When will this Shardul Thakur experiment end?

[sensible-indian]

8 minutes ago, Adamant said:

SA 2018 was a bad series, took two tailenders wickets in the first test

 

In second match where we got a subcontinent type pitch, he again failed in the second series and that was his biggest opportunity ever to win a match in SENA.

 

How is England 18 a good series, what was the impact? Alasitairs cook wicket?

Go and watch Lyons performance there if you want to see what an actual good series looks like, not just inflated averages, actual match winning performances.

 

You are being intellectually dishonest here.

 

Aus 2018, good performance .

 

Nz 2020got tailenders wicket

 

Aus 2020, again a good performance 

 

WTC FINALS? Those second innings wickets which had no impact?

 

How is SA 23 good performance, is this your bar? One tailender wicket?

2018 1st test - first test was played in a pukka pacers wicket. 

 

7 overs. 21 runs. 2 wickets.

1 over. 3 runs. 0 wickets.

 

My GOD...what a BAD performance. He should have taken a 5fer here. lol.

 

2018 2nd test. Centurion

 

That was the innings where he got a 4fer inspite of gazzilion dropped catches.

2nd innings he should have done better. Sadly he got injured. Split webbing. Not excusing him but it is what it is. A black mark on his career. Our pacers couldn't take wickets in 2nd innings while SA pacers did. 

 

England 2018. 1st test.

 

7 wickets for 121 runs at an average of 17 in Birghimgam.

 

England 2018. 2nd test.

 

Lord's green track. 1 innings. Wicketless for 68 runs.

 

England 2018. 3rd test. Got injured here.

 

1/47 in 23 overs 1 innings

 

England 2018. 4th test. Played with injury.

 

2/40 in 1st innings.

1/84 in 2nd innings

 

NZ test.

 

3/99 

 

Picked Henry Nicholls, Colin DeGrandhomme and Kylie Jamieson.

 

Not even a single tailender. 

 

Aus 2020.

 

Killer performance in each test. On track to be Man of the series until Syndey.

 

WTC finals 2021

 

He broke through when our pacers shat the bed. 2 wickets in first innings.

 

Had it not been for Ashwin, who knows what would have happened in the first innings.

 

Then 2nd innings, he picked 2 more. Could have been Williamson too but he took the DRS as a hail mary (in his own words) and somehow escaped.

 

Kohli LITERALLY TOOK ASHWIN out of the attack in 2nd innings while he was doing great and kept pacers till the end..and then dropped him for whole of England series,

 

---

 

Are YOU accusing me of intellectual dishonesty when you called Ashwin's WTC finals performance as impactless? 

 

Wow.

 

The facts are speaking VOLUMES here.

 

As I said, these discussions bore me.

 

But I have a bad habit of getting myself dragged into it.

 

Shardul Thakur more impactful than Ash in SENA?

 

LMAO.

 

 

[sensible-indian]

35 minutes ago, Adamant said:

How has that average of 27 helped us win anything, he has been the most ineffective spinner in English conditions. Any impact performances that you remember?

 

In Aus he has been fine, for sure had some impact there.

 

Failed tremendously is SA, I don’t know how are you defending that 39 average

 

Had zero impact in Nz as well, took tailenders wickets and never got us close to victory.

 

Shardul Thakur has already won us more SENA matches than Ashwin

 

Except for Southampton, he has performed well in England but India were never in a position to win games.

 

2014 test - Oval - He picked 3 wickets. We lost innings defeat.

 

2018 Birmingham - He picked 7 wickets. We still lost.

 

Lord's - Barely bowled. Green track.

 

Nottingham - We won. He barely bowled.

 

WTC FInals - He did great but we lost.

 

"Had zero impact in Nz as well, took tailenders wickets and never got us close to victory."

 

WRONG. See my other post.

Edited December 29, 2023 by sensible-indian

[AKane]

54 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

 

 

Running statsguru without context will lead to ridiculous outcomes.

If you excuse bad performances and look at the ok ones, it will lead to even more ridiculous outcomes.

 

That is why take the full career in SENA and it stinks.

[sensible-indian]

1 minute ago, AKane said:

If you excuse bad performances and look at the ok ones, it will lead to even more ridiculous outcomes.

 

That is why take the full career in SENA and it stinks.

Such a bad take.

 

Especially for spinners in SENA where they play support role 90-95% of the time.

 

Let's take your OWN logic:

 

Ashwin is a BAD SENA bowler cos his average stinks.

 

But since 2015 Aus series, Ashwin averages 30.57 in SENA.

