The 4 basic qualities needed to be a top pacer .... and tracking Indian pacers who have them now

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Players can get experience only if they get to play. 

 

 

Before this current injury spanning close to a year, Bumrah had just ONE significant injury in 6.5 years.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

how would anyone know given that most of the younger players have gotten exactly zero chances?

It will take years of learning, fitness and discipline for them to succeed in executing the skill sets they possess consistently.

 

Siraj is not able to hit the top level because of lack of discipline and fitness. Bumrah is unusual case because of his action which makes it harder for batsman. The only way things change for pacers is when we get over from this rank turners **** and play on well balanced pitches. This idea of playing on rank turners where 80% of wickets are picked by spinners will help in winning at home because of lack of quality of spinners from opposition but will not let us win series overseas as consistently as other great teams have done in past and hence maximizing the skill sets, fitness and discipline of pacers is extremely key.

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

 

It will take years of learning, fitness and discipline for them to succeed in executing the skill sets they possess consistently.

 

Siraj is not able to hit the top level because of lack of discipline and fitness. Bumrah is unusual case because of his action which makes it harder for batsman. The only way things change for pacers is when we get over from this rank turners **** and play on well balanced pitches. This idea of playing on rank turners where 80% of wickets are picked by spinners will help in winning at home because of lack of quality of spinners from opposition but will not let us win series overseas as consistently as other great teams have done in past and hence maximizing the skill sets, fitness and discipline of pacers is extremely key.

My reference was clearly to batters, which you blithely ignored. After all, I highlighted the sentence: "Moreover, we don't have a lot of young batsman whom we can keep hope that they will succeed overseas."

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

 

It will take years of learning, fitness and discipline for them to succeed in executing the skill sets they possess consistently.

 

 

Not necessarily. Top pacers often reach adequate levels within a years or two of international debut. 

 

Years of learning are for mediocres like Ishant, who took 8 years to mature. 

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, Lord said:

the biggest ability for Test pacer is to bowl long spells without reducing pace or to up the pace when needed. Also to bowl dry spells is important in this era

 

I agree.

 

And if a pacer reduces pace after bowling for long then he won't be able hurry batsmen consistently.  Similarly flat pitch and set batsmen means the need to up pace to hurry them. Hence both are covered under the first point. Which is why I used the term consistently. 

 

And bowling dry spells means bowling in the right areas. 

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

My reference was clearly to batters, which you blithely ignored. After all, I highlighted the sentence: "Moreover, we don't have a lot of young batsman whom we can keep hope that they will succeed overseas."

Aah sorry, I missed out that you highlighted one specific line.

 

Coming to batters, I don't think Sarfaraz has the game to succeed vs pace overseas. He belongs to the same journeyman league which Mayank, Vihari and S Iyer belong. My only bet would be on Jaiswal, Gill and Pant among young Indian batsman. There is a scarcity there as well. In a few years time, maybe Sundar as well once he matures but it will take him atleast 5 years given his injuries concerns and then the learning will start which includes adapting through formats.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Not necessarily. Top pacers often reach adequate levels within a years or two of international debut. 

 

Years of learning are for mediocres like Ishant, who took 8 years to mature. 

Top pacers who reach that level need to have that discipline and fitness. Which Indian pacer has reached that level in a year or two of international debut? Bumrah is an unusual case thanks to his action.

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Aah sorry, I missed out that you highlighted one specific line.

 

Coming to batters, I don't think Sarfaraz has the game to succeed vs pace overseas. He belongs to the same journeyman league which Mayank, Vihari and S Iyer belong. My only bet would be on Jaiswal, Gill and Pant among young Indian batsman. There is a scarcity there as well. In a few years time, maybe Sundar as well once he matures but it will take him atleast 5 years given his injuries concerns and then the learning will start which includes adapting through formats.

there are others such as sai sudharshan, gaikwad, rinku singh, dhull, etc - some of them are better for LOIs, but some seem to have the game for tests. sudharsan can do well in SC and WI

[express bowling]

8 hours ago, Majestic said:

Top pacers who reach that level need to have that discipline and fitness. Which Indian pacer has reached that level in a year or two of international debut? Bumrah is an unusual case thanks to his action.

 

Before Bumrah and Shami, we had not produced ANY top international level fast bowler. We did not have the needed fast bowling culture before that. 

 

Now, Indian pacers have the discipline and the fitness to bowl 20 overs a day at almost same pace. 

 

As far as injuries are concerned, pacers from every country get injured. Look at Archer. Pattinson did not have an adequate career due to injury. Cummins missed 5 or 6 years after debut due to injuries. Shaheen just had a long layoff. Ferguson misses more than he plays. Bishop, Bond, Simon Jones etc. all suffered badly.  There are many many more examples. 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by express bowling

[express bowling]

Indian test match Fast bowling was transformed after the introduction of Bumrah in January 2018.

 

Bowling averages of Indian pacers since then in test matches from  01.02.2018  to  21.07.2023 ......

 

Ishant  ....   21.37     .. Rank 3

Bumrah .... 21.99     .. Rank 5

Umesh   .... 24.05   .. Rank 9

Shami   ..... 25.53    .. Rank 15

 

4 pacers in the top 15 test bowlers and averaging 21 to 25.  This is tremendous. Full credit to Kohli, Arun and Shastri for creating this vicious pace attack.

 

And no medium pacers here.

 

**  Rank is based on bowlers of all countries with lowest averages and 70+ test wickets in this 5.5 years.

 

And now this TM is about to destroy this with Unadkat, Mukesh, Shardul and other trundlers. 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=70;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=21+Jul+2023;spanmin1=01+Jan+2018;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

Edited July 21, 2023 by express bowling

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Indian test match Fast bowling was transformed after the introduction of Bumrah in January 2018.

