zen Posted September 9, 2023 Share Posted September 9, 2023 (edited) After watching 1,000s of films encompassing multiple genres and languages and creating many lists, today I posed myself the question - "Which is the greatest film of all time?" Immediately, a variety of names began to flash in my mind - City Lights, Citizen Kane, Singin in the Rain, Tokyo Story, Lawrence of Arabia, Persona, 2001: A Space Odyssey, The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, In the Mood for Love, and so on. Some of the names that flashed were of films that are not necessarily relatively speaking mainstream. Here, I want to focus on films with relatively more widespread appeal (steering away from a Jeanne Dielman type of scenario), a long history that stamps their staying power, and preferably from directors with a long resume of "great" work. After ruminating about various aspects of films, two names began to stand out more and more - Kurosawa's Seven Samurai (1954) and Hitchcock's Vertigo (1958). Both these 50s films remain timeless classics with widespread appeal. Both of them are not only technically solid but also have a "heart" to take viewers on an emotional journey. Talking about technical strengths - acting, screenplay, cinematography (including lighting and production design), and score are top-notch. For Seven Samurai, it is said that if you pause any frame, it makes a great photograph: Vertigo excels in its use of colors - red and green. The actors' positioning and framing provide the film with magical qualities: ^ Red is Scottie's color, while green is Madeleine's. In the above sequence, the colors have changed highlighting the attraction b/w the two characters. Apart from representing East and West respectively, the two films have other differences too. As can be seen from the images above one is in B&W, while the other is in color. One is an epic running close to 3 1/2 hours, while the other is just over 2 hours. One is a period piece, while the other is contemporary (at its release in the 50s). One has an ensemble cast, while the other is mainly focused on a couple of characters. One takes place in remote areas, while the other captures the beauty and hustle-bustle of San Fransisco. One was widely accepted as a classic on its release, while the other, like a champion marathon runner, continued to gain momentum over a period of time. Seven Samurai has "inspired" many popular films such as The Magnificent Seven, Sholay, etc., while it has been difficult to remake Vertigo. A good example of a Vertigo-inspired film is Decision to Leave. Hollywood is planning to remake Vertigo with Robert Downey Jr eyeing the lead role. So which one of the two takes the crown? Ideally, it should be a tie, but if a tie is not on, which one would you pick? Edited September 12, 2023 by zen coffee_rules 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 9, 2023 Author Share Posted September 9, 2023 Under_Score 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 Between the two. Seven Samurai. For me, 2001 A Space Odyssey. In terms of pure influence on cinéma, I would Seven Samurai was perhaps the biggest one. In terms of blocking of scene for action séquences, it was pioneer. Perhaps rashomon had elements of the style. Use of slow motion. zen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 Have to watch Vertigo again to pick. Recently watched SS, what an awesome movie, sets the precedent for movie making. Arguably the best director of all, Kurusawa. Everything in the movie is perfect, master story teller, action scenes in B&W in natural sunlight, BGM, acting ! All the so-called inspirations (read copies) pales in comparison. Was so impressed with Maginificient Seven during childhood. It is so mediocre in comparison, now to compare, Hollywoodisation bull crap! zen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 10, 2023 Author Share Posted September 10, 2023 (edited) Time to key in my choice in what appears to be one of the toughest movie-related questions (the films are different too). Additionally, in a Kurosawa vs. Hitchcock battle, the fan favorites, the stakes are as high as they can get! For reference, in the 2022 S&S critics' poll, Seven Samurai was ranked #20 (highest rank #3 in 1982) and Vertigo was ranked #2 (highest rank #1 in 2012). On this occasion, I am going with Vertigo. Reasons include: Vertigo is a film with multiple layers. On one dimension, there is the living v the dead layer. Then there is the real v the psychological world. There is a layer on the search for truth and its consequences. Scottie's acrophobia is woven into the story, along with his mental health through his obsession and pain. Only a master director like Hitchcock operating at his best could have pulled all these layers off. The cinematography including framing and actor positioning is noteworthy. The use of colors, including assigning colors to the lead characters - red for Scottie and green for Madeleine, is exemplary. Colors are such a part of Vertigo that it is difficult to imagine the film without its vibrant palette. The score by Bernard Herrmann accentuates the action on screen. The San Fransisco area is shot beautifully. It is one of the best examples of a film where a city serves as a character. It is a haunting tragedy that can make you feel uncomfortable in the end. The blending of so many complexities and elevating the film through technical brilliance makes it one of the most unique, accomplished, and difficult films to make. Vertigo is a work of art and a shining example of film noir. Edited September 12, 2023 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 11, 2023 Author Share Posted September 11, 2023 On 9/10/2023 at 1:34 AM, ravishingravi said: In terms of pure influence on cinéma, I would Seven Samurai was perhaps the biggest one. Seven Samurai is also known to popularize the now common plot element in action and heist films of "assembling a team". