half of botham's career, he would be no. 1 (but that is not fair, due to which I went with my above order). hence, it's not as though I am downplaying imran

[wazza]

3 hours ago, Vijy said:

that is a fallacy. their 70s team was the equal of both.

 

coming to the main point, I would say that my order of bowling ARs is probably as follows: proctor, miller = imran, botham, others. if we consider only 1st half of botham's career, he would be no. 1 (but that is not fair, due to which I went with my above order). hence, it's not as though I am downplaying imran

What allowed SA to produce ao many quality ARs? I feel it's the weather/conditions and pitches there. Bouncy nature allowing bowlers to develop and hone their bowling skills/technique. Good pitches encourage bowlers to play with higher intensity etc. 

 

 

[Vijy]

8 hours ago, wazza said:

What allowed SA to produce ao many quality ARs? I feel it's the weather/conditions and pitches there. Bouncy nature allowing bowlers to develop and hone their bowling skills/technique. Good pitches encourage bowlers to play with higher intensity etc. 

 

 

I think it comes from the fact that SA always produced multi-sports cricketers even from early 20th century, and ARs are essentially multi-skilled players within the same sport (cricket)

[putrevus]

On 7/14/2023 at 11:40 PM, Majestic said:

For all rounders with bowling as stronger suit, these filters don't matter. Imran has 6 hundreds in 88 tests and a match winning knock in ODIs batting at 3 in the World Cup Final 1992. It doesn't get any bigger occasion than that.

 

An average of 38 in a weaker suit is unheard of. Guys like Miller, Botham, Kapil, Cairns, Flintoff all averages lesser than him. I don't rate Imran as high as his batting average but this doesn't disqualify him from all rounder definition.

 

Greenidge vs Samarveera is a wrong comparison because former was an opener while latter was no.5. Samarveera has poor record in Ind, Aus, Eng which is why he can't be rated in elite league.

How is winning knock in odi finals.Pakistan won that match despite his innings.They won purely on basis of Wasim Akram's mastery.

 

It is like saying Kris Srikanth knock of 38 was some match winning knock in 1983 finals.

 

Avg if 38 is on basis on lot of not out, Avg for number 6 or 7  does not mater ,Avg of 38 or 31 does not make much difference. What makes difference is the quality of knock which number 6 plays.

 

When were thos so called 6 100s scored also is equally important.

 

Botham and Kapil while avgeraging less were 100 times batsmen Imran ever was in his career.

 

Sangakarra averages 57 while Sachin averages 51, who is better batsman.

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by putrevus

[Majestic]

56 minutes ago, putrevus said:

How is winning knock in odi finals.Pakistan won that match despite his innings.They won purely on basis of Wasim Akram's mastery.

 

Completely false. Imran scored 72 after the openers were gone for a single digit score. Cricket was different back then compared to now. You can't just look at strike rate and even then he maintained a strike rate better than a specialist batsman, Miandad who scored 58(98). Imran's knock was Gambhiresque.

 

59 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Avg if 38 is on basis on lot of not out, Avg for number 6 or 7  does not mater ,Avg of 38 or 31 does not make much difference. What makes difference is the quality of knock which number 6 plays.

 

When were thos so called 6 100s scored also is equally important.

 

Botham and Kapil while avgeraging less were 100 times batsmen Imran ever was in his career.

 

Sangakarra averages 57 while Sachin averages 51, who is better batsman.

 

 

 

38 and 31 avg is still a big difference. Imran does have more not outs but even considering that, he qualifies for all rounder quite comfortably. Jadeja also has a lot of not outs and he averages 36, failing twice in WTC Final'21 and '23. That doesn't disqualify him from all rounder. Imran has a WC Final knock in addition to strengthen his case where he was the best batsman on show from both sides. 

 

Botham is better bat than Imran and ability wise, Kapil was also better. But in terms of performance, it is debatable between Kapil and Imran. It is ridiculous to claim that Kapil was 100 times better bat than Imran.

 

Sangakkara vs Sachin is different from this. Sangakkara has hardly played 25% of his matches outside Asia while Sachin has played 60% of them outside Asia. Sanga also has played a lot of games vs minnows while SRT has played a decent bit of games vs minnows but not a lot. Also, his overseas record is much superior, and the quality of bowling attacks in 90s was much higher than in 2000s too. 

[IndiaWC8311]

From TNPL (pace is a loose term)

 

Sunny Sandhu

Harish Kumar

M Mohammaed

Subodh Bhatti

Sonu Yadav

 

[putrevus]

On 7/17/2023 at 2:04 PM, Majestic said:

Completely false. Imran scored 72 after the openers were gone for a single digit score. Cricket was different back then compared to now. You can't just look at strike rate and even then he maintained a strike rate better than a specialist batsman, Miandad who scored 58(98). Imran's knock was Gambhiresque.

