Intersectionality and bizarre alliances / narratives

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Lannister said:

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to convey here. My focus is on the religious right and how their beliefs contribute to global harm. I haven't mentioned anything about Western culture, and I'm not particularly interested in that. Are incidents of rape even documented in Asian countries for comparison? Moreover, marital rapes aren't even considered a crime in India. What do you want to compare?

 

Well your focus seems to be pre-determined prejudiced position, rather than an actual facts based position. Western culture is cited because they are example of atheist cultures & outcomes under an atheist society. 
There is no reason to think that Asians, who are 65% of species homo sapiens, with far wider variance in religion, wealth & modes of government than westerners, ALL don't report well enough as the whiteman nations. Marital rape isnt recognised in India, but promissary rape isnt recognised in the west. So yes, we do want to compare the numbers, particularly when the dataset from Asia is far, far better than the western nations and just as consistent mathematically. 

Ie, you said that religious societies are bad for women. So i am curious to see your knowledge on the rape per capita data from the various religious societies and irreligious societies worldwide and whether this simple data contradicts or supports your rather unsubstantiated statement. 

 

[coffee_rules]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Well your focus seems to be pre-determined prejudiced position, rather than an actual facts based position. Western culture is cited because they are example of atheist cultures & outcomes under an atheist society. 
There is no reason to think that Asians, who are 65% of species homo sapiens, with far wider variance in religion, wealth & modes of government than westerners, ALL don't report well enough as the whiteman nations. Marital rape isnt recognised in India, but promissary rape isnt recognised in the west. So yes, we do want to compare the numbers, particularly when the dataset from Asia is far, far better than the western nations and just as consistent mathematically. 

Ie, you said that religious societies are bad for women. So i am curious to see your knowledge on the rape per capita data from the various religious societies and irreligious societies worldwide and whether this simple data contradicts or supports your rather unsubstantiated statement. 

 

Not denying there is no such thing as marital rape, but that whole idea is to disrupt the family system. Most wives or husbands can say no based on their mood. Domestic violence is the prime problem. Marital rape is just a new term that Gen Z wants to jizz on. Oppressed vs oppressor philosophy is being applied everywhere. That has been the basic motto of communism , disrupt the society for a utopian revolution . Let’s call it domestic abuse that ihas been a societal problem for ages. 

[Lannister]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:14 AM, coffee_rules said:

Tell us about which other religion is reforming from medieval practices? Caste discrimination is outlawed. There is a legal process being followed for temple acquisitions. Are churches and Mosques under government control unlike Hindu temples? Secular Atheist like you should fight against Government control of Temples. Caste discrimination is a law and order or constitution issue rather than religious. Do you support Dalit Christian reservations? It should be outlawed right as per Christianity? 

When did Hinduism undergo reform? Reforming any religion is not possible when its core is built on the claims of the existence of god. Anti-discriminatory laws have been made possible thanks to democratic institutions. 

 

Secularism entails keeping religions separate from the state. Since it lacks evidence, governments shouldn't expend time and resources on religious matters. You need to question your BJP government about its attempts to bring religion under control and openly defecating all over the place. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Lannister

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Lannister said:

When did Hinduism undergo reform? Reforming any religion is not possible when its core is built on the claims of the existence of god. Anti-discriminatory laws have been made possible thanks to democratic institutions. 

 

Secularism entails keeping religions separate from the state. Since it lacks evidence, governments shouldn't expend time and resources on religious matters. You need to question your BJP government about its attempts to bring religion under control and openly defecating all over the place. 

 

False. Secularism means religion doesn't weild direct influence in the government ( and no government system is perfectly secular either).  It doesn't mean governments dont meddle in/keep tabs on religion. Even in your precious America, there are govt sponsored institutions like CFOI for example. 

And judging by history, i see no basis for needing secularism, unless dealing with Abrahamic religions that are fascist in its nature. Otherwise, multi-faith presence is noted without any incident for virtually all societies in recorded history, without any need for secularism. 

Ergo, secularism, which rose in Europe as a response to fascist Abrahamic religions ( christianity in this case) isnt required for the non abrahamic religions.

Which is why atheist secularists like you have it in your interest to brand ALL religions as equally bad, to provide a false necessity and false value for your secular ideology.