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 11, 2023 Author Share Posted September 11, 2023 23 hours ago, coffee_rules said: All the so-called inspirations (read copies) pales in comparison. Was so impressed with Maginificient Seven during childhood. It is so mediocre in comparison, now to compare, Hollywoodisation bull crap! Yeah, most of the "inspirations" do not quite measure up while Seven Samurai continues to shine. A similar case with Yojimbo versus many Westerns inspired by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 15, 2023 Author Share Posted September 15, 2023 A brilliant piece of analysis on framing in Vertigo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 Godfather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted September 16, 2023 Share Posted September 16, 2023 On 9/9/2023 at 4:06 PM, zen said: After watching 1,000s of films encompassing multiple genres and languages and creating many lists, today I posed myself the question - "Which is the greatest film of all time?" Immediately, a variety of names began to flash in my mind - City Lights, Citizen Kane, Singin in the Rain, Tokyo Story, Lawrence of Arabia, Persona, 2001: A Space Odyssey, The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, In the Mood for Love, and so on. Some of the names that flashed were of films that are not necessarily relatively speaking mainstream. Here, I want to focus on films with relatively more widespread appeal (steering away from a Jeanne Dielman type of scenario), a long history that stamps their staying power, and preferably from directors with a long resume of "great" work. After ruminating about various aspects of films, two names began to stand out more and more - Kurosawa's Seven Samurai (1954) and Hitchcock's Vertigo (1958). Both these 50s films remain timeless classics with widespread appeal. Both of them are not only technically solid but also have a "heart" to take viewers on an emotional journey. Talking about technical strengths - acting, screenplay, cinematography (including lighting and production design), and score are top-notch. For Seven Samurai, it is said that if you pause any frame, it makes a great photograph: Vertigo excels in its use of colors - red and green. The actors' positioning and framing provide the film with magical qualities: ^ Red is Scottie's color, while green is Madeleine's. In the above sequence, the colors have changed highlighting the attraction b/w the two characters. Apart from representing East and West respectively, the two films have other differences too. As can be seen from the images above one is in B&W, while the other is in color. One is an epic running close to 3 1/2 hours, while the other is just over 2 hours. One is a period piece, while the other is contemporary (at its release in the 50s). One has an ensemble cast, while the other is mainly focused on a couple of characters. One takes place in remote areas, while the other captures the beauty and hustle-bustle of San Fransisco. One was widely accepted as a classic on its release, while the other, like a champion marathon runner, continued to gain momentum over a period of time. Seven Samurai has "inspired" many popular films such as The Magnificent Seven, Sholay, etc., while it has been difficult to remake Vertigo. A good example of a Vertigo-inspired film is Decision to Leave. Hollywood is planning to remake Vertigo with Robert Downey Jr eyeing the lead role. So which one of the two takes the crown? Ideally, it should be a tie, but if a tie is not on, which one would you pick? You cannot make a case for one movie being all time best. No way. There are several good movies out there. In the end it is about entertainment and no single movie had the global impact that Godfather had. Having said that there are dozens of great movies out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Khota said: You cannot make a case for one movie being all time best. No way. There are several good movies out there. In the end it is about entertainment and no single movie had the global impact that Godfather had. Having said that there are dozens of great movies out there. As mentioned in the OP, while there are many great films (including The Godfather), the topic is focused on Seven Samurai and Vertigo (arrived at through a process). The topic also pits the best from the West and the East. Talking about the East, In the Mood for Love is a superb film too but it lost out as it is relatively a recent film (less "staying" power), and also because of Kurosawa's lengthy resume of great films relative to Wong kar-wai's. Another film from the East, Tokyo Story (and Ozu is among my favorite directors and as reputed as Kurosawa), could have been picked as well but it took the backseat due to its relatively less widespread appeal (an example of transcendental style of filmmaking). Tokyo Story also delivers a powerful message. As for the West, The Godfather does meet various criteria but Vertigo has constantly climbed highly respected greatest films polls such as the Sight and Sound poll since the 1980s. It balances both the art and entertainment aspects while being an astonishingly great example of filmmaking. Hitchcock's wizardry adds another feather to its cap! Art <--------------------0--------------------> Entertainment 2001 Vertigo Godfather Tokyo Story Seven Samurai In the Mood for Love Citizen Kane City Lights Persona Singin in the Rain PS You need to pick one from these two. If you have not watched these two films recently, give them a shot! Edited September 16, 2023 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 I posted a good analysis on YT on framing techniques in Vertigo. As mentioned, another great aspect of the film is its colors. The palette turns the film into a piece of art. Tokyo Story's director Ozu preferred to shoot in B&W. When color became the trend, he was forced to shoot in color due to the demands from various stakeholders. Instead of merely replacing B&W with color, Ozu used color as an art. Below he created a monochrome look that is closer to his preferred B&W: He also utilized the full spectrum of colors where required: Similarly, Vertigo is an example where almost every frame is enhanced through color: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 16, 2023 Author Share Posted September 16, 2023 More: In short, almost any frame is like art! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 On 9/16/2023 at 10:02 AM, zen said: As mentioned in the OP, while there are many great films (including The Godfather), the topic is focused on Seven Samurai and Vertigo (arrived at through a process). The topic also pits the best from the West and the East. Talking about the East, In the Mood for Love is a superb film too but it lost out as it is relatively a recent film (less "staying" power), and also because of Kurosawa's lengthy resume of great films relative to Wong kar-wai's. Another film from the East, Tokyo Story (and Ozu is among my favorite directors and as reputed as Kurosawa), could have been picked as well but it took the backseat due to its relatively less widespread appeal (an example of transcendental style of filmmaking). Tokyo Story also delivers a powerful message. As for the West, The Godfather does meet various criteria but Vertigo has constantly climbed highly respected greatest films polls such as the Sight and Sound poll since the 1980s. It balances both the art and entertainment aspects while being an astonishingly great example of filmmaking. Hitchcock's wizardry adds another feather to its cap! Art <--------------------0--------------------> Entertainment 2001 Vertigo Godfather Tokyo Story Seven Samurai In the Mood for Love Citizen Kane City Lights Persona Singin in the Rain PS You need to pick one from these two. If you have not watched these two films recently, give them a shot! Your topic says "Greatest Film of All Time" Define greatest? Is it better than Matrix series? Is it better than Unforgiven? Is it better than Predator? Is it better than Star Wars? Is it better than Star Trek? Is it better than Alien? The answer for me is no in all the instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 17, 2023 Author Share Posted September 17, 2023 10 minutes ago, Khota said: Your topic says "Greatest Film of All Time" Define greatest? Is it better than Matrix series? Is it better than Unforgiven? Is it better than Predator? Is it better than Star Wars? Is it better than Star Trek? Is it better than Alien? The answer for me is no in all the instances. Did you forget Terminator 2? Rambo? Die Hard? Police Academy? Police Story? Hangover? Barbie? (Obviously not a topic for you if you don't see the difference) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, zen said: Did you forget Terminator 2? Rambo? Die Hard? Police Academy? Police Story? Hangover? Barbie? (Obviously not a topic for you if you don't see the difference) I can see your snobbery all over this sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 17, 2023 Author Share Posted September 17, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Khota said: I can see your snobbery all over this sentence. Yes, the topic is defined (if it is for the snobs, so be it) where films such as those listed in the OP are being discussed - 2022 & 2012 PS Many folks here know I am a big fan of 007 films (especially the classics which are rated among the best in the genre) but I am not going to discuss those here (despite their relatively high entertainment and repeat value). Edited September 17, 2023 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khota Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 3 hours ago, zen said: Yes, the topic is defined (if it is for the snobs, so be it) where films such as those listed in the OP are being discussed - 2022 & 2012 PS Many folks here know I am a big fan of 007 films (especially the classics which are rated among the best in the genre) but I am not going to discuss those here (despite their relatively high entertainment and repeat value). You call the topic "Best Film of All Time" and then you force everyone to make a binary choice between what you think. Real life seldom works that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted September 17, 2023 Author Share Posted September 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, Khota said: You call the topic "Best Film of All Time" and then you force everyone to make a binary choice between what you think. Real life seldom works that way. A battle for the “greatest” film title b/w two great films by two legendary directors with a long list of great work, each representing a different geographic region, two different philosophies to film making, … To participate, you should watch the two films and then comeback (rather than supplying random names) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted September 18, 2023 Share Posted September 18, 2023 6 hours ago, Khota said: You call the topic "Best Film of All Time" and then you force everyone to make a binary choice between what you think. Real life seldom works that way. Nobody stops you from opening a thread of your 2 favorite Greatest movie of all time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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