 

38 and 31 avg is still a big difference. Imran does have more not outs but even considering that, he qualifies for all rounder quite comfortably. Jadeja also has a lot of not outs and he averages 36, failing twice in WTC Final'21 and '23. That doesn't disqualify him from all rounder. Imran has a WC Final knock in addition to strengthen his case where he was the best batsman on show from both sides. 

 

Botham is better bat than Imran and ability wise, Kapil was also better. But in terms of performance, it is debatable between Kapil and Imran. It is ridiculous to claim that Kapil was 100 times better bat than Imran.

 

Sangakkara vs Sachin is different from this. Sangakkara has hardly played 25% of his matches outside Asia while Sachin has played 60% of them outside Asia. Sanga also has played a lot of games vs minnows while SRT has played a decent bit of games vs minnows but not a lot. Also, his overseas record is much superior, and the quality of bowling attacks in 90s was much higher than in 2000s too. 

Imran in his wildest dreams cannot play a innings like what Kapil did walking at 31/6 against ramaging Allan Donald who was mowing down  Indian line up like pack of card and score 129, nor can he score 175 not walking at 9/4 against Zimbawe and score 175 nor could he Score 89  against fierce Patric Paterson who was bowling faster than lightening.

 

 

Batting at number 6 or 7 is all about scoring runs when your team needs runs. Both Botham and Kapil did far better than Imran ever could.

 

All Imran ever was a bowler who could bat.

 

 

Again another ridiculous  theory of how Outside Asia runs are somehow more important and tougher than runs scored in Asia.

 

Sachin scored highest score was against a minnow and he scored his second most 100s against a minnow.

 

Kallis also has 57 avg vs Sachin 51 , he played more tests in SENA than Sachin according to your theory.Who is better batsman? 

Edited July 18, 2023 by putrevus

[Bublu Bhuyan]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Imran in his wildest dreams cannot play a innings like what Kapil did walking at 31/6 against ramaging Allan Donald who was mowing down  Indian line up like pack of card and score 129, nor can he score 175 not walking at 9/4 against Zimbawe and score 175 nor could he Score 89  against fierce Patric Paterson who was bowling faster than lightening.

 

 

Batting at number 6 or 7 is all about scoring runs when your team needs runs. Both Botham and Kapil did far better than Imran ever could.

 

All Imran ever was a bowler who could bat.

 

 

Again another ridiculous  theory of how Outside Asia runs are somehow more important and tougher than runs scored in Asia.

 

Sachin scored highest score was against a minnow and he scored his second most 100s against a minnow.

 

Kallis also has 57 avg vs Sachin 51 , he played more tests in SENA than Sachin according to your theory.Who is better batsman? 

Sachin has an average of 51? Kallis has an average of 57? Since when?

[Majestic]

6 hours ago, putrevus said:

Imran in his wildest dreams cannot play a innings like what Kapil did walking at 31/6 against ramaging Allan Donald who was mowing down  Indian line up like pack of card and score 129, nor can he score 175 not walking at 9/4 against Zimbawe and score 175 nor could he Score 89  against fierce Patric Paterson who was bowling faster than lightening.

 

 

Batting at number 6 or 7 is all about scoring runs when your team needs runs. Both Botham and Kapil did far better than Imran ever could.

 

All Imran ever was a bowler who could bat.

 

 

Again another ridiculous  theory of how Outside Asia runs are somehow more important and tougher than runs scored in Asia.

 

Sachin scored highest score was against a minnow and he scored his second most 100s against a minnow.

 

Kallis also has 57 avg vs Sachin 51 , he played more tests in SENA than Sachin according to your theory.Who is better batsman? 

Imran does have a test hundred vs Windies and that was in 1980( early in his career) vs Marshall, Garner, Croft and Sylvester Clarke. That's a furious attack and I already mentioned World Cup Final knock. He was definitely a good batsman, lesser than Botham and on par with Kapil. Anyways, the debate was if Imran was 2nd best A/R and due to his bowling,captaincy and his batting, he definitely was. Almost stopped bowling in last 10 games, played mostly in Asia and still managed to pick 380 wickets (4.5 WPM).

 

For Asian players, performance outside Asia matters and the quality of bowling attack in 90s was superior to 00s. Kallis and Sanga were better than Sachin if we restrict since 2000 but SRT's exploits in 90s really strengthens his case. With Kallis, another problem was that he was an accumulator who didn't played many match defining test knocks. One of SA's biggest wins were in 2008( Aus and Eng tour) and the standout player was Graeme Smith. Kallis is still an ATG bat and if you count his overall exploit, he is arguably a better cricketer.