 

[Lannister]

On 11/26/2023 at 8:43 AM, Muloghonto said:

Awaiting proof and citation of evidence....

Propagation of evil ? you mean like the anti human leftist ideals that's lead to tens of millions dead in less than 50 years of their rule ? I am not seeing any evidence from you, just prejudice, propaganda and unsubstantiated claims.

I am still awaiting instances of hindu/buddhist/shinto/taoist jihads, crusades, etc. 

 

What exactly are these anti-human leftist ideals? When have leftists been responsible for millions of deaths? Bro, quit puffing on those divine fumes and kindly extract your head from the cosmic depths of your own posterior, please.

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, Lannister said:

What exactly are these anti-human leftist ideals? When have leftists been responsible for millions of deaths? Bro, quit puffing on those divine fumes and kindly extract your head from the cosmic depths of your own posterior, please.

Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Naxalites & Maoists say hello.Their kill count is higher than any religious organisation. 

The anti human ideals of leftists are all the leftist ideals that conflict with natural human social dynamics such as free trade & wealth accumulation. If your principles go against the dominant behaviour of a species, then by definition its anti-species (for that species). 

 

[Lannister]

On 11/26/2023 at 9:23 AM, Muloghonto said:

PS:  This goes on to show, liberals have poor comprehension skills and low IQ. I specifically asked for examples of inter-sectarian warfare in religion outside of abrahamic religions. The abrahamics have mass murdered sects of their own religion- Shia vs Sunni in Islam and Catholics vs Protestants vs Orthodox in Christianity. Show us examples of any other religion mass murdering its own sects in history of mankind. If you cannot, you again must accept the logical conclusion that your position is unsubstantiated and counter-factual.

 

Well, this is a tad awkward. Do instances of upper-caste Hindus attacking, killing, and discriminating against lower-caste Hindus count? 

[Lannister]

On 11/26/2023 at 12:33 PM, Gollum said:

Maldives functions within a democratic framework but it is illegal for a Maldivian citizen to be a non-Muslim, else capital punishment.

Malaysia, Bangladesh, Turkey aren't theocracies but look at them today.

Interesting. I wasn't aware there's a fully operational democratic country where Muslims form the majority. Is that correct?

[Muloghonto]

12 minutes ago, Lannister said:

Well, this is a tad awkward. Do instances of upper-caste Hindus attacking, killing, and discriminating against lower-caste Hindus count? 

No. Inter-sectarian warfare has a very simple and consistent definition. It'd be vaishanav vs shaivite vs shakta, hare krishnas vs swaminarayans, theravada vs mahayana etc. type of conflicts. 

So show us evidence of inter-sectarian killings, genocide & evictions in ANY religion not from the desert barbarians. 

You must, to support your conclusion that all religions are equal in their impact or withdraw such a retarded conclusion.

 

Besides, given that India's murder rate is comparable to modern western nations, while having 10x lower sexual assaults per capita ( India is not unique in this, almost all Asian countries show this trend in data), i am not too concerned about upper caste violence or violence in Indian soceity at all.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Lannister said:

Interesting. I wasn't aware there's a fully operational democratic country where Muslims form the majority. Is that correct?

If you aren't aware of even the most basic things about the world, perhaps you should re-evaluate your proclivities in judging the world. Malaysia, Indonesia & Turkey are all muslim dominant and all have fully operational democracies.

 

[Lannister]

On 11/26/2023 at 12:37 PM, Muloghonto said:

how can it be slavery, when slavery has been defined  through the ages as a person being legal property of another, to be bought,sold or gifted to another ? On what basis is selling human beings as property better than not ? 

Religion is all-too-often a refuge for scoundrels. Why do you think you have the authority to interpret its meaning for those facing oppression? Do you come from a marginalized background yourself?

[Muloghonto]

36 minutes ago, Lannister said:

Religion is all-too-often a refuge for scoundrels.

So is any ideology, including leftism

36 minutes ago, Lannister said:

 

Why do you think you have the authority to interpret its meaning for those facing oppression? Do you come from a marginalized background yourself?

I dont have to come from a marginalised background to know what marginalised backgrounds think. I dont have to be an african american to know how they feel about slavery, for eg. Also, I dont subscribe to western postmodernist nonsense of identity conferring authority. Your identity is irrelevant towards competence. You could be the world's most ignorant dalit about dalits or the most educated. Same applies to an European colonialist. All you are an authority in, is YOUR anecdotal experience and thats it. So my identity,is irrelevant to this discussion. 