 

Bowling averages of Indian pacers since then in test matches from  01.02.2018  to  21.07.2023 ......

 

Ishant  ....   21.37     .. Rank 3

Bumrah .... 21.99     .. Rank 5

Umesh   .... 24.05   .. Rank 9

Shami   ..... 25.53    .. Rank 15

 

4 pacers in the top 15 test bowlers and averaging 21 to 25.  This is tremendous. Full credit to Kohli, Arun and Shastri for creating this vicious pace attack.

 

And no medium pacers here.

 

**  Rank is based on bowlers of all countries with lowest averages and 70+ test wickets in this 5.5 years.

 

And now this TM is about to destroy this with Unadkat, Mukesh, Shardul and other trundlers. 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=70;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=21+Jul+2023;spanmin1=01+Jan+2018;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

Most people here could not wait to get rid of Kohli as captain and Shastri as coach. 

 

Both Kohli and Shastri tried to do something right, you need to start competing first before you win. Both of them might not have won series everywhere, but they sure did compete everywhere.

 

They also created a template on how to make this team compete in any conditions.

 

 

Ganguly just like many ICFers thought very lightly about what those two have done even though he should have understood how hard it is for team to compete everywhere.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by putrevus

[singhvivek141]

14 hours ago, Majestic said:

Top pacers who reach that level need to have that discipline and fitness. Which Indian pacer has reached that level in a year or two of international debut? Bumrah is an unusual case thanks to his action.

Shami debuted in 2012, by 2014 he became our prime pacer and was leading attack in 2015 ODI WC.

Post that he got injured and then came back with a run-up of shorter strides...which helped his sustain his pace throughout the day.

 

I agree that bowlers take couple of years to mature, but that won't happen while sitting on the fringes. You need to include one young pacer in the company of  settled pacers who can guide them when things go tough. Domestics will help the bowler to maintain endurance, but international pressure is different.

[putrevus]

14 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Shami debuted in 2012, by 2014 he became our prime pacer and was leading attack in 2015 ODI WC.

Post that he got injured and then came back with a run-up of shorter strides...which helped his sustain his pace throughout the day.

 

I agree that bowlers take couple of years to mature, but that won't happen while sitting on the fringes. You need to include one young pacer in the company of  settled pacers who can guide them when things go tough. Domestics will help the bowler to maintain endurance, but international pressure is different.

Shami was never this potent before 2018, he was okay at best. 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Most people here could not wait to get rid of Kohli as captain and Shastri as coach. 

 

Both Kohli and Shastri tried to do something right, you need to start competing first before you win. Both of them might not have won series everywhere, but they sure did compete everywhere.

 

They also created a template on how to make this team compete in any conditions.

 

 

Ganguly just like many ICFers thought very lightly about what those two have done even though he should have understood how hard it is for team to compete everywhere.

 

 

 

 

2 Test Series wins in Australia 

 

Was leading 2 -1 in England. 

 

Winning almost everything at home and eveeything against minnows.

 

I will take this as almost winning everywhere. 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

, but that won't happen while sitting on the fringes. You need to include one young pacer in the company of  settled pacers who can guide them when things go tough. Domestics will help the bowler to maintain endurance, but international pressure is different.

 

Kuldeep Sen should have played both tests in the WI. He is fit. 

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

2 Test Series wins in Australia 

 

Was leading 2 -1 in England. 

 

Winning almost everything at home and eveeything against minnows.

 

I will take this as almost winning everywhere. 

Plus they won every bilateral odi series. Yes they have failed in major Semi finals and knockouts but IMO they were unlucky too even in 2019 semis, who knows if they batted on that same day how things would have turned out.

 

Kohli as a captain raised his batting to another level, where as past Indian captains crumbled under captaincy pressure. That people took it for granted.

[Vijy]

8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

2 Test Series wins in Australia 

 

Was leading 2 -1 in England. 

 

Winning almost everything at home and eveeything against minnows.

 

I will take this as almost winning everywhere. 

could have even more with that attack if not for some bizarre selections and decisions (especially in SA and Eng). that being said, it was still far better than all-trundler attack of dravidiot and vada pav

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 Yes they have failed in major Semi finals and knockouts but IMO they were unlucky too even in 2019 semis,

 

Should have played Shami in red hot form in place of Bhuvi in WC 19 SF.

 

I was always surprised how an out an out fast bowlers' captain in tests could support that trundler in ODIs when Bhuvi was averaging 37+ in that format. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by express bowling

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

Should have played Shami in red hot form in place of Bhuvi.

 

I was always surprised how an out an out fast bowlers' captain in tests could support that trundler in ODIs when Bhuvi was averaging 37+ in that format. 

IMO Bhuvi's batting ability was the reason why he was chosen over Shami . Plus Bhuvi somehow created this persona just like Dhoni  (in t20s)  that he is indispensible.

[Abhilash93]

Isn't it too early to say that Harshit and Hangargekar have ability to bowl consistently in good areas ?

 

Have often seen them spray the ball around in many of the televised matches that I have watched.

[express bowling]

14 minutes ago, putrevus said:

IMO Bhuvi's batting ability was the reason why he was chosen over Shami . Plus Bhuvi somehow created this persona just like Dhoni  (in t20s)  that he is indispensible.

 

 

Bhuvi's batting ability was in tests and never in LOIs.  He had a batting SR of just 74 and batting average of 14 in ODIs.