 

So since 2015 series, Ashwin has turned into a GOOD SENA bowler cos his average is good. 

 

Fun fact: Lyon averages 30.64 in SENA for the same time period.

 

Again...this ain't how I judge players. I am just going by your own logic.

[BlueBlood]

Hi Ashwin (ahem sensible-indian).

 

I am not sure even Ashwin would defend his record as much as you.

 

When Warne, Murali or even Kuldeep bowls, you feel there's a chance for wickets.

 

When Ashwin bowls, you know the batsmen are breathing a sigh of relief in SENA conditions.

 

The difference is not what cheap wickets he takes. It's the impact on the given day.

 

The reality is, in SENA conditions only a few spinners excelled over the years and Ashwin is not one of them.

[Lone Wolf]

A country of 1.4 billion people & Shardul the 32 year old Thakur is your Fast bowling A/R lol... 

 

[AKane]

52 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

But since 2015 Aus series, Ashwin averages 30.57 in SENA.

 

 

Since last 4 years he averages 35 in 8 tests    Aus/NZ/SA

Since last 3 years  he averages  65 in 5 tests   Aus/SA

Since last 2 years he averages 84 in  3 tests    SA

 

That is why I too don't like to play the sincing/mincing game. Look at the whole picture. No slicing dicing career to try and get best results. Look at the whole career.

 

[sensible-indian]

33 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

 

Since last 4 years he averages 35 in 8 tests    Aus/NZ/SA

Since last 3 years  he averages  65 in 5 tests   Aus/SA

Since last 2 years he averages 84 in  3 tests    SA

 

That is why I too don't like to play the sincing/mincing game. Look at the whole picture. No slicing dicing career to try and get best results. Look at the whole career.

 

Very interesting. Let's explore.

 

You say:

 

Since last 4 years he averages 35 in 8 tests    Aus/NZ/SA

 

Reality: 

 

Last 4 years, he averages 31 in SENA.

 

Conveniently ignored WTC finals eh? I bet it would have made the list had he sucked there.

 

---

 

You say:

 

Since last 3 years  he averages  65 in 5 tests   Aus/SA

 

Reality:

 

He averages 43 in SENA.

 

That includes the ONE test against Aus in 2020

3 tests in SA 2021 where he was bad (which we all agree)

1 WTC finals where he was great

1 test in NZ where he was good

 

---

 

You say:

 

Since last 2 years he averages 84 in  3 tests

 

Reality:

 

Cos that only includes 4 games in SA lol.

 

3 games in a series where we all agree he was bad.

 

1 game recently where he was decent.

 

------------------

 

So according to you, 

 

WHOLE SENA data should be taken.

 

SENA data from 2015 should NOT be taken.

 

SENA data from 4 years, 3 years, 2 years can be taken to INVALIDATE a larger sample set (Since 2015)

 

And you say that slicing and dicing is pointless?

 

--

 

Let me repeat it again

 

Taking your own logic:

 

Ashwin is a BAD SENA bowler cos his average stinks.

 

But since 2015 series, Ashwin has turned into a GOOD SENA bowler cos his average is 30.

 

All according to your logic.

 

You want simple logic. You got simple logic.

 

But you don't like the output.

 

So you wanna run more filters.

 

What can I say? 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by sensible-indian

[sensible-indian]

52 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

Hi Ashwin (ahem sensible-indian).

 

I am not sure even Ashwin would defend his record as much as you.

 

When Warne, Murali or even Kuldeep bowls, you feel there's a chance for wickets.

 

When Ashwin bowls, you know the batsmen are breathing a sigh of relief in SENA conditions.

 

The difference is not what cheap wickets he takes. It's the impact on the given day.

 

The reality is, in SENA conditions only a few spinners excelled over the years and Ashwin is not one of them.

Let me set the records straight.

 

I am not saying Ashwin doesn't have his issues.

 

He has.

 

My point is posters run statsguru and come to all sorts of erroneous outcomes.

 

I am merely addressing that.

[sensible-indian]

Let me present a different perspective.

 

Say in an alternate reality, Ashwin did play the WTC finals in 2023.

 

(Let's be honest. He is the biggest reason India was even playing the finals.)

 

Let's say hypothetically, he had performed well (which was possible cos the pitch turned later on) and India won the game.

 

The same posters here running a gazzilion cricinfo statfilters would be singing a different tune even tho his STATS would be JUST the same.

 

The problem ain't the stats. Its what it is.

 

The problem is the inability to look at reality because it doesn't subscribe to your world view (which is  cuased by your emotions in the first place).