 

And i have full authority to interpret the meaning of words and their implications, so i ask again- on what basis have you concluded that a system that allows humans the exact same status as a chair or a table-to be bought, sold & gifted by the owner as they see fit, over a system that doesn't allow for ownership of human beings. 

Since it is a statement YOU made, it is a statement YOU are required to justify.

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Muloghonto

[Lannister]

On 11/27/2023 at 6:46 AM, Muloghonto said:

Well your focus seems to be pre-determined prejudiced position, rather than an actual facts based position. Western culture is cited because they are example of atheist cultures & outcomes under an atheist society. 

A religious zealot is now seeking to redefine the concept of atheism for others. Allow me to clarify - it's a total rejection of your sick beliefs about our fellow human beings.

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, Lannister said:

A religious zealot is now seeking to redefine the concept of atheism for others.

1. I am not a religious zealot. 

2. I am re-defining nothing, i am simply citing statistics and using societies that are self declared bastions of atheism, to judge the outcomes in an atheist society vs religious ones. 

5 minutes ago, Lannister said:

 

Allow me to clarify - it's a total rejection of your sick beliefs about our fellow human beings.

But you dont know what my beliefs are, lol. 

To judge something without knowing it, is the definition of prejudice and bias and you are showing yet another proof of it. 

 

[Lannister]

On 11/27/2023 at 6:46 AM, Muloghonto said:

Marital rape isnt recognised in India, but promissary rape isnt recognised in the west.

Are you suggesting the criminalization of promise-based rape while exempting marital rape? So once a woman is married, she is bound by a predetermined fate in your religious perspective, allowing unrestricted actions. It's no surprise that religious ideologues are apprehensive about women's liberation.

[Muloghonto]

46 minutes ago, Lannister said:

Are you suggesting the criminalization of promise-based rape while exempting marital rape? So once a woman is married, she is bound by a predetermined fate in your religious perspective, allowing unrestricted actions. It's no surprise that religious ideologues are apprehensive about women's liberation.

No, i am suggesting that both are good to be criminalised and both sides are missing one of the two.

You cannot seek to beat India over the head with it, not when the actual number of rape in India ( and most religious socities across asia vs irreligious & leftist liberal societies of the west) are orders of magnitude lower, while ignoring the facet of rape that IS recorded in India but not in the west. 
 

There is no such perspective in my religion, not to mention, its irrelevant to the ACTUAL data on rape in my religious societies & MOST religious societies vs most atheist dominant societies of the planet. So you lose this one on cold, hard data numbers, champ. 

I have no apprehensions about women's liberation, i just refuse to accept western based liberal/leftie narratives on it, gungadeen. I see no reason to take lectures from liberals, when their track record re: rape & murder of women is so much worse than data from religious societies the world over. Yes, there are some exceptions here and there ( brazil for eg), but the data is more or less contradictory to your propagandist narrative re: women in religions that are not abrahamic religions vs women in modern day west today, who are the standard bearer of your leftie-liberal atheist ideology. 

Women are objectively far worse off in the irreligous societies in most categories not directly dictated by societal wealth. 

[Muloghonto]

53 minutes ago, Lannister said:

Are you suggesting the criminalization of promise-based rape while exempting marital rape? So once a woman is married, she is bound by a predetermined fate in your religious perspective, allowing unrestricted actions. It's no surprise that religious ideologues are apprehensive about women's liberation.

Also, furthermore, you cannot use the innane 'no marital rape is recognised boo hoo' to wish away data is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE lower than your atheist/irreligious west. The math doesn't work that way. India & most of the religious nations in Asia bat at 20-30 times less rape per capita than your collective 'hyooman rights liberal leftie west'. If marital rape was to explain the difference, that'd have to make 99.999% of all rapes as marital rapes - an absurd criterion, as marital rape in no society ( that records it) shows anywhere close to the majoritarian reportings of it. 

So trying to argue that India has anywhere close to the sexual violence we see in your liberal feminism originating societies, is to argue against data, which is overwhelmingly in India's favour. And not just in India's case, but in vast majority of Asia's case w.r.t your precious liberal feminist societies in existence. 