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by sensible-indian

[AKane]

21 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

You say:

 

Since last 3 years  he averages  65 in 5 tests   Aus/SA

 

Reality:

 

He averages 43 in SENA.

43 is bad

 

21 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

You say:

 

Since last 2 years he averages 84 in  3 tests

 

Reality:

 

Cos that only includes 4 games in SA lol.

 

Well we are now playing in SA.....

 

12 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Say in an alternate reality, Ashwin did play the WTC finals in 2023.

You can surmise about "alternate realities" - currently the reality is a test series in SA where his average is the worst even in SENA.

Edited December 29, 2023 by AKane

[sensible-indian]

7 minutes ago, AKane said:

43 is bad

 

 

Well we are now playing in SA.....

 

You can surmise about "alternate realities" - currently the reality is a test series in SA where his average is the worst even in SENA.

"43 is bad"

 

But you are a fan of LARGE sample sets, aren't you?

 

Average of 30 across 8 years with many tests is IGNORED.

 

But average of 43 across 6 tests is BAD.

 

"Well we are now playing in SA....."

 

Yeah.

 

He sucked in 2013 Joberg.

Was good in 2018.

Sucked in 2021.

Was decent in the game this series.

 

Overall SA is his WORST performing country in SENA. 

 

Who disagreed?

 

"You can surmise about "alternate realities" - currently the reality is a test series in SA where his average is the worst even in SENA."

 

Yeah....isn't it ironic that after all the back and forth reg Ashwin in SENA...it has come down to focusing on ONE country (SA) to show why Ashwin sucks in SENA.

[AKane]

4 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Yeah....isn't it ironic that after all the back and forth reg Ashwin in SENA...it has come down to focusing on ONE country (SA) to show why Ashwin sucks in SENA.

He is clearly bad in SENA - you have conveniently dropped the sample sets before 2015.

[AKane]

13 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

But you are a fan of LARGE sample sets, aren't you?

Fan of complete sets - not large and certainly not convenient sets.

 

13 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Was decent in the game this series.

Wicket of Coetzee in a inning with score at 391 (match basically done) is "decent"? Whatever.....smh.

Edited December 29, 2023 by AKane

[sensible-indian]

5 minutes ago, AKane said:

He is clearly bad in SENA - you have conveniently dropped the sample sets before 2015.

And you have conveniently dropped the sample sets after 2015...the actual important period for spinners once they get better.

 

Hes so clearly bad at SENA that he averages the same as Lyon in SENA since that period.

 

Well...you chose to bow down at the altar of blind stats...and here we are 

 

[sensible-indian]

11 minutes ago, AKane said:

Fan of complete sets - not large and certainly not convenient sets.

 

Wicket of Coetzee in a inning with score at 391 (match basically done) is "decent"? Whatever.....smh.

Yeah...either you will pick complete sets...or filter the hell out of it to get the results you want.

 

----

 

He was actually good in that test.

 

Barely got to bowl a proper spell.

 

Economical. Bowled more maidens than 3 of the pacers combined lol.

 

Almost got Elgar. A couple of catches going down.

 

Then picked a wicket.

 

The way you describe his bowling this test speaks volumes of how objectively you have analyzed his career.

Edited December 29, 2023 by sensible-indian

[AKane]

11 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Then picked a wicket.

Bravo!  Coetzee going a heave at 391/6 and caught in the deep. What a batsman, what a ball, what a wicket! And I get a lecture on objectivity.....

Edited December 29, 2023 by AKane

[sensible-indian]

12 minutes ago, AKane said:

Bravo!  Coetzee going a heave at 391/6 and caught in the deep. What a batsman, what a ball, what a wicket! And I get a lecture on objectivity.....

Exactly. Ignore the larger point. Focus on a random part.

 

Then wonder why objectivity left the chat.

[ash]

Why is Ashwin being discussed here continuously? Let him be a failure, and maybe we can replace him with Jaddu or Sundar. 
 

point tbd is Shardul the only All rounder we have, do we really need a bits and pieces all rounder or go with a proper batsman or proper bowler instead? 

[sensible-indian]

17 minutes ago, ash said:

Why is Ashwin being discussed here continuously? Let him be a failure, and maybe we can replace him with Jaddu or Sundar. 
 

point tbd is Shardul the only All rounder we have, do we really need a bits and pieces all rounder or go with a proper batsman or proper bowler instead? 

Because @Adamant was adamant about tagging me to prove how bad the stats are. 

 

I responded to him and this ensued.