Your 'famous for hyooman rights' Scandinavia for eg, has 70 times- SEVENTY-  than virutally all of Asia!!!!!

Like dear god man, the math to this is inescapable - 0.25% of species homo sapiens, who are the flag bearer of your ideology, has SEVENTY TIMES the per capita sexual violence as sum total of at least 65% of species homo sapiens, that number close to 8 billion. 

 

So, kindly zip it with your innane bakwaas in a forum where there are several math gurus around. If you actually looked at the data and understood even the tiniest bit of mathematics, perhaps you'd see why its ridiculous for leftie feminist liberals to lecture anyone on women's rights, when socities where THEY dominate have it orders of magnitude worse. 

 

We don't take lecture from your liberal kind on women's rights. You guys are plants of the western imperialistic machine and gross failures at actual women's rights in your own backyards. 

 

[Lannister]

On 11/27/2023 at 6:46 AM, Muloghonto said:

you said that religious societies are bad for women.

Well this is obvious, isn't it? Only someone defending religious views like yourself would challenge this notion. In non-religious societies, women are likely to experience greater freedom and fewer safety concerns. When a woman openly shares her experiences, it's religious apologists, such as yourself, who stand to lose more than any other group.

[Muloghonto]

8 hours ago, Lannister said:

Well this is obvious, isn't it? Only someone defending religious views like yourself would challenge this notion. In non-religious societies, women are likely to experience greater freedom and fewer safety concerns. When a woman openly shares her experiences, it's religious apologists, such as yourself, who stand to lose more than any other group.

sorry but data proves you wrong. For societies that are not in a virtual or formal state of war, women have far higher safety concerns in societies that have the highest non-religious population, in vast majority of the cases. 

Europe & North america have 20-30 times higher rape per capita and 1.5-2x more assaults per capita than India & SE Asia or the gulf arab countries, for example. 

I could say the same about you - when women share their experiences, its atheist rapist societies that stand to lose the most. 

 

[coffee_rules]

On 11/26/2023 at 11:13 PM, Lannister said:

When did Hinduism undergo reform? Reforming any religion is not possible when its core is built on the claims of the existence of god. Anti-discriminatory laws have been made possible thanks to democratic institutions. 

 

Secularism entails keeping religions separate from the state. Since it lacks evidence, governments shouldn't expend time and resources on religious matters. You need to question your BJP government about its attempts to bring religion under control and openly defecating all over the place. 

Hinduism has always been open to reform.  Right from Buddha, Mahaveera, Basavanna, Adi Shankaracharya have shown a mirror ro the age old practices that were no longer relevant. It is because of majority Hindus in India, that India chose to be a democratic nation, many articles in the 1935 GoI Act of British India  which was later morphed into our constitution in 1950  has laws that redifne practices related to Hinduism. India is secular (however bad form of it is in place) because the majority are Hindus. Not because Democracy had anything to do with Hindu reform.  The Hindu marriage and Family act was peacefully accepted by Hindus while Muslims have their own personall laws. Hindu temples under gpvernment control is not because of BJP, but a practice of British India and Moghul rule (jizya etc) which was later continued by Congress government. All articles of Indian constitution prevail Minoritarianism where the majority have no rights like right to education, to preach religion etc. 

 

The caste system is in practice is not written in any scripture. It became more of a social practice when rich zamindars of non-brahminical UCs exploited the so-called indigenous people - SC/STs  (which is another hogwash). under the British Raj. With the RajDharma earlier, there were checks and balances to not let the system go uncontrolled. We always had endogamy mainly to protect sampradays, properties and profession. Communities which thrived on certain professions (artisans, manufacturers, traders etc) didn't want outsiders to gain knowedge and thrive. But the exploitation of working class was mainly after British India. After 1947, a lot of such discrimination is outlawed and there is no hue and cry from Hindus. The fact that it is still effective in India is because of a class issue, not a religious issue. 

 

Even in India, commies and maoists are responsible for 1000s of deaths . Them being atheists have not stopped then participate in genocide. Jyoti Basu led in the forefront of  Marichjhapi massacre of tribals in WB. Kerala commies kill RSS/BJP men at will. Leftist rule in the wold over have killed more men than any religious rule.